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2007-10-12 11:11 AM

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Subject: good article about economy/efficiency

This (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/fashion/11Best.html?ex=1349841600&en=d866a9b90d89c2f9&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink)  was posted at ST. I read it and even though you should diregard this piece:

They know that standard training programs, which emphasize speed and distance, improve the other key factors in performance: VO2 max and the anaerobic, or lactate, threshold, an indicator of how intensely a person can exercise >> because lactate threshold relies mainly on the aerobic energy system (hence using the anaerobic term is incorrect)

the article is interesting nevertheless. In the past year I've argued how athletes shouldn't really changed their natural form (which is hard to define to begin with) but to work more towards imporving it through training. (doing more of it) While others argue that changing your form dramatically (i.e. chi or evolution running) should make you more efficient.



2007-10-12 11:25 AM
in reply to: #1004601

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Subject: RE: good article about economy/efficiency
Thanks, Jorge.   I think Faris Al Sultan has proven that you don't need a nice looking form to be fast.  That guy just runs ugly.
2007-10-12 11:44 AM
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Subject: RE: good article about economy/efficiency

Birkierunner - 2007-10-12 11:25 AM Thanks, Jorge.   I think Faris Al Sultan has proven that you don't need a nice looking form to be fast.  That guy just runs ugly.

And I don't think his cadence is anywhere near 180/min either.  I think some counts at HI either last year or the one prior put him in the 140-150 ballpark.  That, of course, could just make him an exception or indicate that he could be much faster with some more work.

2007-10-12 11:46 AM
in reply to: #1004629

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Subject: RE: good article about economy/efficiency
Birkierunner - 2007-10-12 11:25 AM

Thanks, Jorge.   I think Faris Al Sultan has proven that you don't need a nice looking form to be fast.  That guy just runs ugly.


Ditto for Dave Scott...
2007-10-12 1:03 PM
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Subject: RE: good article about economy/efficiency
JohnnyKay - 2007-10-12 1:44 PM

And I don't think his cadence is anywhere near 180/min either.  I think some counts at HI either last year or the one prior put him in the 140-150 ballpark.  That, of course, could just make him an exception or indicate that he could be much faster with some more work.



Jorge, thanks for the link

Not sure about Faris - IIRC, in 2005 it was between 80-84 everytime they showed him. I may be mistaken, but I don't think it was quite as low as 70-75.

Shane
2007-10-12 1:11 PM
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Subject: RE: good article about economy/efficiency

Birkierunner - 2007-10-12 11:25 AM Thanks, Jorge.   I think Faris Al Sultan has proven that you don't need a nice looking form to be fast.  That guy just runs ugly.

No kidding, it does look awkward but the guy can certainly run. I think that unless you have mechanical issues (causing you injuries) and I am not talking about the typical "I just start running and I am getting shin splints" type of thing; you shouldn't really bother with changing your natural running 'style', buying newtons, etc. I remember a few years ago I read and article by Bobby McGee and he advised running leaning forward (at least in that article) which I did for a few months and battle terrible calves injuries. Sure enough I went back to run 'my' way and the calves pain went away within a few runs.

Now when I a do a running clinic I focus more on what aspect can be ‘improved’ after I watch someone running. I suggest playing with cadence (80-95 per leg), work on posture rather than gait and of course I make them run more! that seems to correct/improve their form by itself…



2007-10-12 1:43 PM
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Subject: RE: good article about economy/efficiency
gsmacleod - 2007-10-12 1:03 PM
JohnnyKay - 2007-10-12 1:44 PM

And I don't think his cadence is anywhere near 180/min either.  I think some counts at HI either last year or the one prior put him in the 140-150 ballpark.  That, of course, could just make him an exception or indicate that he could be much faster with some more work.

Jorge, thanks for the link Not sure about Faris - IIRC, in 2005 it was between 80-84 everytime they showed him. I may be mistaken, but I don't think it was quite as low as 70-75. Shane

Well, I'm just relaying somebody else's count.  It was only slightly higher than I recalled.

2005 - 6 Faris observations all at 76.

2006 - 4 observations.  3 at 76, 1 at 80.

2007-10-12 1:44 PM
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Subject: RE: good article about economy/efficiency
I agree with you. Tried the other route (trying to improve form through chi, pose, etc) with terrible results and a multiple of injuries. Went back to running like I do and training more, no injuries and just an overall better performance.
2007-10-12 1:54 PM
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Subject: RE: good article about economy/efficiency
auto208562 - 2007-10-12 1:44 PM

I agree with you. Tried the other route (trying to improve form through chi, pose, etc) with terrible results and a multiple of injuries. Went back to running like I do and training more, no injuries and just an overall better performance.


...And yet there are many others, myself included, who report just the opposite. I think it's just a matter of try what works for YOU. For some of us, that just happens to be Chi, Pose or EVO.
2007-10-12 2:02 PM
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Subject: RE: good article about economy/efficiency
I agree with what you said too.

scoobysdad - 2007-10-12 11:54 AM

auto208562 - 2007-10-12 1:44 PM

I agree with you. Tried the other route (trying to improve form through chi, pose, etc) with terrible results and a multiple of injuries. Went back to running like I do and training more, no injuries and just an overall better performance.


...And yet there are many others, myself included, who report just the opposite. I think it's just a matter of try what works for YOU. For some of us, that just happens to be Chi, Pose or EVO.
2007-10-12 2:06 PM
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Subject: ...
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2007-10-12 2:24 PM
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Subject: RE: good article about economy/efficiency
JohnnyKay - 2007-10-12 3:43 PM

Well, I'm just relaying somebody else's count.  It was only slightly higher than I recalled.

2005 - 6 Faris observations all at 76.

2006 - 4 observations.  3 at 76, 1 at 80.



Like I said, I may have been mistaken

I do remember thinking in 05 that there was no way he was going to win with the long awkward strides - figured that with how good Peter looked and how terrible Faris looked, that he was just going to blow up.

Shane
2007-10-12 3:30 PM
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Subject: RE: good article about economy/efficiency

Jorge, good article.

"Dr. Coyle finds that the most economical cyclists have an abundance of a particular type of muscle fiber, so-called slow twitch. It is not known whether other types of muscle can convert to slow twitch with training."

I've read that fibers can actually convert, but I'm skeptical. I've also read that fibers don't truly convert but rather take on the properties of other fibers. For instance, endurance training will cause the Type IIA fibers, those that are "in between" pure fast twitch and pure slow twitch, to behave more like Type I fibers, the pure slow twitch, and the Type IIB fibers, the pure fast twitch, to behave like IIAs. Apparently, it also works the other way - lots of heavy lifting will cause IIAs to behave like IIBs.

"But, he said, it may be that after years of training, nerves are directed to allow more leg muscles to participate in pedaling. The result might be greater riding economy."

This is certainly true in powerlifting and weightlifting and it's how the lifters in the lighter weight classes can build strength without adding muscle size. The idea here is to build lots of volume but never taking a lift to failure and controlling fatigue, which can involve shorter lifting sessions done several times a day. The Bulgarian weightlifting team trained up to four times a day using 30-minute sessions. The result is that the nervous system gets really good at recruiting the muscles necessary to lift heavy weights. I don't see why this same principle wouldn't work to some extent in endurance sports.

2007-10-12 4:14 PM
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Subject: RE: good article about economy/efficiency
Just from personal experience, I'll side with the "natural" camp for the most part. However my coach has worked with me a bit on my running form (slight forward lean, higher cadence) and I feel more efficient and am avoiding injury.

Everyone's different, I guess.
2007-10-12 4:22 PM
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Subject: RE: good article about economy/efficiency
Be careful using the Bulgarians as a example to support any training method. If I recall correctly the team has been repeatedly caught for doping. With artifical training aids any conclusions from their program may be suspect.
2007-10-12 10:38 PM
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Subject: RE: good article about economy/efficiency
Jorge,

Thanks for the link, I havn't read it yet, but I will. I see this thread potentially degnerating into a pro/con for changing form.

I'll just add that I have never been a good runner, never enjoyed it and as I got older it caused me more and more pain. last summer I took running lessons from Bobby McGee in a group setting and it was a fantastic experience. Having someone watch you and be able to give immediate correction is a whole lot different than trying to do things you read about.

I know I've talked about that experience here before, but even with the running clinics with direct feedback, it was about 4 weeks before I finally "got it" interms of the running form he described or rather, prescribed, specifically for me.

A lifetime of hyperlordosis and poor lumbar posture is not easily corrected so for a subgroup of people...probably those people purchasing Chi Running and paying BObby McGee $100+ for running lessons... the change in form is helpful and for me prolonged my running career ( I eventually did quit running)

For most people though, if it aint broke, don't fix it!

So thanks for the link... and if you can't expect exercise physiologists to agree on 'lactate threshold' vs. 'anaerobic threshold', I wouldn't expect a journalist to come anywhere close ot explaining it well.


2007-10-13 12:18 AM
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Subject: RE: good article about economy/efficiency
I tend to agree with you, Jorge, that most peoples' running form is most likely what's going to work best for them and it will improve itself over time with more training. Case in point; my wife has been steadily getting faster and looking at running photos of her from several months ago and photos from more recently she even said herself that her posture has changed dramatically. Haven't checked out the article but I'm going to bookmark it for later!
2007-10-13 2:57 PM
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Subject: RE: good article about economy/efficiency

I agree that if your running form isn't causing bio-mechanical problems, and you are comfortable with it, there is no real reason to change. But if you're in that small group of runners whose style is impeding your forward movement, speed or otherwise keeping you from being as fast and competitive as you want to be, then you should get help improving your form to that end. If you have really bad form, then perhaps dramatic changes are just what you need. Just because you can turn in fast run times with your bad form doesn't mean you wont do even better with the same training and effort with a better, more efficient running form/technique.

I was my own best example of being fast with bad form. As a college distance runner in my younger days, I had what was agreed by all who saw me run as the worst form they'd ever seen. But I was running 2 mile races in the 8:50 range and 3 mile races in the 13:50 range. Some 30 odd years ago coaches tried to "fix" my form by tweaking different aspects of it, none of which made much difference. So I just stuck with my "natural" form. In the past couple years I have returned to running type sports, mainly triathlon, and I have discovered that the know-how to fix my form now exists. Evolution Running prescribes a good manner of adjusting to a more efficient and productive running form, but I believe most people who try it suffer injuries in the transition because they didn't start with the exercises to strengthen the leg muscles you are about to use in a new and different way. Even then you need to take it slowly and allow your body to adjust to the new from. It worked very well for me, but it took several months to get used to.

I will certainly never run a 13:54 3 mile again, far from it. But I do believe I'm running faster with my new form, and when I get injured it's due to training too hard, not bad form.

2007-10-13 4:09 PM
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Subject: RE: good article about economy/efficiency
I took a beginner's running class when I first started trying to run (that was just over 3 years ago- wow!), and the coaches were very much of the mindset of not messing with one's natural form, that it will develop over time on its own.  And given some advice I was recently given about my own running form by a friend from race photos he saw, good core strength also helps with run form (my off season project).
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