Long Run for Marathon Training - Daniels' 30% rule

Higdon's beginner plan is to just basically get the runner across the finish line healthy and happy.  Daniels is gearing his stuff to the more serious and/or competitive runner.

If you look at some of Higdon's more advanced plans with more mileage the ratios work out a little better.

With Pfitzinger's plans you will often see multiple 10 - 15 mile runs during the week along with the true "long" run on the weekend.  And while they say to run these medium-long runs at long run pace, they are really more designed as the "easy" pace from Daniels.

Also, Daniels "marathon" pace is actually just that ....... the pace you would run your marathon at.  If you are running 30% there then you would be very well prepared for the race pace.  I do not have the book in front of me, but the "long run" falls more into the "easy" effort percentage which I believe is higher.

He also phases things into 4 phases and each one works on very specific aspects (periodization).  If you look at his plans based on these phases you may see a disproportionate level of E and M work compared to the I and R levels.  This changes as you move into the later phases.

Any marathon plan is more likely to 'break' this rule than most others because the long runs are simply longer than they would be if you were training the same amount of miles, but for a shorter distance race.  Yes, there is more 'risk' to this but if you aren't doing it all the time and you have a good base before starting the plan then you will likely be OK.  If you are going to run 20-22 mile long runs consistently through the year, then you should probably be running 70+ mpw on a consistent basis as well.

No, adding a bike does not help your running ratio.  It's not for cardiovascular fitness reasons that the advice is given.

Thanks "Gurus."  Here's what I have in mind for 2009, when planning an October marathon.  I have 1/2M week 14, HIM week 24 and the marathon week 42.

What "bothers" me about your plan is that you are going from your HIM to an easy week and then BOOM, you are right back to 40 miles again.  Even the fastest people still take 4-1/2 hours or so to do a HIM.  It takes more than a week for your legs to recover from that.  I'd cut back the second week after the HIM to something in the 25-ish range.

Good catch, and for the record, I'll be happy with 5-hours...  I just did Steelhead and can't imagine cranking out 40 miles this week...

I would agree, if doing the half ironman drop back for a week or so and repay yourself for the effort.  The HIM will give you a lot of fitness that you need to recover from.  You get stronger during recovery!  Personally I think going 26 is a little high on the long run but as long as it is easy running and you are careful to listen to your body so be it.  I have a bigger problem with dropping your long run so far out from the race. 

 Here is what goes through my head when I marathon.  Mitochondrial growth occurs over a three week period, exponentially with the third week giving you the least growth (as a response to volume stimulus).  The decay is somewhat similar.  Hence you do not have to stay at peak volume for long, but it needs to be somewhat close to your goal race.  The farthest out I can see dropping the long run would be three weeks out (say 20-22ish) and then 15-18ish two weeks out.  They do say that you should do a volume reduction taper but keep the quality there up until race day. 

As for Daniel's 30% rule, that was written with purely runners in mind and also it is a rule not a law of physics.  I think if you are combining this with triathlon training you really strip your typical running program down by losing the fitness mileage (some call them junk miles but I do not agree).  In place of those miles you have the aerobic benefit of cross training bike and swim.  As a triathlete your % long run will be well over what runners do.  Three rules to marathoning are get your longs in, get your longs in, gets you longs in!  As you are toward the end of your training make certain you pick it up for the last 4-10 miles of your long run (around target marathon pace). Good luck in your training.

Thanks a ton.  That makes sense. 

I planned on doing my last long run (18-miles) 3 weeks out.  I've done a total of three 20-mile runs (once before each of my three marathons).  None were pretty...  Is there that much of a difference between a 20 and 18-mile run?  For recovery, 18 is much easier, but do I loose that much opportunity to build fitness, especially if I've done two 18's and two 20's in the previous 8 weeks?  Net is 5 runs of 18-20 miles over a 9-week period and a typical 3-week taper.

I do plan on marathon paced portions on every other long run starting in July; working from 4 up to 12 miles at marathon pace (12 miles at MP on my 2nd 20-mile run).  Of course, I also have tempo runs (up to 7 miles), 1600m cruise-intervals (up to 7X with 1min RI), and 1200m VO2-max intervals (up to 5X with equal recovery time) as part of the program as well...but that's another thread altogether...  No intervals shorter than 1200m after the HIM.  I do plan on 800's (up to 10X) on my 1/2M and HIM build.

The only time you're going to catch me doing 26 miles is the first 99.2% of a marathon.