General Discussion Triathlon Talk » which Heart rate method Rss Feed  
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2007-01-13 4:41 PM

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Subject: which Heart rate method
Which heart rate method do many of you use. I've been montoring my hr for about a year, but that's it--i don't know my LT or anything. I know my zones based on the age method, but don't really try to use them.

I guess i really need to start using a method...


2007-01-13 4:53 PM
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Subject: RE: which Heart rate method
2007-01-13 7:07 PM
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Subject: RE: which Heart rate method
for once the bear and i agree.  just do the test and go into the settings for your training log.  There is a HR section where you can put in your LT hr (from the test) and it gives you your zones.  Remember you need to test your running LT and cycling LT seperately (and on different days)
2007-01-14 6:27 AM
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Subject: RE: which Heart rate method
2007-01-14 7:28 AM
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Subject: RE: which Heart rate method

goobergirl98 - 2007-01-13 4:41 PM Which heart rate method do many of you use. I've been montoring my hr for about a year, but that's it--i don't know my LT or anything. I know my zones based on the age method, but don't really try to use them. I guess i really need to start using a method...

If you weren't really trying to use your different zones in training when you calculated your zones based on the age method (regardless how flawed they are), why will calculating new zones based on a time trail effort make you any more likely to use them in training?  

As you say, you really need to start using a method, but more importantly you need to start using the zones for their intended purposes.  Good luck.

2007-01-14 7:34 AM
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Subject: RE: which Heart rate method
I have used MANY methods and find the LT method the best, but you have to use it.  I find that I don't do my LT testing nearly enough, although it is a great workout when I do.


2007-01-14 9:47 AM
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Subject: RE: which Heart rate method

Using a formula like the 220- age method won’t necessarily provide you with accurate training zones because it was developed to apply for many. This means that you could be training at a lower or higher intensity hence it might setback your training. Attempting to test your MaxHR would be another option to set up training zones the main problem with it is that it is very hard to really push yourself to the max.

Anyway when training you should work towards improving different aspects (physiologically speaking) such as lactate acid clearance and the metabolizing of fuel for energy just to name a few. Rather simple this will allow you to get fitter, go longer, go faster, etc. Having a testing method which is easier to do, easier to repeat, comparable to performance (racing) and that provides accurate numbers or good guesstimates such as a Lab LT or time trial field test will allow you to improve quicker.

Good luck!

2007-01-14 10:14 AM
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Subject: RE: which Heart rate method
I'm sorry to be a complete idiot here, but I have now idea what the cited thread means. Here's a clip from the suggested testing method:

Run test protocol:

After a 15 minute warm-up of easy running, finish with a few quick 20 seconds bursts to get your heart rate in the correct training zone.

The 30 minute TT begins.
At 10 minutes into the test, hit the 'Lap' button on your heart rate monitor, to get the average heart rate over the final 20 minutes of the test.
The average for the final 20 minutes is your Lactate Threshold or LT.
You should finish knowing you gave it everything you had.
15 minutes easy cool down.


Starting at "the 30 minute TT begins", I'm a bit perplexed at what it is I'm supposed to do. Run for 10 minutes at what pace? The last 20 minutes at what pace? A perceived pace results in a subjective test that is hardly related to my actualy maximum heart rate but rather related to my personal tolerance for discomfort.

HELP!!

2007-01-14 10:26 AM
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Subject: RE: which Heart rate method
Here's my interpretation:

Step 1: Warm-up for 15 minutes.
Step 2: Run all out for 30 minutes.
-10 minutes into step 2, hit the lap button.
-At the end of step 2, hit the lap button.
Step 3: Cool-down for 15 minutes.

You're right in a sense that it's "related to my personal tolerance for discomfort." The idea is to run at a pace that you can hold for 30 minutes and at the end feel like you gave it everything you've got.

The result of this test, if performed properly, is your lactate threshold not your max heartrate. So your average heartrate during that 20 minute 'lap' at the end of step two will be your lactate threshold.
2007-01-14 11:57 AM
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Subject: RE: which Heart rate method

that's exactly right.  You want to hold the same effort the entire 30 minutes.  If you have never done this test (or gone all out for 30 minutes), it can be hard to guage what effort level you need to be pushing at.  So your first test might not be as accurate, but it still should be close enough.  If you start to feel like you are going to fast or too slow, make a small change early into the test instead of waiting for the end and dieing or sprinting (or not finishing wiped).

2007-01-14 2:02 PM
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Subject: RE: which Heart rate method
So I would be better off to start out too hard and have to back off a little? That is probably how I would approach it - start off at what I think I can do (which is likely an overestimate) and be forced to slow down a bit while still maintainint "as hard as I can push." Is that reasonable?

I'm also a bit confused by some contradictory details of how to use the heart rate zones. In one of the sprint training plans, it says:

***
Typically you would train in zones above your endurance zone on your short and medium sessions while saving your long session for the lower endurance zone...an easy pace.
***

While on the D3 Multisport page (linked on the page describing the TT test) it says:

***
Zone 1 – This is considered aerobic and a very easy effort. So easy, that you feel guilty.
When to use Zone 1: Recovery days.
Training Range as a Percentage of LT: Thirty-five or more beats below LT.

Zone 2 – This is an easy effort but not quite as easy as Zone 1. This may be twenty-five beats lower then LT.
When to use Zone 2: Long rides and runs.
Training Range as a Percentage of LT: Twenty-five beats below LT.
***

These seem to contradict each other. The sprint training plan says long days should be the Zone 1 while short days should be Zone 2. (Seems to make sense.) But the D3 page specifically says Zone 2 is for long rides/runs.

What is the truth??? 8^)


2007-01-14 2:27 PM
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Subject: RE: which Heart rate method

I shoot for a pace that is hard, but doesn't quite feel like the hardest I can go.  By the end it works out to be the right pace.  I would say it would be better to go a hair bit easier and then up your pace if you need to at the 10 minute mark.

in terms of zones.... This is my interpretation, how I've used them, and it has worked very well for me.

Zone 1:  muscular adaptation.  I use it for distances which I am not comfortable with yet.  For instace, the first time I ran 10 miles, I did so in zone 1.  The next few times I ran that distance, I used zone 1 until I got to the point that running the distance was easy.  When I could go for a 10 mile run and finish up feeling fresh, then I moved on.

Zone 2:  Once I was used to the distance (zone 1 running), I pushed the tempo up into zone 2.  So most of my runs were done in zone 2, except for distances I was not yet comfortable running.

Make sense?  Same goes for riding.  The difference with riding, is that I also do recovery rides which are zone 1 and shorter distance.

2007-01-14 3:40 PM
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Subject: RE: which Heart rate method
That makes perfect sense. Thank you for the details and explanations!!

2007-01-14 7:33 PM
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Subject: RE: which Heart rate method
KirkD - 2007-01-14 1:02 PM

So I would be better off to start out too hard and have to back off a little? That is probably how I would approach it - start off at what I think I can do (which is likely an overestimate) and be forced to slow down a bit while still maintainint "as hard as I can push." Is that reasonable?


It's better to start a little below what you think you can do like Vortmax said. Working above your LT intensity consumes glycogen (energy) exponentially faster than workout out below it. If you start out to hard, you may completely fizzle by the end, and you'll have a dud test, but you will have learned that you need to go slower. If you start out a little too slow, you can continue increasing the effort just a bit as you go. By the end of the test, you should have a pretty good feel for whether or not you have ended up at the right pace. Again the test may not be precise, but you will have learned from the test itself on how hard to go for next time.

When trying to determine lactate threshold heart rate, it's better to err on the low side than the high side.


I'm also a bit confused by some contradictory details of how to use the heart rate zones. In one of the sprint training plans, it says:

***
Typically you would train in zones above your endurance zone on your short and medium sessions while saving your long session for the lower endurance zone...an easy pace.
***

While on the D3 Multisport page (linked on the page describing the TT test) it says:

***
Zone 1 – This is considered aerobic and a very easy effort. So easy, that you feel guilty.
When to use Zone 1: Recovery days.
Training Range as a Percentage of LT: Thirty-five or more beats below LT.

Zone 2 – This is an easy effort but not quite as easy as Zone 1. This may be twenty-five beats lower then LT.
When to use Zone 2: Long rides and runs.
Training Range as a Percentage of LT: Twenty-five beats below LT.
***

These seem to contradict each other. The sprint training plan says long days should be the Zone 1 while short days should be Zone 2. (Seems to make sense.) But the D3 page specifically says Zone 2 is for long rides/runs.

What is the truth??? 8^)


THese are actually saying the same thing. The description you posted from the sprint plan simply states "above endurance zone" and "below endurance zone". I would guess that this refers to above the zone 2/zone 3 border and below that border. Is there a description elsewhere in the sprint plans that tell you what the "endurance zone" refers to specifically?

Both descriptions (BT sprint & D3) say that you should do long runs/rides, etc AND recovery runs/rids in teh "endurance zone", but D3 is specifiying Zone 1 & Zone 2 based on Joe Friel's Zone determination.

The sprint plan is suggesting to go even harder than that on days that are short rides/runs that are not specifically designated as a recovery ride/run (which should be embarasssingly easy).

Whenever you see "Zone 1", "Zone 2", you need to look at what the reference is to, how the zones were defined...is it based on an age based formula, a percentage of maximum HR, a percentage of LT, how was the LT determined, is it a percentage of Vo2 max, etc.

The most common use of Zones 1-5a/c in this forum refers to Joe Friel's definitions originally found in the triathlete's training bible, but there are other methods around...just be sure you are being consistant.
2007-01-15 6:50 AM
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Subject: RE: which Heart rate method

KirkD - 2007-01-14 12:02 PM So I would be better off to start out too hard and have to back off a little? That is probably how I would approach it - start off at what I think I can do (which is likely an overestimate) and be forced to slow down a bit while still maintainint "as hard as I can push." Is that reasonable? I'm also a bit confused by some contradictory details of how to use the heart rate zones. In one of the sprint training plans, it says: *** Typically you would train in zones above your endurance zone on your short and medium sessions while saving your long session for the lower endurance zone...an easy pace. *** While on the D3 Multisport page (linked on the page describing the TT test) it says: *** Zone 1 – This is considered aerobic and a very easy effort. So easy, that you feel guilty. When to use Zone 1: Recovery days. Training Range as a Percentage of LT: Thirty-five or more beats below LT. Zone 2 – This is an easy effort but not quite as easy as Zone 1. This may be twenty-five beats lower then LT. When to use Zone 2: Long rides and runs. Training Range as a Percentage of LT: Twenty-five beats below LT. *** These seem to contradict each other. The sprint training plan says long days should be the Zone 1 while short days should be Zone 2. (Seems to make sense.) But the D3 page specifically says Zone 2 is for long rides/runs. What is the truth??? 8^)

Start easier, and build into the test, not the opposite. You want to finish strong, not blown to pieces.

The definitions on the D3 page are correct. Recovery days are Z1 - for a website such as this with beginners being the majority, I wouldn't have someone go long at Z2 - they would wind up pretty tired! So, if we can introduce some Z2 work on shorter days that would be best for the newbie. Hope that makes sense to you!

2007-01-15 10:24 AM
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Subject: RE: which Heart rate method
Thanks to everyone for clarifying things! It all makes much more sense now. The only thing to do at this point is a proper test and start working in The Zone.

-Kirk


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