Help me decide between early season HIMs: Michigan or Little Smokies

No.

I cannot say for sure because I have not done an IM distance but I have been in Lake Erie a few times.  I did a tri in Lake Erie last summer and it was over 90 degrees outside and the lake was as flat as a pancake.  But on any other day it could be very choppy and wavy.  The lake is relatively shallow compared to other Great Lakes so it doesn't take too much wind, etc to start churning up waves.  So I say go with the HFP race.  Maybe you could put in some OWS training in Lake Erie an other day.  Ok that's my 2 cents.

OK, good to know which one you are favoring!

It's a good point that I can go swim in Lake Erie and do a run of the bike course some other time during the summer.
David, when does spring quarter end? Because the Little Smokies is May 23.

Edited by ahohl 2010-01-27 4:04 PM

do the smokies.

RFR has some rough roads. (see rattle your teeth out in a few spots).

Newbz - So if I do Smokies (I'm leaning toward it) I have two choices.

Ride it on my tri bike, which fits me exactly (48cm, 650 wheels) and is set up perfectly and is carbon everything and has a set of Zipp wheels. (Felt B2) It has Shimano Ultegra, but because the cables run internally, I frequently have a problem shifting into the big chain ring, and countless bike mechanics have said it will never be great because of the cable routing.

OR I can take my road bike, which is metal and heavier (no carbon) and is too big (52 or 54 and 700 wheels), and I'm not really aero on it, and the reach is way too long, BUT it has much better gearing for hills ("granny gear") and also shifts nicer, without hesitation and smoothly. (Campy components).

I don't get a lot of opportunity to practice on hills, since I live in Columbus.
Your thoughts?

you 100% will prob not need your big ring. the few downhills you are going to want to coast most of.

whats the gearing on the rear wheel for the road and tri bike look like?


If the road bike fit, i would say use that, but i would look at maybe adding a bigger cassette on the rear (i think about 6$).

on the half course there are two big hills. the rest of the hlls are like the ones on the out and back at toyota, just rolling. the two big ones are nasty (but you will also be a LOT more rested than when i have seen them at the end of TTT).

FWIW the shifting issue with the felt is a combination of that crankset and the felt frame, not internal cables in general.

girlfriend that the same bike, we took it to 3 diff shops, no one could get it right, i finally got it most of the way better but its still a pain i the .
all of my bikes/all of the others she has had all shift great with internal cables.

entry fee - saved $55+ gas saved (car not RV, not factoring wear) $10+ camp sit (1 night only) $2 + time lost 1.5 hours x double your hourly wage= ??? a big number

are the advantages worth that much?

the course diff alone would be enough to make the choice for me, the RFR course makes toyota look exciting.

just read my posts, FWIW i am not knocking todds race, it was my first HIM (3rd tri) and it was very well run. just nothing special about it.

Score one for the Felt


Not sure. I will have to look. But I have a third chain ring on the road bike. So I have basically an extra set of small gears. On the Felt I know I have 10 gears back there, but I'm not sure what they are. Plus you have to factor in the 650 wheels.
Sounds like score one for the road bike on gearing?


I think I read that they are one or two mile long hills? I have never really experienced anything like that. I know I can simulate it on the trainer, but it sounds really hard.


Thanks for the info. Is it because of the cross-chaining? Like the angle of the chain? Because it seems like a really tough angle - I can understand why the teeth aren't picking it up. I frequently have to shift to a pretty small cog to decrease the chain angle enough, and then I can get it in.  I don't want to adjust the derailleur to give it much more play, because I have thrown the chain off the outside in a race before and don't really want a repeat of that. But doing all the shifting in the back to get the front to work take a lot of time, by which point I'm already halfway down whatever hill I was trying to take advantage of, you know?

Well, thanks for letting me know. At least I will stop spending money on bike mechanics.

part of the issue is due to the way felt routed the cables on that frame (i think its since been changed). the other is that cranksets rings are just not the smoothest out there. some shift better than others, drop chains more/less, etc.

if you are having trouble even getting it that far over its more than likely either poorly tuned or simply the felt frame and not the chainring.

If you've seen more than one mech i would vote for the frame and not the parts.


Bike wise, can you comfortably ride the road bike? (being aero on this course is going to be the least of your concerns), handling, comfort, ease of shifting will be more important for you.

as far as training goes, how much of an issue is it for you to get out to newark, or granville to ride? from either of those locations i can give you some nice hilly routes (newark has bigger hills but a bit more of a drive). granville is hilly the whole time but shorter hills.

the TTT has one longer 1+ mi climb, its nasty and steep in a few spots but i;ve never seen anyone walk it like they do on thompson). and then there is one at the end of the loop, its a big hill, steep in the middle, not too bad on the first half (and thats at the end of the weekend once you've already seen it in both olympic races). you'll hit each hill twice (two loop course).

on a random side note, its pretty funny racing there when the smokies is its own race. the people doing hte little smokies half are there 2 hours before the race, ready to go. the people doing TTT are limping in, looking shell shocked, no warmup, and some of them are still arriving as the first people are going into the water.

Oh yeah. I was the only bike I rode for training and racing for 8 or 9 years. I'm very comfortable on it. Just way slower.
I mostly use it for commuting, so I have added a bit of weight to it (luggage rack, lights) that I can take back off. It's just sort of awkward. It has aero bars, but it's a much less aggressive position than I have on the Felt. Also I have the Kevlar tires since I commute and encounter a lot of debris in the road. I don't want to spring for lighter tires for one race, so I guess I will just suck it up and count it toward my training.




I think I could do it a couple times. It is tough leaving the kids on a weekend. They don't get to see me much during the week because of work, so I try to get my workouts in really early on weekends, but it doesn't get light that early. I also like to leave from home to minimize the time I'm away.

What about "Relentless Hills" down in the Hocking Hills? Is that comparable or useful? David has done that many times. I'll be down that way in March and could do it once if it's not too cold.  Granville and Newark are closer than they used to be, now that we live east on 161 near Westerville. I'd certainly welcome any suggestions on routes.

 

That's funny! I'll have to look out for that. I guess some day I may want to do TTT, so I'll pay attention.

FWIW the last time little smokies was a half the guy that won did it on a road bike with no aerobars. you'll be going up or down about 2/3 of this race and the drops (or clip ons) are more than enough.

on the tire front i would not worry about what is on there.


Yeah the hocking hills area is a lot like granville, same type of thing. you'll only find a few climbs in this part of the state (or rather where you are) that is anything like the ones in southern ohio, just nothing that big. any hills you can do will help, and on race day the two bigger ones just take at a speed you can manage (for most of us thats simply getting up them).

i'll see what i can find route wise. there are some good ones if you can leave from johnstown (for longer rides, 60+ range) or if you have a weekend or two free leaving from granville i have a lot of 30-50mi hilly rides. anything in the hocking hills area is good too.

another option since you are closer, is once a week go over to hoover dam and go down to the bottom (west side) and do repeats up that hill. its a fun one to go up).

also trainer wise, you can get a lot of hill work in there. work on seated climbing as much as you can.

Thanks for all the advice!



On Sunbury Road? I live right by there. No problem.
I am wondering if I have the right spot, though. I have not noticed that as being much of a hill.  How about the hill going up Alum Creek's dam? I have gotten pretty good at that one, but I think it's only about a half mile long.


I have heard people talking about propping up the front wheel. Does that actually do anything? I don't really get that, since you are not pulling your weight up anything. I usually just shift up or increase the resistance on the trainer, although I've never found my hardest gear to be so "easy" that I need to adjust the resistance on the trainer.... I guess I have some work to do.  I do spin class, too, and we do a lot of "climbing" in there.

Well, I just downloaded a USGS topographical map to overlay on Google Earth (free) and found that there may be some opportunities closer to home.
Seems that Little Turtle is situated on the side of a hill, and provides a 2 mile loop that contains some climbing. There's also Blendon Woods which has a memorable hill on the road in from 161. And Sharon Woods has a couple good climbs. I can get to all of those from home, plus the Hoover hill and the Alum Creek hill. So maybe if I am resourceful and do repeats, I'll be able to prepare adequately after all.

But then I have memories of being in WV and trying to go for a ride and I stopped several times thinking I *MUST* have a flat because there's no WAY the bike could feel that heavy. It was terrible. Maybe I'm in better shape since then.

if you go into that first parking lot there is another down at the base of the dam, a bit shorter but steeper than the alum one, maybe 400m .

on the trainer dont worry about propping up, just get used to harder seated riding for extended period

one climbing set i like t odo (if i ever get back on a trainer) is a pyramid. for the sake of simplicity, lets say you have a 10spd bike, and everything is in minutes.
start in the easiest cassette. 10 min in that, 9 in the next, 8 next and so forth (you can do whatever you want with the times, but the goal is as it gets harder you do less time.

sort of like going up a hill that gets steeper and steeper. the last gear should having you down in the 60rpm to70rpm range.

this workout hurts, a lot.

shorter pyramids work, but if you want to get ready for more climbing the longer is better.

also, while its not 100% the same, if you can mentally handle it, if you're a strong rider on flat ground it will carry over. intervals of v02max to 20 min power range will help a lot as well.

Thanks. I did a similar set to that this week. Easiest gear to hard and back to easy, 1 minute per gear, but with two 5 minute TT in the hardest gear.  I like yours, too.

I don't have a power meter, but I do need work on sustaining a high HR on the bike. I seem to be always riding at about 140 bmp or less. I have an interval set that is all HR based, though, where I have to stay in a certain zone for certain time. That one definitely gets me sweating. For some reason I have a hard time working as hard on the bike as I do on the run. Maybe my leg strength just is lagging way behind my cardio fitness or something. I am trying to work on that via Plyometrics and Boot Camp this winter. As a female with a runner's build, I just don't have the kind of raw hamstring power that someone like my husband has.

If you have ever done an outdoor TT, or on the trainer, 20min power (you can find the same thing through HR, or RPE), is basically the max effort you can hold for 20 min, something at your speed like an 8 mi TT (give or take).

At similar effort levels your HR on the bike is going to be approx 10beats lower than the run (its a bit diff for everyone but that seems to be a pretty standard diff).

basically if you need to be training for hills without hte hills, a few more intervals like cyclists would be doing (ie shorter harder, vs the long steady) will help.

while you wont have the leg strength, assuming you do the training you'll be well suited to a hilly course because of your smaller size. just being the 10pounds lighter i am now vs when i started makes a huge diff on bigger hills and long climbs.