How to determine run race pace?
BY: amiine on 2008-07-25 1:52 PM

I didn't want to highjack Mike's training pace vs race pace hence I started this thread. many times I see/heard athlete complaining how their race performance falled apart during the run and based on Mike's thread we think part of th problme is 1) improper training (racing too fast and some times not fast enough) and 2) inablity to estimate race pace for training and racing.

For that reason and for all those wondering "what's my running race pace" and "what should my run race pace be" given your goal distance in terms of TRIATHLON I like to follow Jack Daniels VDOT paces and based on field tests and VDOT # I set up training paces for each athlete.

1^st of all let me establish one thing: even though I still use HRM with some of my athletes IMO the new GPS/pedometers gives me as an athlete and coach a better and more efficient way for training. As we all know HR can be highly variable and affected by other factors beyond training load and fatigue (in particular at high intensity sessions) for that reason for my coaching approach *I* prefer training by pace/RPE.

IMO using this the athlete not only training at the proper intensity, but also can adjust via RPE (since I offer a pace range for each intensity), learns what each pace ‘feels’ like and finally I can get copy of the files (Garmin, Polar, etc) and relate their pace, duration and terrain with the goal of the sessions and learn how fast an athlete adapts to a given session and how fast he/she recovers. IOW it helps me quantify load a bit easier. (Still feedback I get from the athlete is the most important thing)

Disclaimer – this doesn’t imply HR training is ineffective, I just happened to prefer the pace/RPE method.

About the tests: Lately I’ve been experimenting and modifying my approach and currently I suggest 2 tests: a 3-5 min all out run and a 20 min all out run done in different weeks. Both tests are pretty simple: warm up – 10-15 min easy pace, add 3-5 strides (30 sec each with equal duration jog as rest), main set – do the test, log distance which is very important (HR can also be recorded), cool down – 5-10 min easy running

The short test is focused to determine the athlete’s VDOT at VO2 max and the 20 min test is focused to determine the athlete’s VDOT at threshold. The reason for two tests is because some athletes have the top end speed for a short intense run but fall apart anytime the distance gets longer and vice versa. This gives me a better idea of the overall fitness level of the athlete and what do we need to address in training in case both tests deliver a different VDOT.

These tests are a bit intense but short enough that most athletes from most athletic backgrounds can do it and repeat frequently although for those coming off the coach or with no athletic experience 4-6 weeks of just short easy running should be a priority.
Once I have the VDOT obtained from the test(s) I then calculate the training paces (http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm) using the distance covered on the given time. (I approximate the distance to nearest distance available on the calculator; when in doubt use a lower VDOT #) at which the athlete should strive to do most runs

i.e. an athlete with a 50 VDOT will do most Easy pace (E pace) runs at 8:32 min/mile and most Marathon pace (M pace) runs at 7:17 min/mile. Since RPE plays a big factor the athlete has a some freedom to adjust to in case for the given session he/she is not feeling good enough to meet the pace or OTOH he/she is feeling great and can go a bit faster. Hence I set up the training pace zones as follow:

·          Z1 –  Easy pace = < to Easy pace
·          Z2 – Steady pace = E pace minus 5 sec to M pace plus 10 sec
·          Z3 – Marathon pace = M pace to T pace plus 10 sec
·          Z4 – Threshold pace = T pace to I pace plus 5 sec
·          Z5 – Interval pace = I pace to>

As I said above; the athlete should always strive to run at the VDOT defined pace but can use the pace ranges to adjust the pace based on RPE for a given session/day.

Now the good stuff – Based on my racing experience,  the guys I coach plus that of others coaches I interact frequently, we’ve indentify that the open run projections on the VDOT tables can be related very well for Tri run racing and you can see this below:

·          Sprint Pace is 10k Pace
·          Olympic Pace is HM Pace
·          HIM upper limit is Daniels equivalent Marathon Pace (95%T pace on average)
·          HIM lower limit is 90%T pace on average (adjusted from HIM upper limit)
·          IM upper limit is 80%T pace on average (adjusted from HIM upper limit)
·          IM lower limit is 75%T pace on average (adjusted from HIM upper limit)

Below is a table created by Ale Martinez (borrowed from a thread at slowtwitch and available at tri-organic.com)

Now please keep in mind that the above race paces and pacing suggestions on table are just general guidelines of what an athlete could be able to accomplish given his/her current fitness based on field testing, however to be able to realize that potential the athlete STILL needs to do the specific training.

Also, the athlete will need to do race rehearsal sessions to dial into the correct run pacing for the given distance he/she is training for. It is vital to consider swimming and cycling fitness, IOW an athlete can be a great runner but weak in the swim/bike hence even when on paper he has the potential to produce a good run (using the info provided) the performance won’t be achieved as the swim/bike will limit performance. Through training the optimal race pace should and can be determined.

Summary: To determine training/race pace – do test and record distance to calculate VDOT, set up paces, use table to approximate race pace, do the training (sorry can't give you all the secrets), do rehearsals to test race pace, modify correct race pace and RACE!

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Jorge
USAT & USAC Coach
E3 Training Solutions
http://www.e3ts.com
http://www.facebook.com/e3trainingsolutions

RE: How to determine run race pace?
BY: vball03umd on 2008-07-25 2:10 PM

Thanks so much for posting this! 

RE: How to determine run race pace?
BY: Fred D on 2008-07-25 4:56 PM

awesome post!

that table is actually spot on for most of my times at my VDOT as well. Kewl

RE: How to determine run race pace?
BY: Shermbelle on 2008-07-25 4:59 PM

Very cool chart Jorge, thanks!
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I'm caught up in a dream, I'm goin to wish for it all. No one's gonna tell me how, cause this is my dream now. I'm caught up in what seems simply impossible, I ain't gonna change a thing, no way this is my dream.- Tesla

RE: How to determine run race pace?
BY: bengalsfan on 2008-07-25 6:06 PM

Thats was a phenominal post. Thanks for the awesome advice!

RE: How to determine run race pace?
BY: tikicult on 2008-07-25 9:53 PM

How would you say the numbers above compare to the McMillan calculator? http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm

I get slower training paces from McMillan than I do using the VDOT method. I have been training with McMillan for the past few months. Should I change? Or go with what seems to be working?
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"If you're not sure whether you are running or jogging, go faster." -Pearl Izumi

RE: How to determine run race pace?
BY: Beanster on 2008-07-26 3:18 AM

Jorge,

Great post!

I assume you can pick a set distance for the 2 all out runs that approximate the times of 3-5 mins and 20 mins.

Eg 1500m at the track and a 5km.

Would that be just as good?

RE: How to determine run race pace?
BY: amiine on 2008-07-26 6:41 PM

yes indeed
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Jorge
USAT & USAC Coach
E3 Training Solutions
http://www.e3ts.com
http://www.facebook.com/e3trainingsolutions

RE: How to determine run race pace?
BY: amiine on 2008-07-26 6:44 PM

I am not familiar as to how McMillan calculate its training paces; I do know some might find VDOt pacing a bit agressive, still a good way around this is to go with a lower VDOT. I like the simplicity of VDOT as you really only have 4 paces that you use on a regular basis. If you are comfortable with McMillan there is no reason to change in fact you could very well use those and apply the same idea presented here to determine your triathlon racing paces.
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Jorge
USAT & USAC Coach
E3 Training Solutions
http://www.e3ts.com
http://www.facebook.com/e3trainingsolutions

RE: How to determine run race pace?
BY: amiine on 2008-07-27 9:06 PM

bump for the Monday AM crew
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Jorge
USAT & USAC Coach
E3 Training Solutions
http://www.e3ts.com
http://www.facebook.com/e3trainingsolutions

RE: How to determine run race pace?
BY: mbmoran2 on 2008-07-28 9:51 AM

Thanks Jorge!

The chart is pretty much spot on for me.  My 1/2M corresponds to a higher VDOT (1:36:24 = 47) than my open 5k (21:23 = 46) and Oly run split (46:37 = 46).  I think the reason is specifity of training.  My 1/2M in April was an early season "A" race, where my training was very specific to the 1/2-marathon, including tempo runs, mile-repeats and a taper.  For the 5k and Oly run splits were "B" races within my HIM training season.  Also, this was my 1st ever 5k and wasn't sure how to pace it.

 

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"Excellence is the gradual result of always striving to do better."

** Pat Riley **

RE: How to determine run race pace?
BY: Plissken74 on 2008-07-28 1:24 PM

That was what I was searching for!

Excellent!

I hope to match the expectations on my HIM next sunday. If I catch that time, I will let you know.

So far, my 5k, 10k and Oly times are perfect.

Just the HM is a bit faster than what I have...

I will try HIM

and then in 1 month IM.

let's see 

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Rest is for the dead

RE: How to determine run race pace?
BY: running2far on 2008-07-29 8:51 AM

Bump - reminder for myself to read later
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Hup Hup

RE: How to determine run race pace?
BY: Plissken74 on 2008-08-05 1:02 AM

After my last HIM on sunday, I can compare some more result with this table

I would say first of all that I would put myself between 59 and 60 but in this period closer to 59 VDOT, based on my PB on 10k.

3 weeks ago I did an Oly running in 37'23" (I had the feeling I could more with somebody pacing me close)

On sunday I did an HIM with the half mary in 1h24'44" but it was longer of 600 meters and I passed in around 1h22 on my gps

If I take line 60, we are in the range for both and I should expect the marathon of the IM between 3h14 and 3h27 which it would be a great success for me. Honestly, if I will feel like when I was in T2 last sunday, it should not be a problem to be in this range but it is a dream at the moment after 180km cycling...

In 1 month I will know it

 

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Rest is for the dead

RE: How to determine run race pace?
BY: MikeJ on 2008-08-05 4:57 AM

Awesome post Jorge!

Thanks for posting. More stuff for me to think about now. 

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"Speak softly and carry a big stick" was also Teddy Roosevelt's recommendation for a successful honeymoon.

RE: How to determine run race pace?
BY: Daremo on 2008-08-05 6:31 AM

And standard VDOT tables can be found in Daniel's Running Formula book as well as pretty much all that Jorge posted about (other than the conversions to tri results).

Edited by Daremo 2008-08-05 6:35 AM

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Rick

Blunt, matter of fact and opinionated. Deal with it.

'10 races (registered) - Columbia Tri, South Carroll Sprint

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RE: How to determine run race pace?
BY: Daremo on 2008-08-05 6:33 AM

Your VDOT paces should NOT be based on tri run rsults.  They should be based on stand alone running results.

Daniels did not create the VDOT scale for triathletes, he did it for pure runners.  It is common knowledge that tri run times are proportionally slower than stand alone times across the board as Jorge posted.

It does not make sense to train at a straight VDOT conversion based on the normal Daniels tables that you get from tri results as you will then be short changing yourself in your pace ranges on normal training runs.  Now if that table above is a good translation of tri times to VDOT, then it will give you a VDOT number to work with, but I would still base mine off of stand alone times.

Edited by Daremo 2008-08-05 6:38 AM

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Rick

Blunt, matter of fact and opinionated. Deal with it.

'10 races (registered) - Columbia Tri, South Carroll Sprint

Proud to be a '10 Gu Ambassador

RE: How to determine run race pace?
BY: Plissken74 on 2008-08-05 7:07 AM

Sorry, wait a second.

I said, line 59 or 60 based on my 10k PB standalone.

Then I am comparing the outcome of those lines with my actual tri results.

I agree with what you are saying 

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Rest is for the dead

RE: How to determine run race pace?
BY: rc63413 on 2008-08-05 7:55 AM

One very good thing about the VDOT tables is that you can tell where you fall short, speedwork or endurance. If you race varying distances and find you have a higher VDOT value for shorter races than you do at longer race distances (Say 5Ks at 54 and 1/2 marathon 51), generally it means you need to focus on longer runs and endurance building. On the other hand, if the VDOT number for you shorter races is lower than for your longer races, you might increase somewhat the amount of speedwork you do. If you have truly maxed out your training over a number of years, then the differences in VDOT to some extent will reflect your natural ability (fast twitch slow twitch characteristics).

Mosty of the time it is the strength endurance department where the indibvidual lacks, hence they will find they have a higher VDOT at short distance relative to longer. The prescription being greater volume and or long runs. It is why most people fall apart in the marathon. They go out based on their VDOT value for shorter races, but can't hold it and blow up. When you marathon, unless you are pretty experienced, you should use 1/2 marathon or 15K's to predict marathon paces and then go out at a slightly slower pace expecting to negative split. If you can't negative split you will be thankful that at least you didn't go out faster and really blow up.

VDOT values are very useful tools indeed.