Treadmill running vs. outside running question (Page 2)

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2009-08-18 3:28 PM
in reply to: #2355902

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Subject: RE: Treadmill running vs. outside running question
McFuzz - 2009-08-18 1:35 PM

Rogillio - 2009-08-17 5:38 PM

scott319 - 2009-08-17 5:02 PM

Bottom line, I think (with proper respect to those that find themselves faster outside, whom I believe wholeheartedly, but cannot explain) the treadmill is faster, because it forces you to waste less energy, thus allowing you to hold a higher pace.

Scott

I agree with your conclusion Scott but from my 'engineering perspective' this is not correct.  The up/down bounce and spring of a treadmill is WASTED energy. 

~Mike

The up/down bounce when you run outside is wasted energy.  The up/down bounce on a treadmill allows the belt to move under you.  The greater your "hang time" on a treadmill, the more the belt can move under you, so you can look to go really fast by prancing/hopping (i.e. bouncing up/down a lot and minimizing the contact time with the belt). 

Morey, have some of your peeps watch your up/down motion when you run outside (as well as left/right). 


What I was referring too in my original comment was that by having the treadmill absorb some of the energy/force, you get less jarring on your legs, which leads to less fatigue.  Hence (for me, at least) one can run faster with the same effort expended.  You engineering types keep forgetting about the human factor!

2009-08-18 3:36 PM
in reply to: #2356519

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Subject: RE: Treadmill running vs. outside running question

gearboy - 2009-08-18 3:28 PM
McFuzz - 2009-08-18 1:35 PM

Rogillio - 2009-08-17 5:38 PM

scott319 - 2009-08-17 5:02 PM

Bottom line, I think (with proper respect to those that find themselves faster outside, whom I believe wholeheartedly, but cannot explain) the treadmill is faster, because it forces you to waste less energy, thus allowing you to hold a higher pace.

Scott

I agree with your conclusion Scott but from my 'engineering perspective' this is not correct.  The up/down bounce and spring of a treadmill is WASTED energy. 

~Mike

The up/down bounce when you run outside is wasted energy.  The up/down bounce on a treadmill allows the belt to move under you.  The greater your "hang time" on a treadmill, the more the belt can move under you, so you can look to go really fast by prancing/hopping (i.e. bouncing up/down a lot and minimizing the contact time with the belt). 

Morey, have some of your peeps watch your up/down motion when you run outside (as well as left/right). 


What I was referring too in my original comment was that by having the treadmill absorb some of the energy/force, you get less jarring on your legs, which leads to less fatigue.  Hence (for me, at least) one can run faster with the same effort expended.  You engineering types keep forgetting about the human factor!

All this stuff is awesome.  And true, so why am I one of the only peeps that's faster on a T-mill than outside?  The folks that are slower must practically be asleep their RPE is so low.

2009-08-18 4:31 PM
in reply to: #2356298

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Subject: RE: Treadmill running vs. outside running question

ejshowers - 2009-08-18 2:24 PM Actually, both statements are correct I think.  Semantics I think.  It depends on what "bounce" you are talking about. 

Treadmill bounce

The padding and built-in track bounce of a treadmill leads to wasted energy absorbed by the treadmill on each footfall.   (Mike's statement I believe).  The harder asphalt or cement surface outside is way more efficient ala running on grass versus pavement.  I run into this on treadmills at our gym as one type of treamill (Walkway brand) has much more of a padded tread than the other (Nordic Trac).  Running at the same incline and pace on the softer treadmill uses much more energy than the firmer one.  I get out of breath with a faster HR at a slower pace on the softer one.

Runner bounce

If you are talking about the runner being airborne (stride bounce) on a treadmill versus outside, then that would equate to extra distance covered as the treadmill spins underneath the airborne runner.  (McFuzz statement)

Everyone is correct - yeah!  Does that make sense?

 

I think you captured it.  I was referring to the spring compression/decompression when you foot hits the TM.  This is wasted energy as it does nothing to move the belt tangentally to your foot.

As far as 'hang time'....I can't really speak to that.  I'm not sure I am EVER not in contact with the running surface with at least one foot.  Maybe I am for just an instant...but I don't think so.  But I'm not sure this makes a difference...unless the spring cuased you to be airborne for a longer amount of time than the road (and the bounce of your running shoe).

I have found that if you stand on the rails adjacent to the belt while the belt is still moving, and then you hop off...you can go get a drink of water, talk to some friends in the gym, come back later on, hop back on and you will have continued to log distance w/o the associated fatigue!

~Mike

2009-08-18 4:44 PM
in reply to: #2353782

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Subject: RE: Treadmill running vs. outside running question
Funny!

Actually the research on this topic is peretty interesting.  Turns out you use slightly different muscles on a treadmill vs. outside - more hip flexor, less hamstring.  On a TM you end up striding more "up" than "out".  Running outside most of your energy is spent propelling you forward where on a TM it is spent defying gravity (LOL).   The angle of your shinbone to the ground actually changes on a TM as your body is mainly trying to maintain balance as your foot is pulled backward (from the friction of the TM surface moving back) and your body reacts by lifting your leg upward, not so much froward.

No wind resisitance and less joint fatigue (more giving surface) seem to be the other major factors, along with the more touchy-feely "human" factors like boredom/focus, claustrophobia or distraction (watch TV, etc).  Those can go either way of course, depending on the individual.
2009-08-18 6:03 PM
in reply to: #2355388

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Subject: RE: Treadmill running vs. outside running question
runnergirl - 2009-08-18 9:42 AM

jldicarlo - 2009-08-17 3:42 PM Can't help ya.  I run faster outside than on a treadmill.


I'm the same way too. 


yep!!
2009-08-19 12:23 AM
in reply to: #2353782

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Subject: RE: Treadmill running vs. outside running question
If it helps, I'm consistently faster on the TM. *shrug* But I also tend to cheat on the TM and only set it to a 1-2% grade. I don't change that unless I'm specifically doing a hill workout. Outside, I'm ALWAYS going either up or down, even slightly. My "flat" run has a 200' elevation gain over 2ish miles - not a lot, but enough to slow my pace.

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