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2007-11-05 9:09 AM
in reply to: #1038124

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
foolproof - 2007-11-05 10:06 AM

amiine - 2007-11-05 9:50 AM

Drafting sucks but it is what it is. Between big fields, not enough marshals, some RDs not caring, crazy wave orders, flat courses and us not policing ourselves this will continue at most races. 

I wish there were more people like Jorge.

I don't!!!  Because then there would be MORE people handing me my A$$ in races.  But he speaks wise and true words.



2007-11-05 9:12 AM
in reply to: #1037997

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
foolproof - 2007-11-05 7:59 AM

I hate to even be in here, pathetic Oly Triathlete that I am, but ... I am USAT and I'll be at MiamiMan next weekend.

I've called a lot of drafting penalty's at the races I've done so far, mostly because I try and listen to the athletes, and everyone seems to want a fair race. 

I'd love some input ... call them or let it pass?  I'm kinda a rules girl.



Call em all!  Unless it's #652...he doesn't even know how to draft so I promise it's an accident
2007-11-05 9:33 AM
in reply to: #1038132

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Master
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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

Marvarnett - 2007-11-05 10:09 AM
foolproof - 2007-11-05 10:06 AM

amiine - 2007-11-05 9:50 AM

Drafting sucks but it is what it is. Between big fields, not enough marshals, some RDs not caring, crazy wave orders, flat courses and us not policing ourselves this will continue at most races. 

I wish there were more people like Jorge.

I don't!!!  Because then there would be MORE people handing me my A$$ in races.  But he speaks wise and true words.

Dan, if I were honored enough to call a race you were doing, you'd get a total bye.  Unless you were racing Jorge.  Hometown rules, my friend! 

<<< Bahston! 

Not.

2007-11-05 9:35 AM
in reply to: #1038135

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

mykle15 - 2007-11-05 10:12 AM 

 #652...

On the books ... .  On the radar now ... .  I'm the chick in the red shirt. 

2007-11-05 9:41 AM
in reply to: #1038129

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

bryancd - 2007-11-05 10:09 AM No, you are right, maybe zero tolerance is the only answer and it's good to hear that USAT officials do make an effort to identify a clean rider trying to escape a pack vs. a suspect rider just sitting off soemone's wheel.

It is.  Dun't matter, traffic, late start on the drive, din't make to the Athletes meeting, first race ... IMHO ... status quo.   Rules are the rules. It's hard to be a Virgo.

And yes, I want you all to have the race I'd want.  If I were FOP. 

But, it's clean riding.  IMHO, I respect a USAT official who has race experience.

And now, were showing up on the run.  Don't wear ear buds.   

I've so badly hyjacked this tread.  I'm sorry!!!!  Welll, keyed up makes for a good race Official, yes?  Shoot. Hyjack again.  Mea culpa.

2007-11-05 9:58 AM
in reply to: #1037124

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

One technical alternative is GPS tracking devices on each bike like they have in the Tour.

If multiple signals enter a certain zone, they generate a log that is displayed on a large board out on the course a certain distance before the penalty tent.

I don't know how exact civilian GPS systems are, so I don't know if that would work.  But its a thought.  Plus you would be tracking 10-12x the number of signals at IM vs TdF (2200 riders vs 189 riders).



2007-11-05 10:00 PM
in reply to: #1037124

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

IO was really disappointed with both the athletes drafting and the course marshals at IMFL.  I come out of the water with the swim of my life and settle into the bike only to be swallowed up by a pack of 50+ about 20 miles in.  I made one attempt to ride off the front, mostly out of frustration and anger.  After 2min of powering I settled into my pace again and hoped I wouldn't see them again.  About 5min later I got sucked back in and  just let myself drift back until I was off the back.  They very slowly pulled away off into the distance.  This was a blatant pack of cheaters...riding 5 wide and wheel to wheel.  There was one girl in the pack who seemed especially happy to be cheating...even laughing and smiling.  Eventually a course marshal cam up from behind.  the pack was a good 1/2 mile ahead by now and the marshals made their way up.  At the next penalty tent there were two dudes pulled over...TWO!  If I were an official on the course I wouldn't even bother with the damn red card.  I'd pull the entire pack over on the spot.   I think that officials should start using digital cameras and video to document drafting and assess penalties to everyone they can identify after the finish. 

Everyone knows the rules, some people make an honest effort to ride legal and still end up in a bad position from time to time.  Others take advantage of the numbers knowing that the chances of getting a drafting penalty are small and choose to be cheaters.  The race organizers obviously have a conflict of interest when it comes to addressing drafting issues so I don't expect them to do anything about it.  I think it's time for someone to do something to expose the people who intentionally cheat...an I've got some ideas.

 

2007-11-05 10:56 PM
in reply to: #1037124

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
This is where the BOP does a good job. When we have no one ahead of us and no one behind us for miles we can not cheat.

Though I will admit at Spirit of Racine I was riding next to a girl for about a mile just talking. We kinda hung out together going back and forth but working on staying out of each others draft zones but at time for time we could been called for blocking even though there was no one around to block. .

I almost thought I was going to get busted when a guy on a motorcycle came up.

Chicago tri said it best if you make the effort not to draft they will let it go but if your blanet they will nail you.

You would think the mass start of an IM would help this out letting the course spread out more. In wave start you constantly have faster people passing you rather than the faster people getting out in front and staying out.
2007-11-06 5:38 AM
in reply to: #1037124

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2007-11-06 5:44 AM
in reply to: #1039545

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

chirunner134 - 2007-11-05 10:56 PM This is where the BOP does a good job. When we have no one ahead of us and no one behind us for miles we can not cheat.

 

Amen brother!  Drafting is pretty much a non-issue for me as there aren't many people on the course I could hang with for very long anyway.   Besides, I'd rather finish in 15:57 and know I didn't cheat than to finish in 15:47 and know I didn't do it all myself. 

But I understand the frustration and anger of the post prior to yours.  If I were "racing" and not just trying to finish I would be PO'd if I played by the rules and others didn't.  I think the idea of video cameras on the course is a marvelous idea. 

Consider this announcement prior to the race:  "We have put 15 video cameras at random places along the course that will record coninuously.  After the race, officials will review all the video and penalties will be assessed accordinly.  Two or more incidents will result in DQ"  And then see how many people want to risk drafting!

~Mike

2007-11-06 6:27 AM
in reply to: #1039658

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

I saw two packs on the short 10 mile out and back section on 388.  One of about 30 people ahead of me, and one of about 25 behind.  The one in front was definitely blatantly cheating, and they were probably the big pack Joel was talking about.  The other was behind me and I fully expected them to catch me en masse ....... but they never did even though we were still 35 miles from the finish.  I had a few groups of three or four pass me that were close, but they also got nailed by marshalls not long after they passed me.

Unlike Joel, I saw a lot more people get nailed by marshalls, but not the big group.  The most I saw in the tent at once was around 5 at one of them.  They only had so many marshalls though, and with such a big spread out field on a single loop course it is really hard to police everyone.

All I know is personally that #823, some dude named "Lee" on his number was a blatant fuc-tard cheater.  I passed him around 30 miles and all he was doing was jumping from one wheel to another and sucking it hard.  I blasted past him around there at about 28 - 30 mph and yelled "draft this!"  I didn't see him again until around mile 70 ...... when he passed me again sucking another wheel.  What an azzhole ..... hope he was happy with his 5:10 wheel sucking ...... (I checked his results later).



Edited by Daremo 2007-11-06 6:29 AM


2007-11-06 8:07 AM
in reply to: #1037124

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

Sorry for the off topic start/end of this post... I get to my eyewitness drafting by paragraph 2. 

I'm reluctant to admit this, because it turned out not to be the best of ideas, but I drove the bike course during the race on saturday.  I wanted to see the course, and saturday was the only time slot I had to do it... plus I was allured by the idea of seeing the race in action.  What I didn't realize what that a lot of the course had no shoulder whatsoever, so I had to drive most of it in the left lane (fortunately there was no oncoming traffick).  I was careful not to get in anyone's way, but I wouldn't recommend it and wouldn't do it again.  Anyway, I confess this only to say that I literally saw the entire field on the bike... and not just as they zoomed by in a blur... but as I drove slowly past them about 5-10mph faster.

I started my drive when the last biker left T1, and I came in just after the first bikes.  So basically, I saw the entire field on the course except for the leaders.  There were 4 large peletons that I saw... one of them was huge and was clearly blatantly drafting.  Riders in the middle and back were just coasting, pedaling for a few strokes, and coasting some more.  There were inches between wheels... not exactly safe on the tri bikes.

There were also probably about a dozen individual riders or small groups (3-4) that were clearly sucking wheel.

But I would say that the vast majority of riders were riding close together but within the rules.  There were hundreds of small packs of riders that could have easily assembled into draft groups but were consciencously following the rules.  And not just in the back of the pack... spread throughout the pack.

My thought was that I'd like to see a yellow card / red card type of system... where the official assesses the severity of the infraction and hands at a commensurate penalty.  Yeah you can get stuck in a group if come out of the water with lots of others.  But 50 riders inches apart is gross and intentional violation of the rules and I'd like to see them sit for 15 minutes or more.

Anyway... sorry for being a and having my car out there.  All I can say is that the shoulder-less roads should be closed to local traffick.  It wasn't a huge deal since I was in no hurry and since I was giving a huge berth to the riders... but I could totally see some guy who's late for work being a real danger.

Josh

2007-11-06 8:20 AM
in reply to: #1039507

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
TH3_FRB - 2007-11-05 10:00 PM

Everyone knows the rules, some people make an honest effort to ride legal and still end up in a bad position from time to time.  Others take advantage of the numbers knowing that the chances of getting a drafting penalty are small and choose to be cheaters.  The race organizers obviously have a conflict of interest when it comes to addressing drafting issues so I don't expect them to do anything about it.  I think it's time for someone to do something to expose the people who intentionally cheat...an I've got some ideas.

I agree, but I think it is becoming the standard to hear the classic excuses: "well many were doing it so do I" or a more valid one but still wrong "either you join and cheat to compete or ride legal and forfeit your chances to place, win, etc”.

As far as the RDs, I really think they don’t really care. 1st of all some of the size of the fields is just becoming unmanageable unless you use wave starts, but also because as much as we like to feel special we are just AGers not in contention for $$. IOW as long as they penalize a few they can get away with it and many cheaters realized this so they take their chances which in most cases are pretty good cuz they most likely won’t get nailed. Otherwise they would be a lot more strict and just DQ if you are blatantly drafting and/or penalize you with 10 min or more.

Anyway I'll just bring my road bike with me this weekend just case we have the tour the 70.3!

BTW, congrats; you had a kick azz race with a killer run!

2007-11-06 8:55 AM
in reply to: #1037124

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

I think a lot comes down to each individual. It brings up a great question. Would you cheat and blatenly draft if you knew you could get a Kona slot from it?

How would you feel if you knew that is what got you the slot? Would it be worth it?

2007-11-06 9:01 AM
in reply to: #1037124

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

I'll add my .02 cents here and what I noticed during the race. 

First of all, for the first few miles of any Ironman, it's really, really difficult not to get caught in a group of riders, just because of the sheer numbers.  So I don't really fault anyone for that.  However, like others, I saw a lot of riders who were obviously sucking wheel.  There was one instance where a group of about 15 came by me and I got caught in the middle of them for a bit.  I was gradually letting them go by so I could get out the back and be legal, when a race official drove up and started yelling at everyone to break it up and was waving her camera for emphasis.  That was the one and only time I saw an official on the course.  Another time I had to stop at a port-a-john and as I laid my bike down a huge group of at least 50 riders went past 4-5 abreast and wheel to wheel.  Not one of them looked like they had a thought in the world about drafting.  Was it a little disheartening?  Maybe, but it is what it is and you just have to shut up and ride.  It's not going to change much on a course like that without hills to blow up the packs and without more officials to monitor the course more closely.  I will have to say though, that I saw more people in penalty tents at this race than any other I've done.

As an aside, at the Lake Stevens 70.3 race earlier this year, the lead group of 5 pro men went by me during the second loop of the ride and there wasn't more than a few inches between any of their wheels.  They were so blatantly drafting it was almost funny as they went by.  Guess it's just some people's human nature to try and get away with whatever they can in order to win.



Edited by Flyboy 2007-11-06 9:02 AM
2007-11-06 9:23 AM
in reply to: #1039760

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
Thanks for your insights, Josh. As for cars on the road, I was concerned after driving the course on Thursday that there could be issues with cars on the two lane roads, but everyone was very courteous and gave us plenty of space.

However twice I saw riders intentionally drop in behind vehicles (a truck/horse trailer, and another large industrial/farm truck) to take advantage of their draft.

I came out of the water in 1:10. So front of mid-pack, I guess. Over the first 60 miles I didn't see any "packs", but did see some isolated drafting (one or two people sitting awfully close), and twice found myself going above my goal effort to clear congestion because I was concerned about getting into a drafting situation.

When I hit the out-and-back, the top AGers were coming back. There was a huge pack riding very tight, followed by a handful of riders riding legally and then an even bigger pack. I imagine these were the packs that Joel was encountering.

On 388, between 77 and 79, I again encountered a couple of isolated incidents and found myself at one point getting caught up with three riders where I felt the need to push the pace to clear them.

With 2200+ people on the course, and a flat course at that, there's going to be some amount of drafting, but the big packs are inexcusable in my opinion. Those that were in them knew it, and made a conscious decision to stay in them.

Anyway, I have no regrets about IMF, but I'm looking forward to the mountains and Lake Placid next year.

scott


2007-11-06 9:50 AM
in reply to: #1037124

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

Rules are rules and I think if a official sees someone drafting give them a penalty.  I can only imagine not drafting in an IM with the fact that 2200 people start swimming together and the massive groups that enter together not drafting to me seems almost impossible.  As others have stated if the first person goes by with 10 people following you drop back 10 places but in my mind so be it.  Either work harder to stay in front or drop back and pick them off one at a time.  Unfortunately there are adults that feel that they don' t need to follow the rules because they are not racing for a podium spot or Kona.  I think this is wrong but that is just me.  It is just like the people who are told no headphones but hide them and run with them anyways.  You can't pick and choose what rules to follow.

What I want to know is if you take 2200 riders and space them evenly out over the course and leave a gap for the drafting zone how long of a line that would be?  Seems like it would take up a good chunk of a 50+ mile loop in an IM.

2007-11-06 10:40 AM
in reply to: #1037124

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

I don't get the "they don't want to pi$$ people off by enforcing the rules" arguement. The race fills up in a matter of hours. Even if they enfore the rules with an iron fist, that sell-out would still happen.

If you pay thousands of dollars to enter, prepare for, and travel to an IM, put in the months of work to get ready, and then you cheat and earn a DQ by drafting... IMO you get what you deserve. It sucks to be a dumba$$ sometimes. The people Joel described that were clearly enjoying the peleton probably have a completely different opinion and think people need to "lighten up". And they'll keep doing it until they get pulled from the course and sent packing with a DQ.

I think cameras are an excellent idea. Then when they show up the next day b!thcing about thier DQ they can see for themselves....

2007-11-06 12:57 PM
in reply to: #1037124

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

Hey Everyone,

I can't say that I saw the large "pelotons" drafting, but saw plenty of small packs just absolutely keeping a tight pace line.

It really pissed me off. Some of them were people I had passed during the 1st half of the ride (before it got windy). I was fading some during the last 30 miles, and it was disheartening to see these groups pulling away from me.

Towards the end as I was fatigued, I definitely realized more than once that I was less than 4 bikes lengths from the person in front of me. You know what, it happens... But when I realized it I backed off, or pressed ahead of the person. Not the same as 4+ people parked on each others wheel and powering ahead of everyone else.

I still had a great bike ride (for me), and was happy overall.

Other stuff: Most of the car traffic on the course was not a problem, but there were some scary moments with people cutting across the course (from uncontrolled driveways/streets), and also with some vehicles bogarding the street. Most drivers were very good about not affecting the bike traffic. There was monsterous Bus, that was sopped into the Mother of all flatbeds that was driving slowly on a road with no should, and with oncoming traffic. At that point, all the riders were bunched up trying to pass down the middle of the road between 2 directional traffic. THAT SUCKED.

Also,  if you don't want me to pee in the woods, put more porto-potties out there! 



Edited by dhyte 2007-11-06 12:58 PM
2007-11-06 6:36 PM
in reply to: #1039948

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
kproudfoot - 2007-11-06 10:50 AM

What I want to know is if you take 2200 riders and space them evenly out over the course and leave a gap for the drafting zone how long of a line that would be?  Seems like it would take up a good chunk of a 50+ mile loop in an IM.

Maybe not as much as you think.  2200 riders spread over 112 miles can occupy nearly 269 feet per rider, so subtracting each rider's bike, that still leaves a large gap.  Or do it this way;  if you assume a 30 foot gap plus 6 feet of space per bike length, then 2200 riders will take up 15 miles if they are equally spaced.  OK, maybe that is a good chunk!  But then, with a bunch of people drafting or passing then it is assuredly a lot less than 15 miles.  There was drafting at Lake Placid, but not enough to lose sleep over.  The worst area was on the Haselton Road out-and-back.

 

 



Edited by max 2007-11-06 6:38 PM
2007-11-06 8:24 PM
in reply to: #1037124

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
yeah except that within about 1 1/2 hours of the first guy out of the water all 2200 riders will be on the bike course. I bet its more like 2200 in 35 miles or so.

if it is 35 miles that gives you only 84 feet per rider and each rider need about 26 feet for no drafting. It leaves 58 feet if they are perfectly spaced out but MOP are too bunchy. since I bet half come out of the water with 30 - 45 minutes of each other.

Edited by chirunner134 2007-11-06 8:26 PM


2007-11-07 9:52 AM
in reply to: #1037124

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
IMO- The race director needs to change the course to include some hills. If they had the course continue north on 79 PAST the highway 20 turn, there are miles and miles of very nice rollers that would cut down the drafting quite a bit. I never knew about these (being that I'm from Atlanta), until I did a few training rides in PC Beach this summer with some friends that live down there. Don't know how hard it would be to incorprate that area in Washington County..... Part of the race already runs through there anyway...
2007-11-07 10:19 AM
in reply to: #1037124

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
What got to me is how hardcore the officials acted like they were going to be about drafting and how it did not seem they were enforcing penalties on only a handful of the blatant cheaters. At the mandatory athletes meeting, the head referee did a powerpoint presentation on drafting and discussed the penalty cards and tents, etc. I was determined to get through the course (1) on my own power and (2) without the shame of being in one of the tents. To the Ebro turn, it was very difficult to keep the four bike length distance logistically from a narrow road and the number of people. I was quick out of the water and was going to get worked by people flying by me on the bike anyway, but the sheer number of pelotons and people unashamedly riding wheels was disappointing. I finished the bike in 6:20 and only saw two people in the penalty tents, though the drafting persisted all the way until the 388 turn at mile 88. Unintentional and intentiaonl drafting are two different things and unless you do a course with two lanes closed off, the unintentional will happen. However, the rules were there at IMFL, the officials acted like they were going to enforce it, people intentionally drafted, and very few seemed to be punished. You cannot deter this kind of activity without at least the semblance of enforcement.

On a related note, the first page write-up in the Athlete's Guide on relieving yourself on the bike course outside of a port-a-pot and the accompanying two pots per aid station was a joke. Seriously, I do not remember seeing a single stop without a waiting line.


2007-11-07 10:29 AM
in reply to: #1037124

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

Damn people what is all that.

If it is 35 miles that gives you only 84 feet per rider and each rider need about 26 feet for no drafting. It leaves 58 feet if they are perfectly spaced out but MOP are too bunchy. since I bet half come out of the water with 30 - 45 minutes of each other.

Maybe not as much as you think. 2200 riders spread over 112 miles can occupy nearly 269 feet per rider, so subtracting each rider's bike, that still leaves a large gap. Or do it this way; if you assume a 30 foot gap plus 6 feet of space per bike length, then 2200 riders will take up 15 miles if they are equally spaced. OK, maybe that is a good chunk! But then, with a bunch of people drafting or passing then it is assuredly a lot less than 15 miles. There was drafting at Lake Placid, but not enough to lose sleep over. The worst area was on the Haselton Road out-and-back.

You have cheaters and you have honest racers no matter if it’s an $500 Ironman race or a $30 sprint race. People will cheat no matter what they are doing, on their wife’s on their taxes. Some of us trained hard for it and others did not. I rode the 112 miles on my own all 5 hours and 45 minutes of it, and my 6 pee-breaks. They have to live with being a cheater, and need someone’s help to go faster. Maybe they should have trained harder and then they would not need anyone’s help to go faster, BUT THEY CHEATED ON THEIR TRAINING.

2007-11-07 12:55 PM
in reply to: #1037124

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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

Fun discussion...I had the vague notion when people were discussing drafting at Steelhead earlier this summer of returning to my stochastics class (which I never understood fully) and applying some mathematics, so here it is:

The first is the histogram and staticstics of swim-times.  I'm making a gross generalization that T1 won't really affect the outcome.

Mean & Standard Deviation swim time:  1:14:14 +/- 12:55
(67% of the participants came out of the water between 1:01 & 1:27 assuming a Gaussian distribution)

Histogram
0--59:59            208
1:00--1:09:59    585
1:10--1:19:59    776
1:20--1:29:59    442
1:30--1:39:59    189
1:40--2:20         97

Had I actually understood Stochastics, I could work some magic and convert this from a gaussian-distribution (number of people in a small interval of time) to a poisson process describing the time-of-arrival between athletes.  Alas, I'm not this good, so I chose to approximate this as 1.3 people per second (in the 1:10--1:20 interval) exiting the water, or 0.77 seconds per person. 

Now moving on to the bike:  If I assume an average speed of 18 mph this means the rider is moving at 8 meters per second.  Yea, I know some riders are much faster, but I'm trying to characterize the *start* of the bike leg, so people aren't yet up to cruising speed. 

8 meters per second * 0.77 second per person = 6.2 meters per person (making a simplification that the riders are in a single line).  Thus they should have sufficient space to not draft (especially if they have more than one lane available). 

Now I haven't done an IM (did Steelhead last year), so I realize that it doesn't quite look like this when you're on the bike, but this says there really is sufficient space to ride without intentionally drafting, even if you're solidly MOP. 

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