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 2010-01-29 1:40 PM in reply to: #2642266 |
Regular  165  |  Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like meIm glad im not the only one who thinks every run is an RPE of 10. I started running 6 months ago, and am experiencing the one speed thing. Either I'm running or not. currently I'm doing 9:15 - 10:15/mile. I've tried to do an occasional mile at 8:15 in the middle of a set, but then I'm cooked for the rest of the run. I feel like I'm running, but look like I'm jogging. Iguess Ineed more mileage. |
| 2010-01-29 1:43 PM in reply to: #2642978 |
Runner | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me hornjs - 2010-01-29 2:40 PM Im glad im not the only one who thinks every run is an RPE of 10. I started running 6 months ago, and am experiencing the one speed thing. Either I'm running or not. currently I'm doing 9:15 - 10:15/mile. I've tried to do an occasional mile at 8:15 in the middle of a set, but then I'm cooked for the rest of the run. I feel like I'm running, but look like I'm jogging. Iguess Ineed more mileage. Yes, along with most of that mileage at an RPE lower than 10. Run EASY. |
| 2010-01-29 1:43 PM in reply to: #2642346 |
Master 2210  Columbus, OhioCoaching member | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me vball03umd - 2010-01-29 11:08 AM I'm curious about this. Running "fast" should feel the same for all runners, no matter if you consider yourself fast or slow. You're running fast if you are huffing and puffing. Whether that's a 6:30 pace for someone, or a 11:00 pace for another. Same with running slower. Easy, conversational pace. It feels the same. Recovery runs, guilty easy, feel like plodding for everyone! Very true, BUT... Many training plans do not use words like "easy" "conversational" or "as hard as you can." They tell you to run at XX% of your race pace. Well, if my last race was done at the same speed I have always run, that is not going to ever cause me to train any faster. If I train at 10:00/miles, and I race at 10:00/miles, it does me no good to train using a plan that has most or all of the workouts prescribed at 75% of race pace, or 90% of race pace. I'll never get any faster! I would ALWAYS train at or below my "normal" speed. Not all of us experience that sensation when a race begins that makes us go faster than we thought possible. I always heard, "Don't go out too fast," and "pace yourself." So my race pace stayed at 10:00. My training was too easy, because a lot of the scheduled runs were to be completed at race pace or slower. -OR- I was calculating race pace based off a 5K or 10K at the end of a triathlon, instead of a stand-alone 5K or 10K. In either scenario, I could carefully follow the plan and calculate the paces and run at the correct pace and not get faster. |
| 2010-01-29 1:46 PM in reply to: #2642945 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me tcovert i agree with this post a lot. from time to time its good to see what that pace is (for me its races and thats it). outside of races i have not seen 5k pace really in about 2 months now. 10k i see once a week or so. this post and another makes me almost want to try a mile all out just to see what i could do now (have not run one in about 3 years), part of me is a bit scared though...... |
| 2010-01-29 1:47 PM in reply to: #2642976 |
Runner | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me newbz - 2010-01-29 2:40 PM Scout7 - 2010-01-29 12:39 PM i've been listening to you too much, i quoted that to someone else yesterday In summary; Run lots. Mostly easy. Sometimes hard. I need to trademark that or something.... |
| 2010-01-29 1:48 PM in reply to: #2642993 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me ahohl - 2010-01-29 12:43 PM vball03umd - 2010-01-29 11:08 AM I'm curious about this. Running "fast" should feel the same for all runners, no matter if you consider yourself fast or slow. You're running fast if you are huffing and puffing. Whether that's a 6:30 pace for someone, or a 11:00 pace for another. Same with running slower. Easy, conversational pace. It feels the same. Recovery runs, guilty easy, feel like plodding for everyone! Very true, BUT... Many training plans do not use words like "easy" "conversational" or "as hard as you can." They tell you to run at XX% of your race pace. Well, if my last race was done at the same speed I have always run, that is not going to ever cause me to train any faster. If I train at 10:00/miles, and I race at 10:00/miles, it does me no good to train using a plan that has most or all of the workouts prescribed at 75% of race pace, or 90% of race pace. I'll never get any faster! I would ALWAYS train at or below my "normal" speed. Not all of us experience that sensation when a race begins that makes us go faster than we thought possible. I always heard, "Don't go out too fast," and "pace yourself." So my race pace stayed at 10:00. My training was too easy, because a lot of the scheduled runs were to be completed at race pace or slower. -OR- I was calculating race pace based off a 5K or 10K at the end of a triathlon, instead of a stand-alone 5K or 10K. In either scenario, I could carefully follow the plan and calculate the paces and run at the correct pace and not get faster. a very very good example of why effort is a great pacing tool. ok i have made 46 posts today, i need to get off the computer for a bit (can you tell i am done for the day with work?!?!?) |
| 2010-01-29 2:06 PM in reply to: #2642653 |
Champion 6503  NOVA - Ironic for an Endurance Athlete | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me tcovert - 2010-01-29 11:49 AM vball03umd - 2010-01-29 8:08 AM mkarr0110 - 2010-01-29 10:52 AM I totally agree i have no concept of fast pace for a distance vs a slow pace. I either go my pace (about 11:30 a mile in the 10s if im feeling good) or i try to go slower which seems like plodding almost at times (12-13 mins a mile). I'm curious about this. Running "fast" should feel the same for all runners, no matter if you consider yourself fast or slow. You're running fast if you are huffing and puffing. Whether that's a 6:30 pace for someone, or a 11:00 pace for another. Same with running slower. Easy, conversational pace. It feels the same. Recovery runs, guilty easy, feel like plodding for everyone! My husband, who considers himself a slower runner, would tell me that's not possible for him to run at an easy effort and if he ran any slower, he would be walking. I think that's bull and I started running with him to help him understand that's possible for him to slow it down. His fast pace, where he is huffing and puffing, is about a 10:00 min/mi. When we run together, I keep the pace conversational for him and we run about an 11ish min/mile. Try to pay attention to effort, not pace, and you can vary your run workouts. In principle, you're right. In practice, the key word above is "should." I went through this with my wife recently--she's an inexperienced runner with a lot of potential (IMO, anyhow). Like a lot of novice runners, she thought she was pushing up against a threshold when she actually was nowhere near it. A couple months ago she had a breakthrough...now she understands better what the real effort level in a tempo run actually is and now she's better able to vary the intent of individual workouts. For people who have never been pushed through training for running competition, I've seen a pretty frequent lack of understanding of just how much a hard speed workout actually hurts and also of how much more they actually have in reserve that they are backing off from...setting their "fast" speed at persistent stitch in the side, rather than "OMG, I'm gonna puke." Put another way, for a novice runner without sufficient context, what they think is an RPE of "10" might only seem like an "8" to a more experienced racer. RPE (which I train by, fwiw) is talked about as if it's an objective scale where values feel the same to everyone, but of course it is really subjective. The other poster who talked about a conversational pace put it well, I thought...the issue though is usually on the fast end of the scale, rather than the easy end. I am going to respectfully disagree with your last sentence. Every (and yes I mean every) track workout I had ended with some level of injury. Intense work w/o a great base is a risky path to take. Could it lead to faster running? Sure! Could it cause injury and cost precious WEEKS of training? Oh yeah! Pushing the fast end of workouts is a study in risk management. Most people understand and follow the ol' 10% rule for increasing volume. I am afraid that many do not understand the risks with adding speed workouts, especially to the "OMG, I'm gonna puke level". I would rather err on the side of safety, and save risking injuries for my races. |
| 2010-01-29 2:11 PM in reply to: #2642973 |
Extreme Veteran 574 Southwestern Ontario | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me Scout7 - 2010-01-29 2:39 PM In summary; Run lots. Mostly easy. Sometimes hard. Nice summary. Two pages of wisdom and experience right there. |
| 2010-01-29 2:35 PM in reply to: #2643093 |
Runner | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me dermoski - 2010-01-29 3:11 PM Scout7 - 2010-01-29 2:39 PM Nice summary. Two pages of wisdom and experience right there.In summary; Run lots. Mostly easy. Sometimes hard. Two pages, and about 17 years. Edited by Scout7 2010-01-29 2:36 PM |
| 2010-01-29 2:41 PM in reply to: #2643167 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me now out of everyone that agrees with you, how many or how does it take them to put your trademark line into effect? for me it took about 4 years...... great part is, i the 4 months i have been running like that i have seem almost as much time gains (% wise) as i did in the 4 yearss before that....... |
| 2010-01-29 2:46 PM in reply to: #2643167 |
Expert 1690 | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me Scout7 - 2010-01-29 3:35 PM dermoski - 2010-01-29 3:11 PM Scout7 - 2010-01-29 2:39 PM Nice summary. Two pages of wisdom and experience right there.In summary; Run lots. Mostly easy. Sometimes hard. Two pages, and about 17 years. teach me!!! we're not worthy, we're not worthy!! we're scum we suck!!! |
| 2010-01-29 2:47 PM in reply to: #2642266 |
Pro 5169 Burbs | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me Ugh, I hate agreeing with Scout  , but:I started distance running about 5 years ago. I don't do any speedwork, except for the VERY occassional fartlek. I just RUN. Often. My first marathon> 4:45 My fourth marathon, 3 years later, just RUNNING MORE> 3:50 The more you run the faster you'll get. Don't complicated it. Just run. and run more. |
| 2010-01-29 2:58 PM in reply to: #2643206 |
Runner | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me mkarr0110 - 2010-01-29 3:46 PM Scout7 - 2010-01-29 3:35 PM dermoski - 2010-01-29 3:11 PM Scout7 - 2010-01-29 2:39 PM Nice summary. Two pages of wisdom and experience right there.In summary; Run lots. Mostly easy. Sometimes hard. Two pages, and about 17 years. teach me!!! we're not worthy, we're not worthy!! we're scum we suck!!! Sorry, I realized after that came across as somewhat flip. I made that statement more to show that while the concept of training is pretty simple, and can easily be summed up in a few words, the proper application of it takes years. To sort of converge this with newbz's question about how long it takes someone to fully understand the idea, I'd say that it takes more time than people think. First, you have to learn what easy is, and what hard is. Then you have to learn what Mostly means, and what Sometimes means, then what Lots means. I thought I ran a lot. Then I realized I wasn't. I thought I knew what easy was, until I discovered I could run easier. This goes along with people stating that they don't really know what "hard" means, or what "easy" feels like. That's why it's so hard to give specific advice sometimes. All I can say is that it takes time, lots of practice, and patience. ohhhhhmmmmmmm.......... |
| 2010-01-29 2:59 PM in reply to: #2643209 |
Runner | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me trishie - 2010-01-29 3:47 PM Ugh, I hate agreeing with Scout Don't worry, after about 5 showers that feeling washes away. Or so I'm told. And your improvement is impressive, either way. An hour in a few years is darn good. |
| 2010-01-29 3:03 PM in reply to: #2642266 |
Expert 1104 Canada | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me Lots of wisdom in this thread...Cool! |
| 2010-01-29 3:15 PM in reply to: #2642993 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me ahohl - 2010-01-29 3:43 PM Very true, BUT... Many training plans do not use words like "easy" "conversational" or "as hard as you can." They tell you to run at XX% of your race pace. Well, if my last race was done at the same speed I have always run, that is not going to ever cause me to train any faster. If I train at 10:00/miles, and I race at 10:00/miles, it does me no good to train using a plan that has most or all of the workouts prescribed at 75% of race pace, or 90% of race pace. I'll never get any faster! I would ALWAYS train at or below my "normal" speed. I believe very strongly in the words of Jack Daniels when it comes to training paces, "If you want to train faster, race faster!" A well designed training program will have you running mostly easy, occasionally a little harder and rarely faster than your 5k or even 10k pace. Not all of us experience that sensation when a race begins that makes us go faster than we thought possible. I always heard, "Don't go out too fast," and "pace yourself." So my race pace stayed at 10:00. If you are not racing faster than you are training, then you are either racing too slow or training too fast. Depending on which, you either need to slow down in training or push harder in racing. My training was too easy, because a lot of the scheduled runs were to be completed at race pace or slower. -OR- I was calculating race pace based off a 5K or 10K at the end of a triathlon, instead of a stand-alone 5K or 10K. In either scenario, I could carefully follow the plan and calculate the paces and run at the correct pace and not get faster. If you have nothing but a triathlon run leg to set your training paces, then I would suggest you take the pace and put in an equivalent time for the next distance; for example: * sprint 5k of 25:00, enter a 10k time in a pace calculator of 50:00 * HIM 21.1k of 2:00, enter a marathon time in a pace calculator of 4:00 This assumes that you were racing these close to your potential but should give a better result than putting in the triathlon run leg directly. Shane |
| 2010-01-29 3:33 PM in reply to: #2642266 |
Master 2210 Columbus, OhioCoaching member | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me Thanks Shane! I recently did a standalone 5K (hadn't done one in years, with the exception of these really snowy off-road ones) and finished in 24:20, which is astounding for me. So now I can set that as my 5K race pace instead of what I would have plugged in there in the past, which was much slower. Or I could go by RPE as suggested by others. I agree I don't push hard enough in races. I think a lot of men more than women (though not as a rule, of course) will go out really hard in a race because they don't want to get passed or whatever, and that is how they have race times that are much faster than most of their training. I am pretty competitive in general (personality-wise), but maybe because I'm female and I just assume many of the men will pass me, I don't have that instinct in races to go faster than I'm comfortable going. I think in a lot of triathlon publications and probably this site, there is a good deal of advice given ("Don't go out too hard," etc.) with the assumption that we all are racing with a "chase" or "kill" instinct in a race. That has not really been the case with me, even though I do check people's legs and try to catch the folks in my AG. I think I have overdone the caution in the past and will try to race harder at distances I've done before. I have read marathon training advice saying not to worry about running longer than 20 miles, because your 20 mile run will likely take the same amount of time as your full marathon due to the difference in pace. This is one example of something that might be true for a faster person, but for someone who can't run faster than 10:00/miles, this is definitely not going to be true because there just isn't that great of a differential between top speed and easy speed. Probably a topic for another thread, though. I know a lot has been written about the long run before the marathon. |
| 2010-01-29 3:50 PM in reply to: #2643314 |
Champion 10018 , Minnesota Bronze member | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me Alice - I suspect that you will post a thread in time that said you had another revelation: training slower will, in the end, acheive faster results. I am only about 2 revelations beyond where you are today Case in point: In mid 2008 I began a training plan for a half marathon in November. I followed the plan fairly religiously, better than usual. I did my long runs (a tad faster than what Mcmillan told me to do, but "easy") and did the speed work prescribed by Hal Higdon. As an less experienced runner, that consisted mainly of tempo runs but an occasional speed session. Until then my races usually were in the 10 m/m range and it was those results that I based my training on. In November I ran a 2:06:14 half marathon! That's a 9:38 m/m pace! I was stunned, but it was exactly what I had trained for. A series of things went perfectly that day as well, but I can assure you I was NOT training at the 9:38 pace other than tempo runs. Now, when I use the calculators, I use that new race info. And things continue to fall into place. Good luck to all new runners who feel slow. I comletely understand. I struggle to run on the treadmill and see folks running effortlessly at paces I simply cannot do for more than a few seconds. It's still amazing to me. But I suppose there are slower runners envying me too. p.s. you can definitely "run" at an 11-12 pace. Walking doesn't start until 14 or so. Try it on a treadmill. Unless you have very long legs, of course |
I assure you, it all works out.| 2010-01-29 3:52 PM in reply to: #2643314 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me alice, this last bit where you are talking about pacing races, brings up an interesting point. A lot of people end up coming short in races (compared to their training) because they dont race enough (or do workouts like that if they are not racing a lot) to know what it does and should feel like. as an example, say your easy pace is 8 min miles, and you have raced 2 5ks. take that same fitness, lets go a year down the road, and have you race 6 more over that time. on that sme fitness you are going to run faster simply due to knowing how to *race* that distance. Outside of the age diff, i think this is why you see so many high shcool kids running much faster 5ks on the mileage they put in compared to some older people. A- most of them dont have the what if i fail thought, which lets you forget about barriers (btoh mental and physical), and B- they get a LOt more practice racing than most of us do. something to consider trying either in a 5k or if you have a friend around your speed, whatever. Go out a bit harder than you think yo ushould, or pick it up before hte middle of the middle of the race. Run a bit harder than you should. One of two things is going to happen. either you're going to blow up, or you are going to have a fantastic race. Either way you'll have learned something about yourself, where some of your pphysical/mental limits are. another way to go about this is every few weeks, find a track, and go do a 1mile TT. every few weeks try and beat it. In rowing we did a workout or 2k test (standard racing distance in crew), every two weeks or so. these were by far the most painful things i have ever done in my life. But they teach you how to push yourself, and often the ones that went poorly, where you blew up, crashed and burned, taught you more than the great ones. If you want to race well, finding that fine line between crashing and thinking you are going to die is what its all about. and it takes a few failures to figure this out, and to realize the worst that is goign to happen if you'll slow down a bit on the tail end. But you will also learn that past a certain point, it really cant hurt anymore, so you might as well try pushing a bit harder. |
| 2010-01-29 3:58 PM in reply to: #2643357 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me bikergrrrrl, i know the feeling, i was in CO for a lot of the summer and saw some of the guys from CU running, and a few elite marathoners. their easy pace makes me sick (watched some of these guys do 20 mi training runs at 6-6:20 miles. and make it look easy. its all relative. |
| 2010-01-29 4:32 PM in reply to: #2642266 |
Extreme Veteran 465 Atlanta, GA | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me It is going to sound stupid, but my big revelation was, "Wow, this is supposed to be hard!". You see a lot of these very fast runners who are so smooth that they really don't look like they are putting forth a ton of effort. That discouraged me b/c I was running racing to what I thought was the effort that these guys were putting out. Which was really slow for me. After running more and more. You start to get a feel what your body can do and I would be willing to bet that 9 times out of 10, people are underestimating what pace you can actually hold. So finally, I seem to be getting to the point in my races where I am spent at the end where it used to be I had pretty good amounts of energy left. Once you get through that mental block of thinking that you can go any faster, I think that is where you start to see big improvements. |
| 2010-01-29 6:52 PM in reply to: #2642266 |
Expert 1019 Muncie, IN | Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me WOW! Thanks. I have scratched my head on that too since I started running. "This IS my race pace" is what always went thru my head. It is also my long run pace, my 5K pace, my....everything pace. Thanks - I'm not alone! |
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