Calories In / Calories Out Paradigm (Page 2)

Lots of good gems in this thread if we'll take the time to mine them.  I believe what Gary wrote is the single most important (and difficult) thing to do when training.  The natural tendancy is to want to replace all (or more than) the number of calories we burned during a workout.  

The sad thing is, exercise does not burn as we'd like to think it does.  I use "100 calories per mile" as my standard burn rate for running (Gary apparently uses 150 - 170) and I use "600 calories and hour" for biking.  I think (and hope) that my numbers are low so I err on the side of caution.  But actually I keep track of my calories out.  I do keep track of my calories in though and try err on the high side when estimating calories.

One think I've noticed and would like suggestions or ideas on is when my body gets in an 'unquenchable' state.  It's like after about a week of running a calorie deficit my body blows a fuse and starts craving something and I don't know what it is.  Nothing I eat will satisfy it.  I suspect my body is missing something....some fatty acid or nutrient or maybe I'm not getting enough fats in my diet or carbs or something.

~Mike

 I know what my body craves at that point...cheeseburgers  On a serious note, I've been told that craving is indicative that you are missing a nutrient, just like you suspected.  For me it is calcium.  I crave cheese after a hard workout.

My mother claims that when I was little I would sit in the flower bed and eat dirt.  She was concerned that it would hurt me, so she asked the doctor.  He said that I was probably missing some nutrient that was in the dirt, and that she should let me do it.    My theory is that I was just a rather stupid child.

Guilty as charged... In my first season 3 years ago I dropped 40 lbs over the season. For me, I believe it was the act of going from no cardio to a whole bunch. I didn't change a whole lot with the way I ate, so the act of all the training alone allowed me to drop the weight.

Now I'm going into my 4th season and I've stayed the same weight since my initial loss (around 188lbs). I'd love to blame it on some mysterious chemical imbalance, but it really comes down to the fact that I eat way more than I burn via training. Especially those days like today where I put in a long session. I'm starving so I feel like it's "justified" for me to pig out. Of course, this eating pattern is kept up during the week, so I end up staying right at the same weight/body size. 

So... for me, it's lack of discipline that keeps me where I'm at. I'd love to drop down to my ideal weight of 175, but that will mean a serious change in what I eat. I have two options- keep doing what I'm doing and stay the same, or make the commitment to get down to where I should be. 

what if I'm craving early- mid 30 y/o  hot red haired women ... does that mean I've neglected something in my "diet"?? 

I was eating the same 10-12 things every week, lifting weights 1 to 1 1/2 hrs a day, walking 4-5 miles a day.  Using this regimen I lost 55-60 lbs. in 7 months.

When I cut out most of the weightlifting, the walking, and large consumption of protein and substituted in S/B/R training, my weight loss slowed way up ... so I cut back on the some of the higher fat foods or un-healthier foods (not that many of them were high fat to begin with), and I also changed a few items ... cut out almost all meat, cut out some items with high sodium ..

... and drum roll please .... my weight loss came to a complete halt.

I went to a Nutritionist, did the 7 day food journal, she checked my training logs, looked over my food journal ... said it looked great and actually told me I was getting enough for my heavy amount of training I doing, esp. not enough carbs.

Told me to eat more carbs and I would have the energy again that I had lost the last couple of months.  But it did not help.

Don't think I've been eating carp (probably not the best diet in the world, but certainly not bad).  I used to have blood-sugar levels way out of control, A1C levels in the 9's and 10's ... 689 Triglycerides, 329 Total Cholesterol ...

I started weights and walking and a better diet... those numbers came WAY down, back within normal ranges .... went into tri-specific training (when I cut out weights and walking and the weight loss stopped ...) ... and like I said, the weight loss stopped .. although my health numbers did and do continue to get better.

Triglycerides checked at end of Nov 08 were 89 .... recommended to be under 130 ...down from 689.

Total Chol. normal range is 125-200 ... used to be 329 and now it is 124.

A1C levels remain constant between 5.4 and 5.8 ... anything under 6.0 is really good ...

Old Regimen Diet:

Bojangles Chicken biscuit and Bo Round potatos with a Diet Coke for breakfast.

Lance crackers for snack and a banana or orange or red grapefruit.

2-3 times a week for lunch would be Wendy's Chicket Filet sandwhich, small chili instead of Fries, diet coke.  Would usually not eat the bun, just the chicken, lettuce and tomato.  Other days would be a microwave cup of soup and one of those microwave dinners - from Dinty Moore I think, comes in that white plastic bowl thingy ... had beef stew or roast and potatos or chicken and veggies in potatos ... you know what I'm probably talking about ...

Another pack of crackers or granola bar and another banana or apple for snack.

Slim Jim (actually Jack Links brand) of beef jerky stick while driving home.

Then go workout.

Dinner was usually fried lean pork chops, or chicken breast, or steak, or turkey slices on wheat bread sandwhich ... a tossed salad ... some veggies.

Lost 55-60 lbs. eating that ..

New Regimen Diet:

Breakfast is those little microwaveable mini sausage or chicken biscuits from Rudy Farms, or a Ham and Cheese croissant ... used to eat one of those Entemmann style cake doughnuts (no glazing on them) ... last few weeks cut that out and instead a Peanut Butter, Blackberry jam on whole wheat bread.

(I know this is fatty, so was the Bojangles ... but you gotta have some .. it helped me stay on the diet and it is best to eat these first thing in the morning ... to have all day to burn them off)

snack would be non-salted rice cake with 2 teaspoons peanut butter and diced up banana on top or blackberry jam (i use blackberry jam cause it is much lower in sugar and carbs than regular jelly and jam)

Lunch is a cup of long grain brown rice and a can of peas or kidney beans or black beans or some kind of beans.  Cut out the high sodium soups, microwave dinners and Wendy's.

afternoon snack another rice cake wtih PB and Jam or banana ... sometimes instead of rice cake it is an orange or banana ... sometimes when I'm really hungry (like after a really hard workout the nght before ...) will also have a bowl of instead oatmeal ... the Weight Control or Low Sugar kind from Quaker Oats ...

Granola bar and banana while driving home (basically my pre workout meal)

Go workout.

Dinner is large tossed salad, non-fat dressing, chicken, can of peas or kidney beans or some kind of beans, and sometimes cup or brown rice.

Last few weeks been cutting out the canned veggies and been microwaving frozen peas and mixed veggies in a effort to cut out more sodium .. both at lunch and dinner.

Bag of popcorn sometimes snack at night or a bowl of Total cereal.

So, that's it ... I've always given myself 1 fat day, usually a Fri or Sat night .. to eat pizza, cheeseburgers, whatever ... even back when I was losing lots of weight.

This proabaly ain't perfect ... but I also wouldn't call it excatly crappy either.

It's bascially what i was eating when losing weight, but really even a little cleaner.

But a lot less protein and more carbs.

It is probably not burning more calories then I'm eating ... but that may be because I've serioulsy under-estimated how many calories I was actually burning when lifting heavy every day ... I think studies have shown weight lifting boosts metabolism and it stays boosted anywhere from 24-48 hrs afterwards as well ... and that lots or protein is needed for the muscle repair and this is what burns a lot of calories the next day or two .. is that repair process going on.

Also, I think being a Type-II diabetic that my body just does not process carbs like it should and a lot of it can't be burned and gets stored as fat ... whereas protein I have no problem with ... so I think by switching from less protein and to more carbs (although the calorie value was about the same) ... my body saw it or processed it as More calories .... and that even though I've tripled the amount of cardio now vs. in the past ... I think I have severaly under-estimated how many calories my intensive weightlifting was burning.

This may be my answer ... who knows ... starting tonight I've gone back to my old workout schedule ... lifted for almost an hour and a half tonight and ate lots of protein ... I'll still keep up with S/B/R .... but dedicate more time to weights until it gets close to race prep time.

If I get good results, I'll update this thread.

It may also be the time I'm eating dinner.

This goes back to that article, it mentions various things ... not just calories in vs. calories out ... and some other items mentioned were what types of foods and at what times of the day ...

Before, I was getting home earlier and able to complete my workouts and be home around 8:30 or 9:00 pm and eat dinner between 9:15 - 9:30 pm ...

Now ... I'm at the YMCA for several hours and don't leave till 10:00 pm and eat dinner around 10:30 pm at night ... sometimes even later ...

So, I too was thinking it should have been as simple as burn more than you eat that day and it shouldn't matter when you eat it ... I figured all during the time I'm working out I'm really going deep into a calorie deficit ... and so if I eat late at night ... the majority is getting used to replace what I used to workout with ... but that I should still be in the negative ...

... but I'm thinking now it doesn't work like that and believe that one of the points Ken's article was talking about may be of more importance then what I realized.

... and what about diet soda's?  I drink lots of them ... butI figure they are Zero calorie so how can they hurt?  I probably don't get enough water each day though.

not to be picky, and its been a while since I had undergrad physics, or maybe I don't understand what you're saying here, but one one of the laws of thermodynamics dictates that this is absolutely impossible ....your body can't just create energy (i.e. those extra 50 cals mentioned above) out of thin air (or ice cream   )     Your body may extract 400 cal out of a substance (it will actually be less due to inefficiency) but it can't add calories to a substance.

You should eat, but don't need a full meal.  I'd break it up so youe ~300 calories about 1-2 hours prior to your workout and 100-250 (depending on your workoutout) afterward  I often do a later evening trainer ride and either don;t eat (but DO hydrate) or have a chocolate milk after  If you worjout is not very intense, no reason to eat much if anything afterwards

Diet soda is not great  Water or tea is better  You should aim for a gallon of water per day to maintain proper hydration, in addition to replacing what water you lose during exercise.  ALso, sugar substitutes can cause you to have sugar cravings, throw off metaboilism, cause cancer, etc.  so limit them.  Diet soda, however, is better than nondiet soda.

SMall changes add up.  If you current drink 10 diet cokes/day, try and cut down to 5-7 over the next 8 weeks and so forth and so on.  Good luck, but don;t overcomplicate your plan.

My one and only addition to this whole debate:

Calories burned for running is primarily a function of distance and weight.  Speed / effort have nothing to do with it (other than to dictate the source of the energy).  Yes, certain other things affect it, but not to the degree the other two do.

A 150 lb. man running 10:00 miles for a marathon burns about as many calories as a 150 lb man running 5:00 miles.

Klowman, have you considered going to a nutritionist?

They could help you sort out your calories in and out and give you some more healthy eating ideas.

I wouldn't suggest eating at 10pm after the gym. Why not eat before you go to the gym?

The more natural the food the better....shop the outer part of the grocery store in the fruit and veggie section and meat department. Stay away from prepared foods.  I stay away from white foods like sugar, white rice and white potatoes and go for sweet potatoes and brown rice

Look at the ingredient of prepared food and see what top 4 are and if they are natural health foods...not artifical stuff.

Sadly, I will say that you are 100% correct- as least how it pertains to me. I know this and it is what I am working on without question. Eating clean is way harder than training for an IM. I would much rather do a 100 mile ride/6 mile run brick than plan and stick to a clean menu for a week.

But I know this is what I must do to feel my best, look my best, and perform my best. Dang it. Why do you have to be right? Grrrrrr.....

But I offer up my dinner plan for tonight.... homemade vegetable beef soup (made with lower sodium broth) and a ham sandwich made with a high fiber english muffin.... (100 calories, 8 g fiber, no HFCS).....

I ate almost a quart ...... yes a quart ........ of B&J Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough the other night (damn BJ's Wholesale Club for selling them that big!).  Close to 2,500 calories ...... and that was AFTER dinner.

And I still am under 180 at 6'-1".

My secret??  Training lots ..... maybe not the volumes of some of the people here, but enough to keep the body processing things quickly.

If I stopped eating crap, I'd probably be even more of a twig.  Hooray for Chipotle and Ben and Jerry's!!

Just another reason for people to hate me.

I admire your discipline to be able to stick to a diet like you do... that said, something that draconian isn't going to necessarily "scale" (read: something that people will stick with) for everyone.  I lost about 50 pounds in 6 months about two years ago, and have kept it off, and it's off for good.

I did the "everything in moderation" approach... meaning I did eat some whole foods, mostly fruits/chicken, but I also ate ham, Lean Cuisine lunches, Chunky Soup, and various things out of bags and boxes.    I also about oct-tupled my water consumption.

One doesn't "need" to eat only whole foods to lose weight.