Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) (Page 4)
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2011-03-17 1:25 PM in reply to: #3402277 |
Expert 1099 Broadlands | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) TriAya - 2011-03-17 2:17 PM trinnas - 2011-03-18 3:14 AM I find it interesting that we can tell a child what he/she can and cannot wear in school but not what library books he/she may or may not check out. I'm also wondering if there are parallels in this discussion as to what a school cafeteria can/cannot should/should not serve. Don't even get me started on that one!!!!! it's actually a good debate all on it's own, how much responsibility the school has in that area vs the demands placed on them to feed children cost effectively for one thing....but in that a parent shares the responsibility also, I know everything my son buys during lunch as our school tracks it on a computerized system, I can go online and see what his account has been used to buy, they also publish the meals well in advance so we can plan with our son what he has each day. We can interact before and we can verify, and the school typically has a good selection of foods we are happy with, so in this one I think they do pretty well. |
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2011-03-17 1:31 PM in reply to: #3402298 |
Alpharetta, Georgia | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) dewybuck - 2011-03-17 1:25 PM I know everything my son buys during lunch as our school tracks it on a computerized system, I can go online and see what his account has been used to buy, they also publish the meals well in advance so we can plan with our son what he has each day. We can interact before and we can verify, and the school typically has a good selection of foods we are happy with, so in this one I think they do pretty well. I am no parent, but WOW that is awesome!!
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2011-03-17 1:32 PM in reply to: #3402288 |
Expert 1099 Broadlands | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) JChristoff - 2011-03-17 2:23 PM So is it because of the pictures? Did you read any of the stories? If it is the pictures the newer versions of the books have removed much of the original artwork that you posted. I posted the pictures, but my issue is with both the stories and illustrations. The stories are too dark, IMO, for a 3rd grade child. (notice I said 3rd grade, not 7 year old) I see the age range 9-12 in a post above, I am not too sure that it is suitable for 9 year old, but my son is 7, and my other kids are younger, so I bow to those who have dealt with 9 year old children of their own. from my work as a youth worker to this age group, I would still not think it appropriate, but each to their own.... |
2011-03-17 1:33 PM in reply to: #3402306 |
Expert 1099 Broadlands | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) lisac957 - 2011-03-17 2:31 PM dewybuck - 2011-03-17 1:25 PM I know everything my son buys during lunch as our school tracks it on a computerized system, I can go online and see what his account has been used to buy, they also publish the meals well in advance so we can plan with our son what he has each day. We can interact before and we can verify, and the school typically has a good selection of foods we are happy with, so in this one I think they do pretty well. I am no parent, but WOW that is awesome!!
We thought so when looking at schools ETA: we also see when he has bought chocolate ice cream and chocolate milk on days when that was not on the discussed options.....so he doesn't always find the system awesome :-) Edited by dewybuck 2011-03-17 1:35 PM |
2011-03-17 1:34 PM in reply to: #3402298 |
Master 2009 Charlotte, NC | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) dewybuck - 2011-03-17 2:25 PM TriAya - 2011-03-17 2:17 PM trinnas - 2011-03-18 3:14 AM I find it interesting that we can tell a child what he/she can and cannot wear in school but not what library books he/she may or may not check out. I'm also wondering if there are parallels in this discussion as to what a school cafeteria can/cannot should/should not serve. Don't even get me started on that one!!!!! it's actually a good debate all on it's own, how much responsibility the school has in that area vs the demands placed on them to feed children cost effectively for one thing....but in that a parent shares the responsibility also, I know everything my son buys during lunch as our school tracks it on a computerized system, I can go online and see what his account has been used to buy, they also publish the meals well in advance so we can plan with our son what he has each day. We can interact before and we can verify, and the school typically has a good selection of foods we are happy with, so in this one I think they do pretty well.
I guess now that could tranlate to the library. Is there an online catalog you and your son could look at together? Maybe make a list of books he is interested and you approve of for his next library visit? Now you know what he might choose so you can help him choose differently next time. |
2011-03-17 1:35 PM in reply to: #3402286 |
Champion 18680 Lost in the Luminiferous Aether | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) coredump - 2011-03-17 2:23 PM trinnas - 2011-03-17 12:51 PM briderdt - 2011-03-17 12:56 PM trinnas - 2011-03-17 9:26 AM briderdt - 2011-03-17 12:20 PM Bmel - 2011-03-17 9:09 AM TriAya - 2011-03-17 10:56 AM Bmel - 2011-03-18 12:49 AM I understand that there are 1000's of books in an elementry school library, but I do expect someone to know what is in every book and not the teacher. The school library could put a little color sticker on each book for what would be age appropriate, not a perfect system but something. My son can't can't rated R videos, rated R games from a store, but can walk into the school library and borrow any book he wants. That doesn't seem right to me. Okay. That's one suggestion. Who, or what, might thoroughly know the contents of every single book in the library? Who, or what, and how, might decide what is age appropriate? Who, or what, and how, sees to it that no child of inappropriate age can get that book out of the library? There should be someone in charge of the library, who puts the books back on the shelf, when a book falls apart who throws it out. Someone should be in charge of the library and that same person is the one who checks the books out. A child can't just walk into the library and decide to take a book. When my son doesn't turn his books back in on time the school they let me know very quickly. If nobody knows what is in the books, then there could be inappropriate material for all ages of the school. So I would say, someone should definitly know what is on the shelf. I would be fine with the education system deciding on age appropriateness for a book and I would ask them to caution on not letting a child check out a book if it's borderline. If the school tells my son he can not borrow a book, and he asks me about it, then I can talk to him about it, look at the book and I would get him the book if I feel it's appropriate. This is a great thread, it is really making me wonder how my our elementry school handles and I am going to look into it. Or maybe, just MAYBE, there should be some one in charge of the child, called a parent. I am sure the school would love that, a parent for every child in school with them all day long. Do you seriously think that "responsible" means you have to be within eyesight at all times? How exactly am I in charge if the authority figures at school say it's OK again what if the book is to be read at school and not come home where is my say then? The point is in school the school is supposed to be in charge of them! Clearly, the correct solution is for the school to not let children read any books, since it is impossible for them to know in advance what each individual parent will deem "inappropriate" for their child. Here's the book: http://www.amazon.com/Scary-Stories-Tell-Alvin-Schwartz/dp/0060835206/
Or conversely clearly we should throw anything we want in there including "adult" novels since we cannot deem anything to be "inappropriate". I do recall saying something earlier about it being a partnership between parents and schools. You will never please 100%or the parents 100% of the time. |
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2011-03-17 1:36 PM in reply to: #3402315 |
Champion 15211 Southern Chicago Suburbs, IL | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) trinnas - 2011-03-17 1:35 PM coredump - 2011-03-17 2:23 PM trinnas - 2011-03-17 12:51 PM briderdt - 2011-03-17 12:56 PM trinnas - 2011-03-17 9:26 AM briderdt - 2011-03-17 12:20 PM Bmel - 2011-03-17 9:09 AM TriAya - 2011-03-17 10:56 AM Bmel - 2011-03-18 12:49 AM I understand that there are 1000's of books in an elementry school library, but I do expect someone to know what is in every book and not the teacher. The school library could put a little color sticker on each book for what would be age appropriate, not a perfect system but something. My son can't can't rated R videos, rated R games from a store, but can walk into the school library and borrow any book he wants. That doesn't seem right to me. Okay. That's one suggestion. Who, or what, might thoroughly know the contents of every single book in the library? Who, or what, and how, might decide what is age appropriate? Who, or what, and how, sees to it that no child of inappropriate age can get that book out of the library? There should be someone in charge of the library, who puts the books back on the shelf, when a book falls apart who throws it out. Someone should be in charge of the library and that same person is the one who checks the books out. A child can't just walk into the library and decide to take a book. When my son doesn't turn his books back in on time the school they let me know very quickly. If nobody knows what is in the books, then there could be inappropriate material for all ages of the school. So I would say, someone should definitly know what is on the shelf. I would be fine with the education system deciding on age appropriateness for a book and I would ask them to caution on not letting a child check out a book if it's borderline. If the school tells my son he can not borrow a book, and he asks me about it, then I can talk to him about it, look at the book and I would get him the book if I feel it's appropriate. This is a great thread, it is really making me wonder how my our elementry school handles and I am going to look into it. Or maybe, just MAYBE, there should be some one in charge of the child, called a parent. I am sure the school would love that, a parent for every child in school with them all day long. Do you seriously think that "responsible" means you have to be within eyesight at all times? How exactly am I in charge if the authority figures at school say it's OK again what if the book is to be read at school and not come home where is my say then? The point is in school the school is supposed to be in charge of them! Clearly, the correct solution is for the school to not let children read any books, since it is impossible for them to know in advance what each individual parent will deem "inappropriate" for their child. Here's the book: http://www.amazon.com/Scary-Stories-Tell-Alvin-Schwartz/dp/0060835206/
Or conversely clearly we should throw anything we want in there including "adult" novels since we cannot deem anything to be "inappropriate". I do recall saying something earlier about it being a partnership between parents and schools. You will never please 100%or the parents 100% of the time. Winner winner chicken dinner! |
2011-03-17 1:39 PM in reply to: #3401821 |
Champion 6786 Two seat rocket plane | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) These books (along with several other famous literary works) make the "most challenged" lists on a regular basis. Wikipedia This series is listed as being the most challenged series of books from 1990–1999[2] and seventh most challenged from 2000-2009 [3] by the American Library Association for its violence. Also there remains the problem of it being classified as a children's book, due to the surreal and nightmarish illustrations contained within.
Top 10 from 2000-09 |
2011-03-17 1:40 PM in reply to: #3402315 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) trinnas - 2011-03-18 3:35 AM Or conversely clearly we should throw anything we want in there including "adult" novels since we cannot deem anything to be "inappropriate". I do recall saying something earlier about it being a partnership between parents and schools. You will never please 100%or the parents 100% of the time. Indeed. I guess to me all the books in an elementary school library in fact have already been deemed to be appropriate. The selection process has already taken place. Unfortunately, since any further selection processes (so far) seem to be unworkable, we are kind of reduced to all-or-nothing solutions (or accepting the status quo) ... however, the issue of what should be in an elementary school library at all is different than what the OP stated. Not that we ever discuss variations on a topic in a thread here in CoJ, never mind complete hijacks. |
2011-03-17 1:42 PM in reply to: #3402326 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) ride_like_u_stole_it - 2011-03-18 3:39 AM These books (along with several other famous literary works) make the "most challenged" lists on a regular basis. Wikipedia This series is listed as being the most challenged series of books from 1990–1999[2] and seventh most challenged from 2000-2009 [3] by the American Library Association for its violence. Also there remains the problem of it being classified as a children's book, due to the surreal and nightmarish illustrations contained within.
Top 10 from 2000-09 Fascinating. Thanks for the additional information. Are these challenged lists for K-12 or elementary school libraries only? |
2011-03-17 2:09 PM in reply to: #3402250 |
Master 2231 Des Moines, Iowa | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) TriAya - 2011-03-17 1:10 PM SquirrelGravy - 2011-03-18 2:04 AM The issue is children selecting books that a parent does not approve - whether for "free reading time" or "assignments". If I understand the original post correctly. Thus, my solution means that the parent would be involved with every book a child needs to select for free reading in school or assignments. Kind of like being notified if you child is going to sit in a sex ed clas and you would rather be the one discussing that with them as opposed to the school. Check a box on a form, put it in the child's profile. Okay. So on one issue (that was brought up by the OP--free reading, not for assignment), basically, the solution is either the child can check books out of the library or not. I'd agree, that's one checkbox, an additional hassle, but doable. I'm not sure how many schools would be willing to add that as an option, but it is a workable solution. Now, on this other issue you brought up--if the child needs books for an assignment, the above solution would still work. If I misinterpreted what you said, please let me know, because I'm not sure what "the parent would be involved with every book a child needs to select for free reading in school or assignments" means. From my earlier post... "One solution is that for any assignments where a student has to choose a book, the parent is given the option to take their child to the public library or bookstore and pick out a book with them. That way the parent has the responsibility for guiding their child's selection of reading material." Thus, the parent is involved in books selected for free reading or assignments. My wife took our kids to the public library almost every week when they were smaller. So if a child needs a book for free reading time or an assignment it would be easy to pick one up. |
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2011-03-17 2:15 PM in reply to: #3402377 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) SquirrelGravy - 2011-03-18 4:09 AM TriAya - 2011-03-17 1:10 PM From my earlier post... "One solution is that for any assignments where a student has to choose a book, the parent is given the option to take their child to the public library or bookstore and pick out a book with them. That way the parent has the responsibility for guiding their child's selection of reading material." Thus, the parent is involved in books selected for free reading or assignments. My wife took our kids to the public library almost every week when they were smaller. So if a child needs a book for free reading time or an assignment it would be easy to pick one up. SquirrelGravy - 2011-03-18 2:04 AM The issue is children selecting books that a parent does not approve - whether for "free reading time" or "assignments". If I understand the original post correctly. Thus, my solution means that the parent would be involved with every book a child needs to select for free reading in school or assignments. Kind of like being notified if you child is going to sit in a sex ed clas and you would rather be the one discussing that with them as opposed to the school. Check a box on a form, put it in the child's profile. Okay. So on one issue (that was brought up by the OP--free reading, not for assignment), basically, the solution is either the child can check books out of the library or not. I'd agree, that's one checkbox, an additional hassle, but doable. I'm not sure how many schools would be willing to add that as an option, but it is a workable solution. Now, on this other issue you brought up--if the child needs books for an assignment, the above solution would still work. If I misinterpreted what you said, please let me know, because I'm not sure what "the parent would be involved with every book a child needs to select for free reading in school or assignments" means. So I got it wrong. In other words, it's not just an issue of ticking a box in a students' profiles and either a) allowing them to check books out from the school library, or b) not. What you're proposing is that every single time students are taken to the library to select books for free reading, OR any time they are asked to use books for an assignment, that the teacher notify all the parents that students are about to select books (either for free reading or assignments), and parents should send some sort of notice back regarding whether or not, that particular time, their child will be selecting books from outside the school. This is what I'm not understanding. What exactly is it that you're proposing? |
2011-03-17 2:15 PM in reply to: #3402310 |
Champion 10668 Tacoma, Washington | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) dewybuck - 2011-03-17 11:32 AM JChristoff - 2011-03-17 2:23 PM So is it because of the pictures? Did you read any of the stories? If it is the pictures the newer versions of the books have removed much of the original artwork that you posted. I posted the pictures, but my issue is with both the stories and illustrations. The stories are too dark, IMO, for a 3rd grade child. (notice I said 3rd grade, not 7 year old) I see the age range 9-12 in a post above, I am not too sure that it is suitable for 9 year old, but my son is 7, and my other kids are younger, so I bow to those who have dealt with 9 year old children of their own. from my work as a youth worker to this age group, I would still not think it appropriate, but each to their own.... So what was the point of this thread again? |
2011-03-17 2:24 PM in reply to: #3402384 |
Expert 1099 Broadlands | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) briderdt - 2011-03-17 3:15 PM dewybuck - 2011-03-17 11:32 AM JChristoff - 2011-03-17 2:23 PM So is it because of the pictures? Did you read any of the stories? If it is the pictures the newer versions of the books have removed much of the original artwork that you posted. I posted the pictures, but my issue is with both the stories and illustrations. The stories are too dark, IMO, for a 3rd grade child. (notice I said 3rd grade, not 7 year old) I see the age range 9-12 in a post above, I am not too sure that it is suitable for 9 year old, but my son is 7, and my other kids are younger, so I bow to those who have dealt with 9 year old children of their own. from my work as a youth worker to this age group, I would still not think it appropriate, but each to their own.... So what was the point of this thread again? Hah. OK. context......parents who have raised children past 9 years of age and know their children at 9 may have a view that this material was suitable for their 9 year old child. I think the school library allowing a 7 year old, or 3rd grade child (8-9) to take it out is not OK. ETA: and the thread is "Am I right to be angry" it's a question. there are obviously two sides, a good debate is a healthy reason for a thread. An to be honest, it does me good to get other viewpoints that point out things I may not have considered and from people who are not emotionally engaged in my sons upbringing. I appreciate the frankness of some responses and support of others. Edited by dewybuck 2011-03-17 2:29 PM |
2011-03-17 2:24 PM in reply to: #3402384 |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) briderdt - 2011-03-17 3:15 PM dewybuck - 2011-03-17 11:32 AM JChristoff - 2011-03-17 2:23 PM So is it because of the pictures? Did you read any of the stories? If it is the pictures the newer versions of the books have removed much of the original artwork that you posted. I posted the pictures, but my issue is with both the stories and illustrations. The stories are too dark, IMO, for a 3rd grade child. (notice I said 3rd grade, not 7 year old) I see the age range 9-12 in a post above, I am not too sure that it is suitable for 9 year old, but my son is 7, and my other kids are younger, so I bow to those who have dealt with 9 year old children of their own. from my work as a youth worker to this age group, I would still not think it appropriate, but each to their own.... So what was the point of this thread again?
I don't know, but I'm still looking for horrid images. There were some pretty cool black and white one in the OP, but still can't find horrid ones anywhere. |
2011-03-17 2:28 PM in reply to: #3401821 |
MotoQueen 13195 | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) As a librarian I would like to say that we deal with this situation over and over again. I am a public librarian, not a school librarian, but I do know that the school libraries have even stricter guidelines for what they purchase and what they can't. These guidelines are used to purchase the materials that end up on the shelves. Even if a book is donated to the library, it must still fall within the guidelines if it is going to be placed on the shelf. A librarian cannot make the determination what can or can't be read by any individual child (or what can be checked out on their card.) The books in the library are not set up by grade or age level as that varies wildly. In any given class you can have children reading at 4 grades above their level, or below. If you were to set up the library that way, then the child reading below grade level will be made to feel bad because they are choosing books from the 2nd grade level instead of the 4th grade level. Also, I don't know about the schools by you, but our elementary schools have often 1000 - 1500 students in them. One librarian cannot keep up with what each child in that school can or can't read. One librarian can't talk to every student about the choice they made on what book to check out. Often the class comes in and has about 10-15 minutes for 30 kids to choose a book and get it checked out, so the checkout process is really pretty quick in terms of contact between the student and the person who is doing the checking out (who actually may be a parent volunteer, and don't get me started on confidentiality issues when you have a volunteer making the decision on your child's reading material.) In addition, the reading interests of the children vary. And what parents are okay with their children reading varies. What one parent might find inappropriate for their 3rd grader another may be okay with. As a librarian, we always say the parent needs to make the decision regarding what their child reads and what they don't read. We also encourage the parents to read the material first so that they can make an educated decision. We encourage the parents to talk with their children about what has been read. As a parent, when I had concern about what my child was reading, I spoke with the child. Exactly what the original poster did. Having an honest conversation with your child is going to do more for you than just BANNING materials and not talking about it. |
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2011-03-17 2:35 PM in reply to: #3402382 |
Master 2231 Des Moines, Iowa | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) TriAya - 2011-03-17 2:15 PM SquirrelGravy - 2011-03-18 4:09 AM TriAya - 2011-03-17 1:10 PM From my earlier post... "One solution is that for any assignments where a student has to choose a book, the parent is given the option to take their child to the public library or bookstore and pick out a book with them. That way the parent has the responsibility for guiding their child's selection of reading material." Thus, the parent is involved in books selected for free reading or assignments. My wife took our kids to the public library almost every week when they were smaller. So if a child needs a book for free reading time or an assignment it would be easy to pick one up. SquirrelGravy - 2011-03-18 2:04 AM The issue is children selecting books that a parent does not approve - whether for "free reading time" or "assignments". If I understand the original post correctly. Thus, my solution means that the parent would be involved with every book a child needs to select for free reading in school or assignments. Kind of like being notified if you child is going to sit in a sex ed clas and you would rather be the one discussing that with them as opposed to the school. Check a box on a form, put it in the child's profile. Okay. So on one issue (that was brought up by the OP--free reading, not for assignment), basically, the solution is either the child can check books out of the library or not. I'd agree, that's one checkbox, an additional hassle, but doable. I'm not sure how many schools would be willing to add that as an option, but it is a workable solution. Now, on this other issue you brought up--if the child needs books for an assignment, the above solution would still work. If I misinterpreted what you said, please let me know, because I'm not sure what "the parent would be involved with every book a child needs to select for free reading in school or assignments" means. So I got it wrong. In other words, it's not just an issue of ticking a box in a students' profiles and either a) allowing them to check books out from the school library, or b) not. What you're proposing is that every single time students are taken to the library to select books for free reading, OR any time they are asked to use books for an assignment, that the teacher notify all the parents that students are about to select books (either for free reading or assignments), and parents should send some sort of notice back regarding whether or not, that particular time, their child will be selecting books from outside the school. This is what I'm not understanding. What exactly is it that you're proposing? I am saying there are solutions...unlike the many posts which say this is an impossible situation to resolve. With the use of modern technology it would be easy to record the parent's wishes to be involved with the selection of "non-textbooks" for their children's assignments. So yes, 1) check the box at registration that you want to help your child select non-textbooks for reading and assignments. Thus, the teacher or librarian knows which students to send an assignment sheet home with where non-textbooks will be required for assignments. (for those who say this is just too hard, I point out that BT has 239866 registered users and the site is run by a couple or three guys. it's not the 60's, we have some technology to help with such a process that schools use every day). 2) When a child needs an additional book, bring a copy of the assignment home and help them find a book. Is it the best solution? Probably not. Is it a solution? Yes. You also mentioned earlier that "talking" to the principal, teacher, or librarian was not a solution and you asked for suggestions on what to say. After showing them the book, how about this: "I would prefer that my 7-yr old child not be exposed to violent or gory images without my permission. Is there some way we can prevent this from happening again?" Most teachers and school admin's are very receptive to parent input and I think they would respond well to this approach. Edited by SquirrelGravy 2011-03-17 2:40 PM |
2011-03-17 2:39 PM in reply to: #3402401 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) dewybuck - 2011-03-18 4:24 AM briderdt - 2011-03-17 3:15 PM dewybuck - 2011-03-17 11:32 AM JChristoff - 2011-03-17 2:23 PM So is it because of the pictures? Did you read any of the stories? If it is the pictures the newer versions of the books have removed much of the original artwork that you posted. I posted the pictures, but my issue is with both the stories and illustrations. The stories are too dark, IMO, for a 3rd grade child. (notice I said 3rd grade, not 7 year old) I see the age range 9-12 in a post above, I am not too sure that it is suitable for 9 year old, but my son is 7, and my other kids are younger, so I bow to those who have dealt with 9 year old children of their own. from my work as a youth worker to this age group, I would still not think it appropriate, but each to their own.... So what was the point of this thread again? Hah. OK. context......parents who have raised children past 9 years of age and know their children at 9 may have a view that this material was suitable for their 9 year old child. I think the school library allowing a 7 year old, or 3rd grade child (8-9) to take it out is not OK. ETA: and the thread is "Am I right to be angry" it's a question. there are obviously two sides, a good debate is a healthy reason for a thread. An to be honest, it does me good to get other viewpoints that point out things I may not have considered and from people who are not emotionally engaged in my sons upbringing. I appreciate the frankness of some responses and support of others. On a personal note--I think I sort of said this before--I don't know if you're right to be ANGRY (I reserve anger for things like, I don't know, willed bodily harm), but I think you're right to be concerned. If I had a seven-year-old, I wouldn't want her to be watching The Lion King (honestly, I'm really not sure about many movies or TV), never mind reading a horror book with graphic pictures. In a perfect world, I don't think allowing my (I cannot speak for anyone else's) seven-year-child to check out such books would be okay, either. Although the following is not what your question really originally asked (which, frankly, makes it a rant, not a question), I just don't think there is a practical alternative. After five pages of this thread, no one has still proposed a practical alternative. kns57's post was illuminating and summed up nicely, with a professional and personal perspective, what others and I have been saying about there not being a practical alternative. |
2011-03-17 2:40 PM in reply to: #3402408 |
Expert 1099 Broadlands | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) kns57 - 2011-03-17 3:28 PM As a librarian I would like to say that we deal with this situation over and over again. I am a public librarian, not a school librarian, but I do know that the school libraries have even stricter guidelines for what they purchase and what they can't. These guidelines are used to purchase the materials that end up on the shelves. Even if a book is donated to the library, it must still fall within the guidelines if it is going to be placed on the shelf. A librarian cannot make the determination what can or can't be read by any individual child (or what can be checked out on their card.) The books in the library are not set up by grade or age level as that varies wildly. In any given class you can have children reading at 4 grades above their level, or below. If you were to set up the library that way, then the child reading below grade level will be made to feel bad because they are choosing books from the 2nd grade level instead of the 4th grade level. Also, I don't know about the schools by you, but our elementary schools have often 1000 - 1500 students in them. One librarian cannot keep up with what each child in that school can or can't read. One librarian can't talk to every student about the choice they made on what book to check out. Often the class comes in and has about 10-15 minutes for 30 kids to choose a book and get it checked out, so the checkout process is really pretty quick in terms of contact between the student and the person who is doing the checking out (who actually may be a parent volunteer, and don't get me started on confidentiality issues when you have a volunteer making the decision on your child's reading material.) In addition, the reading interests of the children vary. And what parents are okay with their children reading varies. What one parent might find inappropriate for their 3rd grader another may be okay with. As a librarian, we always say the parent needs to make the decision regarding what their child reads and what they don't read. We also encourage the parents to read the material first so that they can make an educated decision. We encourage the parents to talk with their children about what has been read. As a parent, when I had concern about what my child was reading, I spoke with the child. Exactly what the original poster did. Having an honest conversation with your child is going to do more for you than just BANNING materials and not talking about it. Very well said, I have to say some points here give me some ideas for my discussion with the school. It also tempers the anger slightly to see things from the other perspective....thank you. I still think there should have been some way to catch it, and I think it's obvious those books were not appropriate and he should not have been able to take them out, I look forward to talking with the school and seeing what their take on it is. |
2011-03-17 2:40 PM in reply to: #3401821 |
Champion 7136 Knoxville area | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) Man, I loved the Lion King |
2011-03-17 2:50 PM in reply to: #3402430 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) SquirrelGravy - 2011-03-18 4:35 AM I am saying there are solutions...unlike the many posts which say this is an impossible situation to resolve. With the use of modern technology it would be easy to record the parent's wishes to be involved with the selection of "non-textbooks" for their children's assignments. So yes, 1) check the box at registration that you want to help your child select non-textbooks for reading and assignments. (for those who say this is just too hard, I point out that BT has 239866 registered users and the site is run by a couple or three guys. it's not the 60's, we have some technology to help with such a process that schools use every day). Thus, the teacher or librarian knows which students 2) When a child needs an additional book, bring a copy of the assignment home and help them find a book. Is it the best solution? Probably not. Is it a solution? Yes. You also mentioned earlier that "talking" to the principal, teacher, or librarian was not a solution and you asked for suggestions on what to say. After showing them the book, how about this: "I would prefer that my 7-yr old child not be exposed to violent or gory images without my permission. Is there some way we can prevent this from happening again?" Most teachers and school admin's are very receptive to parent input and I think they would respond well to this approach. Either you misread what I wrote or mistyped what you meant to say. I did say talking to school officials WAS a solution, and my question was, when one does speak with them, what does one say? In other words, you're still not proposing anything specific, you're just asking school officials if there is "some way." That isn't input. You're merely stating your preference without offering any details as to what your solution or your contribution will be. What WOULD a "best solution" look like? Yes, you provided a solution, but again, we could all provide all kinds of solutions, but that doesn't explain why they would be workable and effective. I still don't think the solution you proposed is workable, or maybe I'm misunderstanding it, or maybe you're not providing enough detail. "Help your child select non-textbooks" is very vague. What does that mean, exactly? You can't be at the school library every single time your kid is taking books out, whether for assignment or free reading, so are we back to all-or-nothing (CAN use the library/CANNOT use the library)? Or do we leave free reading out as a different issue, and just say every time a kid on the "ticked-box" list gets an assignment, YOU will help him pick out a book outside of the school's resources? |
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2011-03-17 2:53 PM in reply to: #3402438 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) dewybuck - 2011-03-18 4:40 AM kns57 - 2011-03-17 3:28 PM As a librarian I would like to say that we deal with this situation over and over again. I am a public librarian, not a school librarian, but I do know that the school libraries have even stricter guidelines for what they purchase and what they can't. These guidelines are used to purchase the materials that end up on the shelves. Even if a book is donated to the library, it must still fall within the guidelines if it is going to be placed on the shelf. A librarian cannot make the determination what can or can't be read by any individual child (or what can be checked out on their card.) The books in the library are not set up by grade or age level as that varies wildly. In any given class you can have children reading at 4 grades above their level, or below. If you were to set up the library that way, then the child reading below grade level will be made to feel bad because they are choosing books from the 2nd grade level instead of the 4th grade level. Also, I don't know about the schools by you, but our elementary schools have often 1000 - 1500 students in them. One librarian cannot keep up with what each child in that school can or can't read. One librarian can't talk to every student about the choice they made on what book to check out. Often the class comes in and has about 10-15 minutes for 30 kids to choose a book and get it checked out, so the checkout process is really pretty quick in terms of contact between the student and the person who is doing the checking out (who actually may be a parent volunteer, and don't get me started on confidentiality issues when you have a volunteer making the decision on your child's reading material.) In addition, the reading interests of the children vary. And what parents are okay with their children reading varies. What one parent might find inappropriate for their 3rd grader another may be okay with. As a librarian, we always say the parent needs to make the decision regarding what their child reads and what they don't read. We also encourage the parents to read the material first so that they can make an educated decision. We encourage the parents to talk with their children about what has been read. As a parent, when I had concern about what my child was reading, I spoke with the child. Exactly what the original poster did. Having an honest conversation with your child is going to do more for you than just BANNING materials and not talking about it. Very well said, I have to say some points here give me some ideas for my discussion with the school. It also tempers the anger slightly to see things from the other perspective....thank you. I still think there should have been some way to catch it, and I think it's obvious those books were not appropriate and he should not have been able to take them out, I look forward to talking with the school and seeing what their take on it is. You've had two professionals state that there really isn't. What could that "some way" possibly be? |
2011-03-17 2:54 PM in reply to: #3401821 |
Veteran 221 | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) Ok. Parent of two in elem school. My solution: Let the library supply the books. When the child comes home, look through the school bag. If you don't approve: explain you don't approve. Remove from childs posession. "But what about the time when the child has already looked at it??! In school... on the bus... etc.?" Oh well. You can't pad the world. At least the kid will be getting an idea of what's expected, appropriate reading material to bring home. Also, explain to the child that if they keep looking at this stuff (at school, on the bus with their friend who took it out)... don't come crying to me in the middle of the night because you're having bad dreams. You don't want bad dreams? Don't look at it. Kids are smart enough to get that. Edited by Frank in St. Louis 2011-03-17 2:56 PM |
2011-03-17 2:58 PM in reply to: #3402467 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) Frank in St. Louis - 2011-03-18 4:54 AM Ok. Parent of two in elem school. My solution: Let the library supply the books. When the child comes home, look through the school bag. If you don't approve: explain you don't approve. Remove from childs posession. "But what about the time when the child has already looked at it??! In school... on the bus... etc.?" Oh well. You can't pad the world. At least the kid will be getting an idea of what's expected, appropriate reading material to bring home. Also, explain to the child that if they keep looking at this stuff... don't come crying to me in the middle of the night because you're having bad dreams. You don't want bad dreams? Don't look at it. Kids are smart enough to get that. No, no, no. That's way too easy. We need to devise a complex, possibly expensive, system whereby the child can never even check out such books in the first place. What system and what "such books" are, c'mon, that's just details. Really. It's the responsibility of the paid professionals at the school to worry about those. Not yours as the child's parent. Edited by TriAya 2011-03-17 2:59 PM |
2011-03-17 2:59 PM in reply to: #3402467 |
Extreme Veteran 340 | Subject: RE: Am I right to be angry..........(warning images are horrid) Frank in St. Louis - 2011-03-17 1:54 PM Ok. Parent of two in elem school. My solution: Let the library supply the books. When the child comes home, look through the school bag. If you don't approve: explain you don't approve. Remove from childs posession. "But what about the time when the child has already looked at it??! In school... on the bus... etc.?" Oh well. You can't pad the world. At least the kid will be getting an idea of what's expected, appropriate reading material to bring home. Also, explain to the child that if they keep looking at this stuff (at school, on the bus with their friend who took it out)... don't come crying to me in the middle of the night because you're having bad dreams. You don't want bad dreams? Don't look at it. Kids are smart enough to get that.
D@mn you and your common sense! |
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