General Discussion Triathlon Talk » What went wrong? Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 1
 
 
2008-08-18 5:01 PM

User image

Veteran
118
100
Skokie, IL
Subject: What went wrong?
I did my first triathlon yesterday, a HIM. I felt great through the swim and bike and even was doing decent through the run until mile 8 where I bonked. I felt light headed, dizzy and nauseous and walked 8-11 while I crammed down 3 Gus and then felt good enough to run in the last 2 miles. I still can't figure out what went wrong but here are the particulars.

I took a Gu and red bull before the swim. I took one at the beginning and every half hour on the bike (3+ hours). I drank 90% Powerade/Gatorade Endurance and 10% water and took in 110-130 oz of fluid on the bike which is even a little more than I have been doing during long training rides.

On the run I started out at a good pace for two miles, but felt I didn't have it in me to keep the pace for 13 so I decided to back off and walk through the aid stations and push the liquids still taking a Gu every half hour. Its hard to tell how much liquid, but 1/2 medium size cup of Powerade and 1/2 cup water every mile. The temp was in the low 80's but no cloud coverage at the time and no breeze. I didn't feel hot, but still was putting ice in my cap. At about mile 5-6 I actually had to pee and my pee was bright green. Walked up part of a hill to the turnaround and then started back feeling pretty good. All the time my HR was 135-140, which for me is LT range 3 at best.

As soon as I past the water station at mile 8 is when I felt the nausea and dizzyness and lightheadedness. My muscles felt fine and wanted to run but I just kept walking. My breathing was quick but shallow and my heart rate was the same. Finally my heart rate dropped to about 100 and I pushed a lot of liquid and forced down 3 Gus. After digging deep and walking for 2 1/2 miles I started to feel better and then almost back to normal.

As I am new to the sport (done some Marathons but never a Tri), I can't tell what went wrong.

Some thoughts I have had:
Not enough liquid
Not enough nourishment
Heat
Should have supplemented with salt/electrolyte
Too much liquid

Any thougths are appreciated.


2008-08-18 5:21 PM
in reply to: #1611665

User image

Master
1741
100050010010025
Chapel Hill, NC
Subject: RE: What went wrong?
First of all - you FINISHED!!! Congrats.

My analysis: Not enough bike training. I don't know if your logs are up to date: They show you only rode your bike 200 miles in July and 900 miles all year. That's not enough to put in a strong finish in a 1/2 iron race. Thus, you probably spent everything you had on the bike, and didn't much left for the run.

It takes three years of consistent training to develop strong endurance in the bike. i.e., three years of riding 50 miles a week. So, keep on riding!

Edited by keyone 2008-08-18 5:25 PM
2008-08-18 6:13 PM
in reply to: #1611665

User image

Expert
3324
20001000100100100
central Iowa
Subject: RE: What went wrong?

If you're logs are up to date.  I would echo Keytone on the bike.  But your swimming and running seem a bit inconsistent as well, which will all add up, especially for your first tri.  Did you practice your nutrition on your long rides?  One of the golden rules of longer distance races that I've seen here is don't try anything new on race day.  My recommendation for next time would be:

- more consistent training (assuming your logs are correct)

- a good nutrition and pacing strategy

- a shorter distance race as a "tune-up"

- not trying anything new on race day

- following a good plan that works with your schedule 

Congratulations on finishing. 

2008-08-18 6:38 PM
in reply to: #1611665

User image

Champion
19812
50005000500020002000500100100100
MA
Subject: RE: What went wrong?
First tri HIM? That may be your issue.Tris especially longer ones are all about pacing. Did you pace similar to how you have done in training?Again like others have said it is hard to know as we don't know if you followed a training plan and your training.Congrats on finishing your first tri and a HIM too!
2008-08-18 6:42 PM
in reply to: #1611665

User image

Veteran
118
100
Skokie, IL
Subject: RE: What went wrong?
Thanks, I realize I didn't have enough overall bike (I didn't get a bike till the spring and in Chicago we had a cold and rainy spring that delayed things a bit). I did several 3+ hour rides however and never had problems. I wasn't fast, but my HR was always Zone 1-3. The race yesterday had lots and lots of rolling hills that I wasn't used to due to being a flatlander and I purposely backed off a bit on the bike to make sure I had enough for the run.

My nutrition was the same as I trained and I purposely made sure not to introduce anything new for the race.

I definately know that shorter races would have helped, but a change in jobs made even finding the training time difficult. I tried to follow the 20 week beginner HIM plan and got about 85-90% of the hours in except for the week I was out with a bad neck (It was a recovery week)

I still wonder if something was off with the nutrition. I figured I easily had 400 cal hour or more.
2008-08-18 7:09 PM
in reply to: #1611665

User image

Master
1741
100050010010025
Chapel Hill, NC
Subject: RE: What went wrong?
Hills can take an awful lot out of you if you aren't trained for them. That's probably what tanked you.

Note that a "beginner training plan" is designed to get you across the finish line. And that's what it did.

Be patient and keep tri-ing. You will eventually figure it all out after many, many races. I finally have figured out my pacing and nutrition and hydration for olympic distance races (and hopefull HIM too). The first year, I went too easy on the bike and had great runs. The second year I went too hard on the bike and had crappy runs. This spring I learned that I was really low on electrolytes. After doing one particularly hilly race, I craved salt for two days. Now I take NUUN. I had to experiment with how much to take. It's different for each person.

I still have not "finished well" in an HIM race. We'll see next month if I can do better this year.

I really enjoy the challenge of figuring it out, but it does take time and persistence. Happy training!



2008-08-18 9:16 PM
in reply to: #1611665

User image

Extreme Veteran
644
50010025
Anaheim
Subject: RE: What went wrong?

nausea and dizzyness and lightheadedness. My muscles felt fine and wanted to run but I just kept walking. My breathing was quick but shallow and my heart rate was the same. Finally my heart rate dropped to about 100 and I pushed a lot of liquid and forced down 3 Gus. .

That's not a bonk. If you bonked you would feel so weak your finish would be in question. Quick and shallow respiration and a quick pitty patter heart is a symptom of overheating. Although weakness is usually a symptom too. You took in so many gels I feel a halloween candy stomach ache reading this. Its possible you had so much sugar and junk in your stomach you were dehydrated from not geting enough plain water or just ill from all the sugar.

According to your post you took in around 2700 calories of sugar not including the redbull. Even if your race lasted 7 hours that is high.

I'd say you just made yourself sick from all the gu and powerade combo.

2008-08-18 9:43 PM
in reply to: #1611665

User image

Elite
3088
20001000252525
Austin, TX
Gold member
Subject: RE: What went wrong?
I'd have to agree that you had too many calories.

Based on what you've said, you had at least 600 calories from GU (2 per hour for 3 hours) plus another 800 or so in Powerade (120 oz * 90% = 108 oz @ 8 oz per serving = 13.5 servings @ 60 calories per serving). That's 1400+ calories in 3 hours. Average digestion rates for most people are around 300 to (maybe) 400 calories per hour. And even that absorption rate is only when you optimize the solution. Again, for most people that's a solution of 6-8% carbs. Powerade and Gatorade are (as you'd expect) right in that range. With 2 Gu's per hour, your ratio got a bit above that.

Now, that's for future reference. In this particular case, you didn't mention feeling bloated or like you couldn't take anything more in, so it might not have hurt you.

What I really want to hear, though, is what you had before the race. The only thing you mention is a Gu and a Red Bull. If that's really all you had, that could be a big part of the problem. Consider that you burned at least 300 or so during the swim and 1700+ on the bike. That's 2000 calories burned and maybe 1100 or so absorbed (not consumed) by the time you started the run.

The other factor is going to be the first sentence of your post "my first triathlon yesterday, a HIM." Unless you've got a background with a huge base in cycling or running, it's going to take some time to really build that base. It's also going to take some races to learn your pacing. It's completely possible that you just went too hard on the bike and your conditioning wasn't up for it.
2008-08-18 10:12 PM
in reply to: #1611665

User image

Expert
936
50010010010010025
Springfield, MO
Subject: RE: What went wrong?

What about something that caused a blood sugar issue (redbull shortly before start?).  Worth some research. 

If you're interested PM me and I'll find you a link.

Good Job nonetheless

2008-08-18 11:05 PM
in reply to: #1611665

User image

Veteran
118
100
Skokie, IL
Subject: RE: What went wrong?
Actually too many calories is something I never considered. I do have a bit of a running background and have always used gels around every 40 minutes. In a 4 hour marathon I wouldn't get as filled up as in a 6-7 hr HIM. I actually went to gels every half hour over concerned I wouldn't be getting enough nutrition (I did ask a couple of experienced triathletes about this and they thought it was ok), I never considered I would be overdoing it.

As for overheating, my heart rate was pretty normal, zone 2-3 and then went right to 100 when walking.

As far as before the race, I usually don't do breakfast, but when training I take a banana and or granola/energy bar with a large coffee when I get up. I have taken the Red Bull also, but usually when there is a long time between waking and the race as in this case. I did do something different that I just remembered, the Gu before the swim. I never considered that I might need more nutrition before the race.

I have learned a lot from this race and I knew going in that I was biting off an awful lot by doing a HIM as a first race, unfortuanately life had its limitations. I understand better that nutrition is more than just forcing calories, etc. and need to pay more attention (along with more bike time)
2008-08-18 11:23 PM
in reply to: #1611665

User image

Member
35
25
Fort Worth
Subject: RE: What went wrong?

Congrats on finishing your first half!  Sometimes doing is the best way we learn.Laughing

Its good you watch your HR because that definately affects your nutrition.  In general, without knowing more about you its hard to comment, but a couple of thoughts:

I would add in not enough water.  Just good plain water...to break down all the fuel you consumed to be utilized by your muscles.  You had a big glob of nutrition in your gut but your muscles were tapped.  As crazy as it sounds with all the powerade you drank, you were probably dehydrated.

Nutrition strategy should include:  Water-Fuel-Electrolytes---if it has calories, its fuel and can't be counted as water.   So, learn your sweat rate for water and electrolytes (yes salt tabs may have been a good idea but not if you haven't tried it in training), and monitor how much food you can digest and absorb to determine fuel needs. 

Gu is made to be consumed with water, not Powerade.  As someone touched on, too many carbs at a concentration that can't be utilized. 



2008-08-19 9:18 AM
in reply to: #1612563

Elite
3650
200010005001002525
Laurium, MI
Subject: RE: What went wrong?

McLuvin - 2008-08-19 12:05 AM

I actually went to gels every half hour over concerned I wouldn't be getting enough nutrition (I did ask a couple of experienced triathletes about this and they thought it was ok), I never considered I would be overdoing it.

That part is okay.  It's the powerade on top of it.   Your stomach needs it's contents to be at a particular concentration before it can be easily digested.  When you overload it with sugar like that, your stomach can actually pull in water to drop the concentration so it can digest it.  End result is that it takes longer to digest and (if the concentration is high enough) cause your stomach to temporarily rob the rest of your body of fluids.

As was mentioned earlier, you started with a calorie deficit and tried to make up for it later.  I think that combined with a  hypertonic gut, probably led to the issue (combined with heat as well)

The short version is if you tried that exact nutrition plan in training, you probably would have found the issue.   So if you like gels, stick to gels and water in training for a while and see how you do.

2008-08-19 9:44 AM
in reply to: #1611665

User image

Extreme Veteran
580
500252525
Kansas City, MO
Subject: RE: What went wrong?

McLuvin - 2008-08-18 5:01  At about mile 5-6 I actually had to pee and my pee was bright green. 

Green? Really?  That doesn't seem too normal to me, a good indicator something was a little out of whack.  I'd echo the not enough H2O + a lot of undigested sugars/carbs as being part of the issue, combined with the aerobic base on the bike.  Of course, if you're still peeing green, I'd go see a doctor.... 

2008-08-19 9:56 AM
in reply to: #1611665

User image

Not a Coach
11473
5000500010001001001001002525
Media, PA
Subject: RE: What went wrong?

Lack of appropriate training. 

Sounds like you may have overdone the calories, but doubt that's what caused you to slow down. 

To finish a HIM feeling strong, you have to have very good swim, bike & run fitness.  And, sorry if this seems too blunt, you don't appear to have that from your logs.

Congrats on finishing a challenging event, though!

2008-08-19 11:33 AM
in reply to: #1611665

User image

Veteran
118
100
Skokie, IL
Subject: RE: What went wrong?
How do you ensure enough water-sports drink ratio? How much water is needed to "process" a gel. I remember when getting into marathons, my "advisor/coach" mentioning that I needed water for the gels, but I have always kind of disregarded this out of my desire to keep my nutrition simple. If you are at a running aid station, do you pick between water and sports drink? If its mixed/diluted is that going to defeat the purpose of taking pure water?


JohnnyKay:
I appreciate your bluntness and realize I only logged 90% of the training plan, I also agree with the first post that the lack of and hill riding took its toll more than I realized. Still, I think my issues were more nutritionally/hydration related. My muscles were fine and could have gone harder. My heart rate was fine also. After recovering by walking those three miles, I was able to run the last 2 and probably could have gone anothe couple at that pace. I am not diminishing the amount of training and effort to finish a HIM strong, and have even more respect for the sport then ever before, but I still don't see the issue as purely lack of training.

Also, I appreciate all the feedback and support this site provides. As far as online forums, this place rocks! I never could have come close to doing that race without it.
2008-08-19 11:43 AM
in reply to: #1613583

User image

Not a Coach
11473
5000500010001001001001002525
Media, PA
Subject: RE: What went wrong?

McLuvin - 2008-08-19 12:33 PM

Still, I think my issues were more nutritionally/hydration related. My muscles were fine and could have gone harder. My heart rate was fine also. After recovering by walking those three miles, I was able to run the last 2 and probably could have gone anothe couple at that pace. I am not diminishing the amount of training and effort to finish a HIM strong, and have even more respect for the sport then ever before, but I still don't see the issue as purely lack of training.

And I still think your focusing in the wrong area.  What you descibe is exactly what you would expect to happen in the late stages of a long race as fatigue catches up to you.  That's a fitness (and pacing) issue far more than nutrition.

 

P.S.  I'm really not trying to pick on you, but many of the people who struggle at long course tris feel that nutrition/hydration was their downfall.  In fact, for most of them (while their nutrition/hydration could have been better) it's simply an issue of fitness level and pacing.  Everyone likes to think they're the exception.  I've been there myself. 



2008-08-19 11:49 AM
in reply to: #1613583

Elite
3650
200010005001002525
Laurium, MI
Subject: RE: What went wrong?

McLuvin - 2008-08-19 12:33 PM How do you ensure enough water-sports drink ratio? How much water is needed to "process" a gel. I remember when getting into marathons, my "advisor/coach" mentioning that I needed water for the gels, but I have always kind of disregarded this out of my desire to keep my nutrition simple. If you are at a running aid station, do you pick between water and sports drink? If its mixed/diluted is that going to defeat the purpose of taking pure water? 

If I'm using gels, I just use gels and water.  When I ran my marathon, I would take a gel just before an aid station then grab water.  1/2 cup was enough.  Now this race was supplying HEED, which is Hammer's sports drink (I use hammer gel), so on aid stations that I didn't take gel, I was taking HEED.  That was just a combo that I knew worked from training, but I always chased gel with water.

I have also done longer rides (90+ miles) on gels, Gatorade and solid foods (power bars, etc).  Again, formula determined through training, and gels and food were always chased with water, saving Gatorade for the  occasional 'in between time'.

You just have to play with it and see what works.

2008-08-19 11:51 AM
in reply to: #1613614

User image

Master
1741
100050010010025
Chapel Hill, NC
Subject: RE: What went wrong?
JohnnyKay - 2008-08-19 12:43 PM
  • ... In fact, for most of them (while their nutrition/hydration could have been better) it's simply an issue of fitness level and pacing. Everyone likes to think they're the exception. I've been there myself.



  • I agree and me too. It takes three years to get good on the bike.

    "Be Patient With the Bike"
  • ..Peter Reid’s advice to Faris Al-Sultan in What it Takes

  • 2008-08-19 12:26 PM
    in reply to: #1611665

    User image

    Champion
    9407
    500020002000100100100100
    Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
    Subject: RE: What went wrong?

    Although it appears your caloric intake was too high, I agree with JK that it was most likely a pacing/fitness issue.  Unless you were extremely bloated or vomiting then you were processing (albeit maybe slowly) what you were ingesting.

    Great work finishing the race, now you can take the lessons you've learned and apply it to your future racing and training.

    Shane

    2008-08-19 1:33 PM
    in reply to: #1611665

    User image

    Veteran
    118
    100
    Skokie, IL
    Subject: RE: What went wrong?
    I guess I am trying to understand what everyone means by fitness. I thought that generally fitness is a measure of the combination of intensity and endurance. I read Friel's TTTB and have been basically using LT zones like he suggests. I didn't use RPE much except the swim since I think it requires more time overall to dial in those zones (at least for me).

    So in my training I completed most of the sessions generally in the duration and intensity prescribed. I felt pretty good overall about my training (given some personal issues/contstraints) and felt "fit".

    In the race, I felt my pace was definately right, the ride was difficult (the elites were running 10+ minutes slower than last year's course), but upon realizing how hilly it was, I slowed my pace even more. My run pace was purposely slowed as I even decided to walk through the aid stations, which I had never done in a marathon.

    So I am still confused (not offended) by the comments about my fitness. I am new to this, but my understanding is that if your muscles are conditioned appropriately and your HR/respiration is within certain zones and you fuel correctly, you shouldn't feel as I did.
    2008-08-19 1:51 PM
    in reply to: #1613977

    User image

    Not a Coach
    11473
    5000500010001001001001002525
    Media, PA
    Subject: RE: What went wrong?

    It's simply endurance. 

    Look at your training load.  Rarely a week with over 2 hours of swimming, generally pretty modest biking and running--some decent weeks with some very light weeks and some modest weeks all mixed in.  There's nothing "wrong" with any of that, but it's going to take you a long time at that rate to build up enough endurance to get through a HIM "comfortably". 

    Endurance just takes time and consistency.  Your consistency was mixed and your time has been fairly limited.  You can work on the former as much as the rest of your life allows and the latter just takes...time. 



    2008-08-19 2:52 PM
    in reply to: #1611665

    User image

    New user
    159
    1002525
    Subject: RE: What went wrong?

    Man, don't beat yourself up too much.  I did Pigman as well and that run was brutal.  There were a lot of folks crashing and burning between miles 8-11.

    You finished a half-iron.  That in and of itself is an accomplishment.  The run leg of pretty much everyone's first tri tends to be a total trainwreck (I know mine certainly was).  The fact that you made it to mile 65 of the race before the wheels came off means you're doing something right.

    That being said, I have to agree with what JohnnyKay has been saying.  You can get to the finish line of a half-iron in one piece on your training volume, but it will never be pretty.  You just have to put in the hours and be patient.  There are no shortcuts. 

     

    2008-08-19 3:16 PM
    in reply to: #1614209

    User image

    Veteran
    118
    100
    Skokie, IL
    Subject: RE: What went wrong?
    Giant Tortoise - 2008-08-19 2:52 PM

    Man, don't beat yourself up too much.  I did Pigman as well and that run was brutal.  There were a lot of folks crashing and burning between miles 8-11.



    I'm not beating myself up, I actually had fun and enjoyed myself except those 3 miles, I actually just want to get better. The message is clear, more training, more consistant training, more detail to nutrition especially water instead of Powerade. I look forward to testing everyone's theories!
    2008-08-19 3:49 PM
    in reply to: #1611665

    User image

    New user
    159
    1002525
    Subject: RE: What went wrong?

    That's cool.  It sounds like you certainly have the right idea.  Nutrition is such an individual thing that its almost impossible for strangers on the internet to give specific advice that's worth anything.

    It's one thing to say to aim for 250-300 cal/hr or whatever, that's more or less the middle of the bell curve for what a person can absorb and is as good a starting point as any.  How you take in those calories is something you're going to have to figure out through trial and error.  I know for me personally, on the bike I could eat burritos and hot wings and go all day.  But on the run its straight water and one GU every 4 miles.  Anything beyond that and it feels like an alien baby is trying to kick its way out of my stomach.  But it took me a couple trips into the puke zone to figure this out.

    2008-08-19 4:51 PM
    in reply to: #1613977

    User image

    Master
    1741
    100050010010025
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Subject: RE: What went wrong?
    McLuvin - 2008-08-19 2:33 PM

    I guess I am trying to understand what everyone means by fitness. I thought that generally fitness is a measure of the combination of intensity and endurance. I read Friel's TTTB and have been basically using LT zones like he suggests. I didn't use RPE much except the swim since I think it requires more time overall to dial in those zones (at least for me)....


    Friel's TTTB is great stuff - so keep that up! And you did great at your race! And it sounds like you not only picked a hard distance, but a hard course! Maybe you expected to feel strong in the run after THAT bike ride the way you have felt strong when you've done marathons in the past. But the bike really does take alot out of you. And running 1/2 marathon after a hard hilly bike is just plain hard! My first two 1/2 irons played out exactly this way. Maybe it won't take you three years (I am probably older than you), but give it time and you will one day do a race where you do feel strong on the run, and then you'll know it all finally came together.

    Someone wrote me a private message asking where I got the idea that it takes three years to get good on the bike. Here is my answer to them, which I thought maybe would help.

    Way back in 2005 I first started tri's and I was thinking about buying a decent bike. I asked a couple questions in a biking forum. It was a response to my question there that first planted the idea that it takes three years to get good on the bike. Then I heard it again in reference to the Tour de France and why the best guys are late 20's / early 30's. And again heard it in the movie "What it Takes". Peter Reid said more than just "Be patient with the bike", but I can' t remember the entire quote, but it was something to the effect that it takes a few years.

    I think I put about 50 miles a week on the bike on average the past three years. More during peak season (like now). Less during off season. This is actually low mileage for a biker!

    I dug up my old question from google archive, see below. Actually, this guy was 100% correct, at least for me. It took me two years to THINK I was good at the bike. Now, three years later, I THINK I am just now getting good on the bike. I finally did a race this year where I smoked the bike, yet it felt easy, and then I had enough left to put in a solid run. That was an olympic race... I have not done the 1/2 iron yet this year, so will let you know if it all comes together on that day :) THIS YEAR. I'm not going to expect to do great this year, tho, because last year I expected to do great, and was so terribly disappointed.

    This is what I wrote three years ago...

    >Hi,

    >I'm a newbie at triathlons and have bike related 2 questions. I have
    >been using a 1999 Trek 500 Mountain bike that I put road tires on. It
    >has a triple crank. It's very hilly near me and I use all the gears,
    >and on the worst hills, I use granny gear. The best speed I can
    >average over an hour long bike ride is 14 MPH. On flat ground, I can
    >easily maintain 16 MPH.

    Being a newbie myself, I can comment a little. If you're riding very
    hilly terrain, especially if it's dirt or packed sand, then 14mph over
    an hour is about where you should be. I'm assuming you'd just like to
    complete a sprint triathlon.

    Give yourself about 16 months to start to see if you have any talent.
    It takes some time to develop the body system, legs and lungs. For
    youngsters, I think 2-3 years of base building is not unreasonable.
    For mature riders (like me), it's more like 3-5 years of base-building
    is common particularly if there's fat to lose.

    >I found a used 2002 Quintana Roo Kilo that has a double crankset.

    >My 2 questions are:

    >#1) will a double crankset be adequate for my hilly riding conditions?

    Unlikely - you've said you're using granny gear now (30x25?). Give it
    another year before you decide to go to a double. You'll know when
    you're ready!

    >#2) how much difference in my AVS can I expect by upgrading my bike?
    >I mean, is my slowness due to my lack of ability, or is it due to the
    >crappy bike I'm using.

    Very little. If you're riding a 20lb bike at 14mph avg, upgrading
    anything is unlikely to do anything for you this soon. According to
    the link I found to your bike type, it -is- a Triathlon bike.
    Upgrading from this bike, if it's fitting you isn't worth it, imo.

    What's your training schedule like (for the bike)?

    jj



    Edited by keyone 2008-08-19 5:15 PM
    New Thread
    General Discussion Triathlon Talk » What went wrong? Rss Feed  
     
     
    of 1