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2007-11-13 1:21 PM

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Subject: build base or speed work?
this year was my first year of multi sport and my first year of running and cycling and swimming since highschool (i'm 28 now). My running wasn't too consistent this year because of a couple minor knee injuries but I did pretty well at the running portions of events and road races for a beginner.

Over the winter my plan is to work on my swimming mostly but to keep up my running so I can do half marathong in the early spring. My longest run so far is just over 12k and my avg run is between 6k-9k. I'm running about 3-4 times a week. (check my training log)

My question is....Should I continue to just build up my base for awhile and start speedwork closer to spring? or should should I start some speedwork now?


Thanks
Pete


2007-11-13 1:26 PM
in reply to: #1051194

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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?
Base now, speed later.
2007-11-13 1:28 PM
in reply to: #1051194

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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?

Base.

You have a long way to go before speedwork would valuable. If you're not at the point of being able to run your target distance yet, you shouldn't be worried about trying to run it fast.

2007-11-13 1:29 PM
in reply to: #1051194

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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?

newbie13 - 2007-11-13 11:21 AM this year was my first year of multi sport and my first year of running and cycling and swimming since highschool (i'm 28 now). My running wasn't too consistent this year because of a couple minor knee injuries but I did pretty well at the running portions of events and road races for a beginner. Over the winter my plan is to work on my swimming mostly but to keep up my running so I can do half marathong in the early spring.

Do they sell those at Victoria's Secret?  I like thongs. 

My longest run so far is just over 12k and my avg run is between 6k-9k. I'm running about 3-4 times a week. (check my training log) My question is....Should I continue to just build up my base for awhile and start speedwork closer to spring? or should should I start some speedwork now? Thanks Pete

I usually start speedwork after about 8 weeks of base building when I'm not in maintenance mode. 



Edited by elektra 2007-11-13 1:29 PM
2007-11-13 1:31 PM
in reply to: #1051194

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Coach
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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?
more than anything you should focus on training consistently at intensities which allow you to do it over and over day after day...
2007-11-13 1:33 PM
in reply to: #1051194

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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?

Looking at your logs, and working on some basic periodization principles (how your training should be scheduled for maximum benefit and efficiency), you should definitely spend longer building your base--a total of minimum 8 weeks, maybe up to 12. It's also important to keep tabs on your perceived exertion, or better yet your heart rate, during this time to make sure you are doing the runs aerobically ... a simple rule of thumb is if you feel you're putting forth light to moderate effort during your runs, your breathing isn't heavy, and you could carry on a conversation in full sentences, you're probably working within your aerobic capacity.

Speedwork is useless unless you've spent sufficient time in base building.

I like the explanations in this article: http://www.duathlon.com/articles/1460

Happy training, and best of luck with the spring 1/2 mary!



2007-11-13 3:19 PM
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2007-11-13 3:31 PM
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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?
The question should never be "build base or speed work?" Rather, the rule is speedwork on top of an adequately built base.
2007-11-13 3:34 PM
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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?
TriAya - 2007-11-13 3:33 PM

you should definitely spend longer building your base--a total of minimum 8 weeks, maybe up to 12.



Not sure what you mean here - that you should only build base for up to 12 weeks?

Shane
2007-11-13 3:45 PM
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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?
Don't worry about speed work now.  Focus on building your base.  You'll find that are you increase your endurance, you will get somewhat faster at the shorter distances.  Once you have a good base (and can run your target distance), you can start working on specific speed drills.  Be patient. 
2007-11-13 4:51 PM
in reply to: #1051475

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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?
gsmacleod - 2007-11-13 3:34 PM
TriAya - 2007-11-13 3:33 PM

you should definitely spend longer building your base--a total of minimum 8 weeks, maybe up to 12.

Not sure what you mean here - that you should only build base for up to 12 weeks? Shane

Hi Shane-- 

I'm looking at the OP's individual question and goals--wants to do a half-mary in spring and some time in speedwork before then. So I was saying minimum 8 weeks, maybe up to 12 for this person, based on the goals and information provided.



2007-11-13 6:57 PM
in reply to: #1051194

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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?
Thanks everybody, so the basic consensus is to get my base long run up to somewhere around my goal distance (1/2 mary) then start to focus on some speedwork?

About the aerobic workouts...I find it hard to run really slow and always catch myself speeding up to my avg. training pace which is about 5:00-5:15/km. At this pace I COULD keep a conversation but it would be a little hard at sometimes. Do I really need to slow that pace down? I don't have a HR monitor so I can't go by that but exertion wise I'd say my avg. runs are a 6/10.

One more question, how much longer should my long runs be compared to my regular runs? if my regular runs are 6-8k is 12-13k good for a long run?


sorry for all the questions, but thanks
2007-11-13 7:48 PM
in reply to: #1051642

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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?
TriAya - 2007-11-13 6:51 PM

Hi Shane-- 

I'm looking at the OP's individual question and goals--wants to do a half-mary in spring and some time in speedwork before then. So I was saying minimum 8 weeks, maybe up to 12 for this person, based on the goals and information provided.



Gotcha

For the OP, if you are running a max long run of 12k and around 25-30k/week, I would focus on building volume through frequency (add runs over a couple of months so you are regularly running 5-6x/week) and include some of the basic forms of speedwork (strides and/or accels starting immediately and once you have built up your running frequency, make one run a week tempo). If you find your self 6-8 weeks out from your half and are regularly running 5-6x/week (averaging around 45-50k/week) with one tempo and one long run, then you might want to consider some more structured speedwork while cutting back volume on other runs.

Shane
2007-11-13 8:49 PM
in reply to: #1051194

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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?
thanks for the advice, but I don't think I'm gonna have time to do 5-6 runs a week. Like I said this winter swimming is my number 1 priority, so that gives me about 3-4 days a week to run,maybe 5 the odd week,but unlikely.

Edited by newbie13 2007-11-13 8:49 PM
2007-11-14 9:08 AM
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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?
newbie13 - 2007-11-13 10:49 PM

thanks for the advice, but I don't think I'm gonna have time to do 5-6 runs a week. Like I said this winter swimming is my number 1 priority, so that gives me about 3-4 days a week to run,maybe 5 the odd week,but unlikely.


It's not actually that hard to add some additional frequency to your running and you will probably enjoy the benefits without completely changing your schedule.

As far as swimming through the off-season, I am with you there. I've let me swimming really slack off this year and will be swimming at least 3x/week building up to at least 10km/week by January. However, I am also training for a half in Feb and cycle commute as much as I can plus one or two trainer sessions per week (designed to maintain FTP).

So, to add a few extra runs you can try:

1) Quick zone 2 run over lunch - doesn't have to be long but if you do 3x20' runs over lunch you've added an additional hour of running
2) Run after swimming (or run to the pool, swim, run home )
3) If you swim in the AM, run in the PM or vice versa
4) A quick transition run off the bike (or rollers)

All of these things can help with adding some frequency to your run schedule without a huge impact to to how much time you are spending training. Your biggest week in the last four was close to 3 hours of running, so even adding one 20' run a week is a 10% increase in your running volume.

Obviously, getting the swimming in is key for you, however a half mary is a serious goal and with some minor tweaks to your schedule you can get a couple more runs in per week.

Shane
2007-11-14 9:34 AM
in reply to: #1051194

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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?
thanks Shane, I'll try to do that and get a few short runs into the schedule, My only concern was doing too much over the winter, I don't wana be burnt out come spring time ya know what I mean? But I also want to be ready for the 1/2 mary and my triathlons.


2007-11-14 9:42 AM
in reply to: #1051841

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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?
newbie13 - 2007-11-13 7:57 PM

About the aerobic workouts...I find it hard to run really slow and always catch myself speeding up to my avg. training pace which is about 5:00-5:15/km. At this pace I COULD keep a conversation but it would be a little hard at sometimes. Do I really need to slow that pace down? I don't have a HR monitor so I can't go by that but exertion wise I'd say my avg. runs are a 6/10.




To me, this is the definition of not having a base. I would also bet you that your HR is higher than you think it is. Many many folks are like this. They go too hard too often. It is VERY hard to stay slow enough at first to stay aerobic. To me, John Parker Jr's HR training book is the training bible. It changed my fitness life forever. I was just a runner when I got it (this book is runner focused). It took me nearly 2 months of anger and frustration to get to be able to run consistently at a 70% MHR level. I had to walk a bunch to do it. Then I was able to do 10 minute miles at that HR. Then 9. Then 8:30. In 6 months of following this I cut 30 minutes off my Half Marry PR and the second race was on a much harder course.

This is base building. Getting to where you can go and go at a lower HR. Parker's book is one of MANY things out there that teach this. He does advocate some harder workouts (starting with 1 a week) earlier than most - mainly to keep you sane during the hard time.

Once you have a solid base, then speed work starts to help. But speed work never replaces base work. Most of your work should be in the base building category.

I thought I had hard and easy workouts before, but when I first used a HRM after getting his book, I went to like 90% MHR all the time. Now I have to nearly kill myself to get to 90%. That is the payoff - really being in better shape.
2007-11-14 10:35 AM
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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?
newbie13 - 2007-11-14 11:34 AM

thanks Shane, I'll try to do that and get a few short runs into the schedule, My only concern was doing too much over the winter, I don't wana be burnt out come spring time ya know what I mean? But I also want to be ready for the 1/2 mary and my triathlons.


Definitely something to watch and if you are finding yourself dragging or mentally tired, then you can modify your schedule from there. Monitor your training and recovery, rest when you need and you should be fine - however, I would add that if you haven't taken a period of unstructured training, from 1-2 months, I would do that now and then get back into the swing of things after that.

shane
2007-11-14 2:11 PM
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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?
indygreg - 2007-11-14 9:42 AM

newbie13 - 2007-11-13 7:57 PM

About the aerobic workouts...I find it hard to run really slow and always catch myself speeding up to my avg. training pace which is about 5:00-5:15/km. At this pace I COULD keep a conversation but it would be a little hard at sometimes. Do I really need to slow that pace down? I don't have a HR monitor so I can't go by that but exertion wise I'd say my avg. runs are a 6/10.




To me, this is the definition of not having a base. I would also bet you that your HR is higher than you think it is. Many many folks are like this. They go too hard too often. It is VERY hard to stay slow enough at first to stay aerobic. To me, John Parker Jr's HR training book is the training bible. It changed my fitness life forever. I was just a runner when I got it (this book is runner focused). It took me nearly 2 months of anger and frustration to get to be able to run consistently at a 70% MHR level. I had to walk a bunch to do it. Then I was able to do 10 minute miles at that HR. Then 9. Then 8:30. In 6 months of following this I cut 30 minutes off my Half Marry PR and the second race was on a much harder course.

This is base building. Getting to where you can go and go at a lower HR. Parker's book is one of MANY things out there that teach this. He does advocate some harder workouts (starting with 1 a week) earlier than most - mainly to keep you sane during the hard time.

Once you have a solid base, then speed work starts to help. But speed work never replaces base work. Most of your work should be in the base building category.

I thought I had hard and easy workouts before, but when I first used a HRM after getting his book, I went to like 90% MHR all the time. Now I have to nearly kill myself to get to 90%. That is the payoff - really being in better shape.


Is it possible to do this or something similar without a HR monitor? I really can't afford to buy one.
2007-11-14 2:34 PM
in reply to: #1051194

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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?
Honestly, no.

Some are better than others at really judging their effort, but most are not good at it - at least at the start. I have been doing HR training (nearly 100% of the time) for 3 years. I barely need one now . . . I can look down at my HRM and guess within a few beats of where I am at. That skill took a while.

Money is different to many people, but if you really look hard enough, I bet you can find a functional HRM for less than $50 shipped. Look for base models, closeouts, and used ones on ebay.

I do not want to tell you how to spend your money, but bike gear, running shoes, pool memberships, etc are all not cheap. I cannot think of a single thing I have ever bought that has paid me back more than the HRM.
2007-11-14 3:47 PM
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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?
indygreg - 2007-11-14 2:34 PM

Honestly, no.

Some are better than others at really judging their effort, but most are not good at it - at least at the start. I have been doing HR training (nearly 100% of the time) for 3 years. I barely need one now . . . I can look down at my HRM and guess within a few beats of where I am at. That skill took a while.

Money is different to many people, but if you really look hard enough, I bet you can find a functional HRM for less than $50 shipped. Look for base models, closeouts, and used ones on ebay.

I do not want to tell you how to spend your money, but bike gear, running shoes, pool memberships, etc are all not cheap. I cannot think of a single thing I have ever bought that has paid me back more than the HRM.


Well the funny thing is, I was asking for a Garmin 305 for christmas from my g/f, but just last week she lost her job due to a shutdown and I got laid off from work not too long ago as well, so a Garmin for christmas is out of the question obviously. But once we both start working again and have a steady income I will defiantley be looking for a HRM. Thanks for the info tho.

Pete


2007-11-14 5:06 PM
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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?
garmin 305 would be awesome its too bad you can not get it.

I would say only do speed work just because someone has to tell you something different and unfortuately is completely wrong.

I am a big fan of the long run, but interesting enough my best marathon came when I was basicly not training for the marathon but short race. I was training for a 15K I though I could win. I did this by basicly running the 15k 2x a week and doing about 10k on another day. This got me so used to running that distance but the weekly millage base made the first half of the marathon alot faster. Though I died in the second half it really did help me out alot.
2007-11-14 5:32 PM
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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?

Pete,

Watch the Pay It Forward thread in Classifieds.  One may come up on there.  I had a great Polar that I gave to my mom when I upgraded to my 625x.  I bet there are a few of us that have older HRM's lying around.

Good luck!

2007-11-14 5:54 PM
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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?

A question that hasn't been asked: are you following any type of plan? 

And then that question would be followed by: have you considered hiring a coach?

2007-11-14 6:07 PM
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Subject: RE: build base or speed work?
No i'm not following a plan as of yet, I was gonna wait till im about 12 weeks out from the 1/2 mary to start a plan. And no I don't have a coach (can't afford one). But I do have a more experienced Tri freind that will help me out.
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