Strength training: does it add body weight??? (Page 3)

D'oh! I think this was a response to my post, which I subsequently deleted. I didn't want JK to think I was fighting his battles for him. Although, he may want me on his team since I've been STing and all .

JK, I've got your back if you need me !

wurkit_gurl - 2007-10-09 11:33 AM

njk123 - 2007-10-09 12:27 PM It really amazes me that when people get ramped up on an issue, the posts are read in the way they WANT to interpret them.

Oh, and they also send you PMs and tell you that arguing on BT is the reason why you can't find a boyfriend. Just shows what classy, supportive team-players we have here on BT...sigh. Great spirit...

About the OP, if you post in a public forum you should expect your ideas to be challenged. no one (certainly not me) called you clueless or newbiew, you labeled yourself. I apologize if you took it in that way, but it was not the intent. I also responded to the OP in terms of his/her original question... 

you mentioned you focus on running correct? what is your goal? IOW what is what you would like to achieve with training? better performance?

Darn internet.  I don't make enough use of the sarcasm font I guess. 

It was a joke--playing on the fact that workit_gurl kept calling herself a "newbie" earlier in the thread.  It does not impart clulessness to you or anyone else in the thread.

There's an excellent article by Tom Holland about strength training and triathlon.  It's chapter 3.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-5LozmP4EAYC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=mark+allen+strength+training&source=web&ots=fsuTfOwpE7&sig=PO791CtPzKkjt0EJW3xngouA3dI#PPA37,M1 

When I run, bike & swim as much as Mark Allen BEFORE he started lifting weights, I'll reconsider.

Well, Mark Allen also believes in using a heart rate monitor. Are you waiting to run, bike and swim as much as him before you use one yourself as well?

cordova61 - 2007-10-09 1:51 PM

When I run, bike & swim as much as Mark Allen BEFORE he started lifting weights, I'll reconsider.

Well, Mark Allen also believes in using a heart rate monitor. Are you waiting to run, bike and swim as much as him before you use one yourself as well?

Still wouldn't happen.

cordova61 - 2007-10-09 12:51 PM

When I run, bike & swim as much as Mark Allen BEFORE he started lifting weights, I'll reconsider.

Well, Mark Allen also believes in using a heart rate monitor. Are you waiting to run, bike and swim as much as him before you use one yourself as well?

OK, sorta funny.  But pretty irrelevant too. 

FWIW, I don't believe in using my HR monitor like Mark does.  (Just post a separate thread on MAF and you'll have Rick needing to do more rail repair work.)

Ok Amiine, I've been looking online to try to find articles supporting or NOT supporting weight training for triathletes.

Funny thing is, I can't find ONE article or study from a university, or pro athlete which says weight training is BAD, or doesn't help in any way.

Since you seem to be so dead set against anything which supports weight training for the triathlete, can you please lead me to where you've gotten your information from which states that it is bad practice?

FYI, I was on the fence about this until I started looking it up. Help me here.

What Pinktrigal says is correct. In general, gaining muscle requires hard work and extra calories. This is especially true if you have an ectomorph body type which is typical of most endurance athletes.  Nevertheless, you seem very concerned about gaining weight, and if you are that concerned about gaining weight and your current training plan is meeting you goals, then you may want to skip weight training altogether.

pinktrigal - 2007-10-09 1:21 PM

amiine - 2007-10-09 2:10 PM

cordova61 - 2007-10-09 12:45 PM

There's an excellent article by Tom Holland about strength training and triathlon.  It's chapter 3.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-5LozmP4EAYC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=mark+allen+strength+training&source=web&ots=fsuTfOwpE7&sig=PO791CtPzKkjt0EJW3xngouA3dI#PPA37,M1 

excellent according to who? he didn't site one scientific study, research or credible source in the entire chapter! Without any of that to support his claims it is just a belief-based opinion

No offense Jorge, but just because one trainer's views don't stand up to your apparently vast knowledge about kinesiology and human biomechanics, it doesn't mean that they are incorrect. There are a ton of university educated trainers out there that do have good advice, even if they have not analysed every scientific study. Just an observation

Really? Why not? My knowledge about the topic is ok, and I am not questioning his knowledgeable or credentials, but I am questioning the credibility of his opinion because those are certainly NOT facts. If he states that he *believes* that ST might benefits tri training because so and so, that’s one thing. But you can't just state something as fact and don't provide any evidence to prove your claims; it doesn't work that way. But that doesn't stop people to do so causing a lot of confusion and misinformation.
How can he definitive state things such as:

Strength straining serves 3 primary purposes:
1.      corrects individual mechanical issues
2.      prevent injury
3.      improves performance

when 2 and 3 are highly debated and there is NOT definitive studies/research to support those claims. In fact there is more research suggesting those claims are incorrect!  

The studies are equivocal. I've read studies that said weight training helps and studies that have said weight training has no effect. I've never actually read anything that said weight training hurts performance. Be your own experiment. Try weight training, and if you like it, see if it helps your performance.

Please go back to page 1 and read the two things I've posted.  One is from an excercise physiologist, the other is (one of the many) ST discussions on the topic.

Jorge is not talking out of his azz.  He's simply communicating what he has seen and studied in his pursuit of this training thing.

You say there are no studies that show weight lifting hurts an endurance ethlete's performance.  Well, show me a study that shows it HELPS an athlete's endurance performance.  To the best of my knowledge (and those that are more in tune with the topic than I), there are none.  And the "benefits" of increased joint/tendon adaptations are inconclusive to boot.

We say this every time, if it is what you want, do it and enjoy.  But if you are doing it thinking it will improve your tri times, you are dillussional.  Especially considering the time it takes away from real training.

And for the weight loss???  Please ....... for my 175 pound fat azz here is a simple breakdown of caloric expenditures for a 1/2 hour workout:

Where I usually am:

So my 1/2 hour of training in most cases doubles or even triples the caloric expenditure that lifting of any sort would do, AND it is sport specific work which makes me faster and stronger in tris.

Here's what I know (or at least can remember off the top of my head):

Studies done have shown no performance benefits for endurance cycling in well-trained cyclists.

Studies have shown benefits for endurance cycling in untrained cyclists.  However, those untrained cyclists also showed benefits by cycling.  The line between "untrained" and "well-trained" is unknown.

Studies have shown some benefits for endurance running from certain types of strength training--mostly plyometrics (jumping, bounding, etc.).  This is due to enhanced running economy.

Seems to be less reasearch, but I am also unaware of any studies showing improved performance for endurance swimming.  (And am aware of at least a couple which failed to show any performance benefit similar to the cycling result.)

For the swimmers & bikers specifically, the athlete's show improved "strength" by whatever measure the study used.  However, this does not translate into better performance on the bike or in the water.

Also, there are no studies that demonstrate any prophylactic injury prevention benefits for overuse injuries (those most likely to be sustained by an endurance athlete).

other links: http://www.masterstriathlete.com/strength.html

http://home.hia.no/~stephens/exphys.htm

http://www.physfarm.com/newsite1/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=34&Itemid=35

I have a lot more links at home, that I can post later...

pinktrigal - 2007-10-09 1:02 PM

amiine - 2007-10-09 2:48 PM

pinktrigal - 2007-10-09 1:21 PM

amiine - 2007-10-09 2:10 PM

cordova61 - 2007-10-09 12:45 PM

There's an excellent article by Tom Holland about strength training and triathlon.  It's chapter 3.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-5LozmP4EAYC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=mark+allen+strength+training&source=web&ots=fsuTfOwpE7&sig=PO791CtPzKkjt0EJW3xngouA3dI#PPA37,M1 

excellent according to who? he didn't site one scientific study, research or credible source in the entire chapter! Without any of that to support his claims it is just a belief-based opinion

No offense Jorge, but just because one trainer's views don't stand up to your apparently vast knowledge about kinesiology and human biomechanics, it doesn't mean that they are incorrect. There are a ton of university educated trainers out there that do have good advice, even if they have not analysed every scientific study. Just an observation

Really? Why not? My knowledge about the topic is ok, and I am not questioning his knowledgeable or credentials, but I am questioning the credibility of his opinion because those are certainly NOT facts. If he states that he *believes* that ST might benefits tri training because so and so, that’s one thing. But you can't just state something as fact and don't provide any evidence to prove your claims; it doesn't work that way. But that doesn't stop people to do so causing a lot of confusion and misinformation.
How can he definitive state things such as:

Strength straining serves 3 primary purposes:
1.      corrects individual mechanical issues
2.      prevent injury
3.      improves performance

when 2 and 3 are highly debated and there is NOT definitive studies/research to support those claims. In fact there is more research suggesting those claims are incorrect!  

I would say absolutely correct to all 3 statements based on the education I received in university and college. Can you provide the scientific studies for why these are not correct statements? If you can, then maybe we should rewrite all the information from courses I took in school

 While those three statements may be true in that general context, the question of this thread is whether

 Strength training serves 3 primary purposes "in tri training".  Your college material probably didn't address that.

Actually, the question in this thread was whether strength training adds body weight.  But we veered off that track hours ago. 

Rick, relax dude. I said that the studies are inconclusive, and there are plenty of studies that show no benefit. My comment about not finding studies that show that it doesn't hurt endurance was for the benefit of those who may be reading this thread and trying to learn something from it who may be worried that embarking on a weight training program will slow them down. 

The stuff I read says that weight training definitely increases the strength of joints.

The fat loss thing. The benefits of weight training for fat loss is not in how many calories are expended during actual exercise, and in fact, you'll probably expend more calories during an endurance session than you would during a weight training session. However, where weight training wins out is in caloric expenditure after exercise. Studies showed that the metabolism is raised higher and stays raised much longer after weight training (and also interval training) than after endurance (noninterval) training. Weight training causes more muscle damage than endurance training, so the body needs to burn more calories after a weight training session to repair the muscle tissue than after an endurance session. This is not to say that endurance training has no place in a fat loss plan. It's been shown doing a weight training, especially a circuit weight training session where the heart rate is kept high, immediately before a slower-paced endurance session will actually magnify the benefits of the endurance session.