General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Define Elevation Gain for me... Rss Feed  
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2008-02-15 4:41 PM

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Subject: Define Elevation Gain for me...
I think most of the brain cells must be used up for the week.

I was looking at stats for a 50K trail run, and came away confused by the elevation gain numbers they referenced. It stated a gain of 3,185', yet the highest "peak" was maybe around 1,100'.

Is it the cumulative elevation gain then?? So if I run over a rolling hill with say a 100' elevation and do it 2x, then my elevation gain would be 200'??

Too much thinking for a Friday afternoon...


2008-02-15 4:45 PM
in reply to: #1215235

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Subject: RE: Define Elevation Gain for me...
I never understood either but check out this link
2008-02-15 4:48 PM
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COURT JESTER
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Subject: RE: Define Elevation Gain for me...
My understanding is that it is the sum total of climbing done over a course.
2008-02-15 4:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Define Elevation Gain for me...
Here is why I don't understand elevation gain and maybe it is just the route tracker feature.  Look at this course and explain to me how you can have 2200 feet of gain on a 6 mile course in dallas.  There is no way unless I am missing something.
2008-02-15 4:55 PM
in reply to: #1215253

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Subject: RE: Define Elevation Gain for me...

tupuppy - 2008-02-15 2:48 PM My understanding is that it is the sum total of climbing done over a course.

This is correct.

I wouldn't necessarily trust gmaps or google to give an accurate elevation reading.  Need something that records barometric changes like the Garmin Edge (even the Forerunner, which uses GPS, is notoriously liberal in giving total elevation readings)

2008-02-15 5:06 PM
in reply to: #1215260

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Subject: RE: Define Elevation Gain for me...
kproudfoot - 2008-02-15 2:53 PM

Here is why I don't understand elevation gain and maybe it is just the route tracker feature.  Look at this course and explain to me how you can have 2200 feet of gain on a 6 mile course in dallas.  There is no way unless I am missing something.



Perfect example - now I don't feel so stupid...





2008-02-15 5:37 PM
in reply to: #1215260

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Subject: RE: Define Elevation Gain for me...

kproudfoot - 2008-02-15 2:53 PM Here is why I don't understand elevation gain and maybe it is just the route tracker feature. Look at this course and explain to me how you can have 2200 feet of gain on a 6 mile course in dallas. There is no way unless I am missing something.

I've noticed that sometimes with the route mapper feature that the elevation changes get goofed up.  What I discovered is that, if you open up the course in edit mode, there is a button to 'Reset Elevations' or something like that.  If you click that, at least in my experience, it comes up with a much more reasonable number... 

2008-02-15 5:40 PM
in reply to: #1215264

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Subject: RE: Define Elevation Gain for me...

tupuppy - 2008-02-15 2:48 PM My understanding is that it is the sum total of climbing done over a course.

Correct, elevation gain is the sum total of all climbing done over the course as determined by the points created by clicking on the route. So to get a truly accurate elevation gain value you would need to click at each point where elevation changes.

I wouldn't necessarily trust gmaps or google to give an accurate elevation reading. Need something that records barometric changes like the Garmin Edge (even the Forerunner, which uses GPS, is notoriously liberal in giving total elevation readings)

We don't get elevation values from Google. The primary source for this data is a web service run by the U.S. Geological Survey and if that's down, we use GeoNames which uses a less precise dataset and is a bit slower, but it's better than nothing.

If you have a route that has a flaky elevation gain value, edit the route and use the Reset Elevation Values button. I used it on the route linked to above in Dallas and got a more reasonable result of 335 ft.

2008-02-15 5:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Define Elevation Gain for me...
marmadaddy - 2008-02-15 5:40 PM

tupuppy - 2008-02-15 2:48 PM My understanding is that it is the sum total of climbing done over a course.

Correct, elevation gain is the sum total of all climbing done over the course as determined by the points created by clicking on the route. So to get a truly accurate elevation gain value you would need to click at each point where elevation changes.

I wouldn't necessarily trust gmaps or google to give an accurate elevation reading. Need something that records barometric changes like the Garmin Edge (even the Forerunner, which uses GPS, is notoriously liberal in giving total elevation readings)

We don't get elevation values from Google. The primary source for this data is a web service run by the U.S. Geological Survey and if that's down, we use GeoNames which uses a less precise dataset and is a bit slower, but it's better than nothing.

If you have a route that has a flaky elevation gain value, edit the route and use the Reset Elevation Values button. I used it on the route linked to above in Dallas and got a more reasonable result of 335 ft.

Thanks, did not know you could do that but definately makes more sense.
2008-02-16 11:07 AM
in reply to: #1215235

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Subject: RE: Define Elevation Gain for me...
Elevation gain is complicated. Theoretically, it is the sum total of all climbing done on a course. But you have to define what a climb is. Imagine a perfect sine wave of 10 foot rollers over a long course, you're going to climb a lot of feet, but on a bike, none of it effects your work and it isn't real climbing.

The problem with GPS and barometric pressure altimeters (BP) is that they're not smart enough to error correct or consider flat slighty rolling terrain correctly. If you take a Garmin 305 on a perfectly flat course, error will make it believe you're climbing 5 feet here then 10 feet there. All that error really adds up. Then on an almost flat course, the 10 foot rollers will add up. The flatter the course the more exaggerated the total climbing will be using any GPS or BP device.

A very accurate way to measure a course with fewer long climbs is to take an elevation reading at the bottom and top using GPS or BP of each climb. The error will be small since its only two measurements. You can even confirm the elevations later using the USGS maps at topozone.com. This is what I do since my climbs are many miles long.

On flat courses with lots of little climbs, since the USGS maps are in 40 foot contours, I think for cycling, climbing should be based on 40-foot contours. Simply stated when you cross above one, you've climbed 40 feet, otherwise you've climbed zero feet. This could still be very error-prone. Worst case is that you climb above a 40' contour in mile one and then ride 99 miles of 30' rollers, your total climbing would be 40 feet. On the Garmin it would probably be 4000' or something. The truth is somewhere in between and depends on how you define what a "climb" is.

Adding more complication is that the definition of a "climb" should be different for cycling and running...

Edited by breckview 2008-02-16 11:22 AM
2008-02-17 9:08 AM
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Subject: RE: Define Elevation Gain for me...
It is elevation gain, the question is how did the race director determine the total gain.

With simple gps software and the ability to overlay on a topo map you can get it real close, but I would assume that most base it off of a product like the Garmin 305.

Of course the easiest are the ones that start at a certain elevation and end at the highest point, with a gradual rise to that location.


2008-02-17 9:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Define Elevation Gain for me...

Here's a tip: The new Terrain View on the Route Tracker can be very helpful for this. It shows elevation changes quite well. More gradual changes are seen better with wider zooms and smaller changes with tighter zooms. When creating a route, use Terrain View and create points as near the tops and bottoms of hills and valleys as you can. Points can be dragged if needed.

Also, total climb values on the routes I've been test uploading directly from my Garmin 305 to the Route Tracker have generally varied only a bit (±2%) from the same routes that I've plotted out manually.

Wait, did I say that out loud? Wink

2008-02-17 11:04 AM
in reply to: #1216783

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Subject: RE: Define Elevation Gain for me...
marmadaddy - 2008-02-17 8:31 AM

Also, total climb values on the routes I've been test uploading directly from my Garmin 305 to the Route Tracker have generally varied only a bit (±2%) from the same routes that I've plotted out manually.

Wait, did I say that out loud? Wink



I just used to Route Tracker to trace the route I ride daily in the summer and it came up with 1759' climbing over ~40 miles. In the past, I've manually computed the elevation gain as ~1800' using USGS benchmark elevations and the distance is actually ~42 miles. This route is 100% on a bike path so it's a little hard to track thus the distance difference. The Route Tracker is a very slick feature and very accurate too.

But my Garmin 305 always computes the gain at between 2800'-3000+' depending on the day for an error of over 50%.
2008-02-18 5:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Define Elevation Gain for me...

Sounds like you received some good answers to your inquiry about elevation gain.  Enjoy your 50K.  Is it your first?

Apologies for continuing with the Garmin 305 hijack.  Regarding the Garmin 305, I use the SporTracks software.  One option in the software is to set the smoothing interval.  Because of the inherent inaccuracy of the GPS (I think it's 15' at best with the max number of satellites), the smoothing function, well, smooths out all the reading by reading fluctuations.  I generally use 45 seconds, but in reality, I don't have a good reference to know what the correct amount of smoothing is.  Anyone else have any thoughts on that?

2008-02-18 6:09 PM
in reply to: #1215890

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Subject: RE: Define Elevation Gain for me...

breckview - 2008-02-16 9:07 AM Elevation gain is complicated. Theoretically, it is the sum total of all climbing done on a course. But you have to define what a climb is. Imagine a perfect sine wave of 10 foot rollers over a long course, you're going to climb a lot of feet, but on a bike, none of it effects your work and it isn't real climbing. The problem with GPS and barometric pressure altimeters (BP) is that they're not smart enough to error correct or consider flat slighty rolling terrain correctly. If you take a Garmin 305 on a perfectly flat course, error will make it believe you're climbing 5 feet here then 10 feet there. All that error really adds up. Then on an almost flat course, the 10 foot rollers will add up. The flatter the course the more exaggerated the total climbing will be using any GPS or BP device. A very accurate way to measure a course with fewer long climbs is to take an elevation reading at the bottom and top using GPS or BP of each climb. The error will be small since its only two measurements. You can even confirm the elevations later using the USGS maps at topozone.com. This is what I do since my climbs are many miles long. On flat courses with lots of little climbs, since the USGS maps are in 40 foot contours, I think for cycling, climbing should be based on 40-foot contours. Simply stated when you cross above one, you've climbed 40 feet, otherwise you've climbed zero feet. This could still be very error-prone. Worst case is that you climb above a 40' contour in mile one and then ride 99 miles of 30' rollers, your total climbing would be 40 feet. On the Garmin it would probably be 4000' or something. The truth is somewhere in between and depends on how you define what a "climb" is. Adding more complication is that the definition of a "climb" should be different for cycling and running...

This is right on - but to add a little more - I trust the barometric pressure altimeters a little more than GPS.  As you may or may not know, a GPS triangulates your location.  So, it takes a reading and may put you on the planet 30' from where you stand.  The next second, it puts you 30' on the other side of where you stand.  It takes the averages and assumes you are in the middle.  It is constantly taking readings and adjusting your position.  The more satalites you get, the more accurate the reading.  But since your position is always an "average" of the shots, you would appear to move even if you are standing still.  This error is even bigger for your vertical location.  In fact, if you just stand in a location for an hour with GPS, it will tell you that you had several feet of assent and descent after the hour.  As for the BP device, I think it is a little more accurate, but atmospheric conditions/changing pressure systems can make it look like you assend/descend as well.

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