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2010-02-04 2:46 PM
in reply to: #2654911

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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging

If you go to your local gym...about what percentage of the people there actually work out?  I would guess around 80%.  The other 20% go through the motions.  They may walk on the treadmill, or jump on the bike and spin 40 rpms at level 1.  Some don't even break a sweat. 

The article mentioned nothing about the controls used to make sure each participant was actually working out for 30 minutes, 5 times per week.  If no conrols were used...such as making sure that each participant held their HR at 70% of max for 30 minutes, then the whole article is not about genetics affecting the ability to increase your aerobic capacity.  It has more to do with what percentage of people actually work out when spending time in the gym.



2010-02-04 2:51 PM
in reply to: #2655509

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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
Hey all,
So, I looked up the abstract, which doesn't have all the details. Here is the link.
Basically the study was trying to find and detail whether or not there were genetic markers for how much the V02 max would be affected by exercise.
I didn't read the study, but the article says NOTHING about statistical significance of the 20% who didn't benefit. In addition, since actual study was looking for ways to predict the differences in gains in V02max, they may have purposely used a group that had those markers.

I personally believe that using genetics to help find people who are at higher risk can be helpful. I can only hope that it isn't used to discriminate, a la gattaca. The ability to make sure that a drug won't cause adverse side effects due to genetics is worhtwhile. So is the awareness that you should be checked more often for heart disease, or any other number of risks.
Obviously though, genetics is rarely the ONLY cause of a problem(although in some cases, it is).
2010-02-04 4:51 PM
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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
hamiltks10 - 2010-02-04 12:46 PM

"...said that the discovery would pave the way for more personalised treatments, with patients able to take DNA tests to find out the most effective way of keeping their own hearts healthy.

It could also be used to root out would-be recruits to the Armed Forces who will never be able to reach the required fitness standards. "

That is alarming.  Before you know it, they'll want to give DNA tests before allowing you to hold certain jobs or to be admitted to certain schools...you know, to make sure you'd be able to "reach the required standards".



Nothing wrong with that.  Certain jobs have certain qualification standards for a reason.  If it can be shown outright that someone is simply not physically/mentally qualified for a job then it takes a lot of the guessing game out of it ..... and future heartache/headache when someone can't perform to the minimum job standards.

The military already does that with PT tests and ASVAB scores.
2010-02-04 5:18 PM
in reply to: #2655794

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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
Daremo - 2010-02-04 12:51 PM
hamiltks10 - 2010-02-04 12:46 PM

"...said that the discovery would pave the way for more personalised treatments, with patients able to take DNA tests to find out the most effective way of keeping their own hearts healthy.

It could also be used to root out would-be recruits to the Armed Forces who will never be able to reach the required fitness standards. "

That is alarming.  Before you know it, they'll want to give DNA tests before allowing you to hold certain jobs or to be admitted to certain schools...you know, to make sure you'd be able to "reach the required standards".



Nothing wrong with that.  Certain jobs have certain qualification standards for a reason.  If it can be shown outright that someone is simply not physically/mentally qualified for a job then it takes a lot of the guessing game out of it ..... and future heartache/headache when someone can't perform to the minimum job standards.

The military already does that with PT tests and ASVAB scores.


I agree somewhat.

Just keep in mind that PT tests and ASVAB scores rate your current level of fitness and mental capacity...not what your "potential" is.  If Lance Armstrong decided he was going to be a couch potato and balloon to 300 pounds, I suppose his DNA test would still show that he would be the perfect fit for a Tour de France 7 time champion.  DNA isn't everything.
2010-02-04 5:38 PM
in reply to: #2654799

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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
I read the article. It doesn't really seem to suggest what the news article says that it does, ie. the headline of "Millions of people waste their time by jogging"...It just 1) found the 20% of people in the study who gained less than a 5% increase in aerobic capacity after aerobic training--nothing about the 80%, 2)the data of the 20% is somehow correlated with specific single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNP's) showing that certain people have a decreased ability to increased aerobic capacity compared to other people without these specific SNP's. So all I can figure that it means is that some people don't have the same ability as other people to gain aerobic fitness--its the same as why can't some people gain as much muscle mass as other people.

There are some problems with the study design itself including inconsistancies with tests done on the groups, unpublished data and low participant numbers (less than 20 for the 2 groups--1 control and 1 experimental).

I think the article itself is a tad skewed compared to the conclusions of the paper. I think what the authors are trying to get across is that some people don't have the "genetic" capacity to raise their VO2 max that they will have to resort to other forms of treatment to lower other risk factors they have via diet and taking medication. Aerobic capacity is the number one predictor of morbidity and mortality in heart disease over anything else (hypertension, diabetes, etc).

This is just my personal analysis after reading the paper.



Edited by mndymond 2010-02-04 5:54 PM
2010-02-04 5:46 PM
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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
tri808 - 2010-02-04 6:18 PM
Daremo - 2010-02-04 12:51 PM
hamiltks10 - 2010-02-04 12:46 PM

"...said that the discovery would pave the way for more personalised treatments, with patients able to take DNA tests to find out the most effective way of keeping their own hearts healthy.

It could also be used to root out would-be recruits to the Armed Forces who will never be able to reach the required fitness standards. "

That is alarming.  Before you know it, they'll want to give DNA tests before allowing you to hold certain jobs or to be admitted to certain schools...you know, to make sure you'd be able to "reach the required standards".



Nothing wrong with that.  Certain jobs have certain qualification standards for a reason.  If it can be shown outright that someone is simply not physically/mentally qualified for a job then it takes a lot of the guessing game out of it ..... and future heartache/headache when someone can't perform to the minimum job standards.

The military already does that with PT tests and ASVAB scores.


I agree somewhat.

Just keep in mind that PT tests and ASVAB scores rate your current level of fitness and mental capacity...not what your "potential" is.  If Lance Armstrong decided he was going to be a couch potato and balloon to 300 pounds, I suppose his DNA test would still show that he would be the perfect fit for a Tour de France 7 time champion.  DNA isn't everything.


Except that you are looking at this issue backwards - If Lance was that 300 pound couch potato, and decided to shape up and race the TdF, everyone would laugh at him.  But his DNA would should he had the POTENTIAL to change his body for the better. But for 20% of people (according to the study), they would not benefit from the exercise to change their endurance or fitness.


2010-02-04 6:02 PM
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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
Well, I went from 238lbs to 160lbs by jogging, swimming so atleast i know it works for me.
2010-02-04 6:14 PM
in reply to: #2655863

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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
gearboy - 2010-02-04 1:46 PM
tri808 - 2010-02-04 6:18 PM
Daremo - 2010-02-04 12:51 PM
hamiltks10 - 2010-02-04 12:46 PM

"...said that the discovery would pave the way for more personalised treatments, with patients able to take DNA tests to find out the most effective way of keeping their own hearts healthy.

It could also be used to root out would-be recruits to the Armed Forces who will never be able to reach the required fitness standards. "

That is alarming.  Before you know it, they'll want to give DNA tests before allowing you to hold certain jobs or to be admitted to certain schools...you know, to make sure you'd be able to "reach the required standards".



Nothing wrong with that.  Certain jobs have certain qualification standards for a reason.  If it can be shown outright that someone is simply not physically/mentally qualified for a job then it takes a lot of the guessing game out of it ..... and future heartache/headache when someone can't perform to the minimum job standards.

The military already does that with PT tests and ASVAB scores.


I agree somewhat.

Just keep in mind that PT tests and ASVAB scores rate your current level of fitness and mental capacity...not what your "potential" is.  If Lance Armstrong decided he was going to be a couch potato and balloon to 300 pounds, I suppose his DNA test would still show that he would be the perfect fit for a Tour de France 7 time champion.  DNA isn't everything.


Except that you are looking at this issue backwards - If Lance was that 300 pound couch potato, and decided to shape up and race the TdF, everyone would laugh at him.  But his DNA would should he had the POTENTIAL to change his body for the better. But for 20% of people (according to the study), they would not benefit from the exercise to change their endurance or fitness.


I wasn't talking about Lances capacity to shape up...or anything really about the 20% of the people in the study.  I was commenting on the "hypothetical DNA" test from the poster above which could be used to determine to see if you are qualified to hold certian jobs.

So basically my point is that just because you have the DNA to be great...it doesn't mean that you will be...Lance Armstrong isn't great simply because he's a genetic freak and he can with the TdF without training at all.  His work ethic (which has nothing to do with DNA) is probably a better indicator of why he's great.  His genetics give him an advantage over those with similar work ethics.
2010-02-04 7:56 PM
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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
I once upon a time heard that for every minute of exercise you do, you gain 30 seconds of life expectancy.

Moral: You'd better enjoy your exercise time.

TIA.
2010-02-04 9:48 PM
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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
I am not going to say that everybody is built to TRI.  But I have a hard time believing that people can exercise and not see a benefit.  My wife is the spend the evening with a good book, mixes up the words exercise and torture, kinda girl and she will tell you she feels better after I drag her along for a 10 mile bike.  She has told me that it is something she just doesn't enjoy.  If you don't enjoy something you will not see the full effects.  You'll be too busy not enjoying the task at hand.  (think of a person who has a well paying job they hate.)  But, even if a persons VO2 limits their ability (aka genetics) your strength would improve, circulation, glycogen stores, etc...  As long as a person isn't at serious risk of a massive coronary, I can't imagine not getting some sort of a benefit.

I could be wrong, it's been known to happen.
(They just need a longer training plan Tongue out)
2010-02-04 11:05 PM
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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
I've known of people who did all the right things - ate right, exercised regularly (and we are SO not opening up the "piddling around at the gym" discussion!), parked at the far end of the lot, etc. and could NOT lose the weight, could NOT get fitter, did not have any of the gains we are "supposed" to have. The incredible cycle of disappointment, guilt, and even grief over this is torture. If someone like this could find out, "Hey, your body just isn't going to respond to this," they would know it is their genetics, NOT their own willpower.

I can think of a lot of cases where knowing your DNA is what is holding you back would be such a relief. Exercise, depression, other chemical imbalances, etc. Trust me, as someone going through one of those struggles where there is no way to find out the right answer, I'd love to have a test like this. If nothing else, you can hold your head up and say, "I'm not a failure because I didn't try hard enough."

Also, dontcha think it helps explain all those "fat" athletes out there plugging away year after year? For them, the exercise obviously has other benefits besides the standard ones. For others, not so much.


2010-02-04 11:17 PM
in reply to: #2656247

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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
Slugger - 2010-02-04 7:05 PM I've known of people who did all the right things - ate right, exercised regularly (and we are SO not opening up the "piddling around at the gym" discussion!), parked at the far end of the lot, etc. and could NOT lose the weight, could NOT get fitter, did not have any of the gains we are "supposed" to have. The incredible cycle of disappointment, guilt, and even grief over this is torture. If someone like this could find out, "Hey, your body just isn't going to respond to this," they would know it is their genetics, NOT their own willpower.

I can think of a lot of cases where knowing your DNA is what is holding you back would be such a relief. Exercise, depression, other chemical imbalances, etc. Trust me, as someone going through one of those struggles where there is no way to find out the right answer, I'd love to have a test like this. If nothing else, you can hold your head up and say, "I'm not a failure because I didn't try hard enough."

Also, dontcha think it helps explain all those "fat" athletes out there plugging away year after year? For them, the exercise obviously has other benefits besides the standard ones. For others, not so much.


Fair point.  Not going to argue with that, because the example you provided does exist.  But I would be interested in knowing the science in how these types of people survive.  I guess I'm narrow minded that the whole calorie intake - calories burned = net gain/loss.  I just can't fathom that, working out and sitting on the couch can burn similar amounts of calories...but I'll take that as a homework assignment for myself.

Anyway...while I do admit that there are some people that are genetically disadvantaged when it comes to their metabolism, etc...I can't imagine that it exists in 20% of the population...but I've been wrong many times before.
2010-02-04 11:23 PM
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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
I do not jog,  I RUN.
2010-02-04 11:34 PM
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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
Here's the blurb about the author of this article

"Matthew Moore is a journalist for The Daily Telegraph and Telegraph.co.uk, with a particular interest in the creativity, community and humour of the internet."


You should probably read the summary of the article put out by the people who actually understand the study.

http://www.rvc.ac.uk/News/PressReleases/pr1002_Genes.cfm 
2010-02-05 7:06 AM
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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
Slugger - 2010-02-04 11:05 PM I've known of people who did all the right things - ate right, exercised regularly (and we are SO not opening up the "piddling around at the gym" discussion!), parked at the far end of the lot, etc. and could NOT lose the weight, could NOT get fitter, did not have any of the gains we are "supposed" to have. The incredible cycle of disappointment, guilt, and even grief over this is torture. If someone like this could find out, "Hey, your body just isn't going to respond to this," they would know it is their genetics, NOT their own willpower.

I can think of a lot of cases where knowing your DNA is what is holding you back would be such a relief. Exercise, depression, other chemical imbalances, etc. Trust me, as someone going through one of those struggles where there is no way to find out the right answer, I'd love to have a test like this. If nothing else, you can hold your head up and say, "I'm not a failure because I didn't try hard enough."

Also, dontcha think it helps explain all those "fat" athletes out there plugging away year after year? For them, the exercise obviously has other benefits besides the standard ones. For others, not so much.


I just don't buy this.  Yes, we have individual differences.  No, physiology and physics doesn't change from person to person.  There isn't a single person in the world who can't lose weight.  It's physically impossible.  If you are alive, you're burning calories.  If those aren't replaced by what you eat, your body will get them from somewhere, and that's your body's tissues like fat stores, stored carbohydrates, and some muscle tissue.

The problem is that people "eat right" but don't monitor caloric intake generally.  When people look at how much people think they eat vs. how much they actually eat, it's wildly of generally.

Also there is nothing in this "study" to suggest that there's a genetic reason why they're not losing weight.  You're inferring somthing that isn't there.  Whether or not there's a signfiicant rise in VO2 max or insulin sensitivity doesn't change the fact that the act of exercising directly burns calories.
2010-02-05 7:31 AM
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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
ok even if I believe that there will be no physical benefit for 20% of the population, there is still psychological benefit.  Exercise is the best stress management tool out there.

over the long haul (way longer than this study) the benefits of lower stress likely WOULD impact insulin, c reactive protein, cortisol levels....all ways of reducing disease.


2010-02-05 7:49 AM
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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging

Huh.  A bunch of people on a triathlete board railing against an article stating that exercise may not be as beneficial as we thought.

Shocker.

2010-02-05 2:36 PM
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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
Wow what a poorly done study, or at least poorly written up.  First, the sample is too small, second the duration of the study is too short, third there is no mention of the medical conditions of the folks who did or did not respond, 4th the criteria for responding may or may not have been appropriate for the activity level, etc., the type of activity, duration, frequency, eating habbits, weight of the person, medications used, weight lost, etc. etc. etc.  etc.

Ok so your sample has 10 percent diagnosed as diabetic before the study starts.   Exercize is not going to go back and fix their insolin response in 20 weeks.  Not defining the exercise means that the variation in what people are doing could have more of an impact on the results than the actual thing they are studying.  If I walk 0.5 mph 3x a day for 10 minutes with breaks along the way to smell roses and eat donuts and you run 6 miles in 30 minutes, um which of these is going to have more of an impact on oxygen usage by the muscles?

Better title, "Way too many foiks pretending to be scientists use poorly designed study and yet most folks still benefit from jogging, go figure" or Jogging for 30 mintues 5x per week for 20 weeks does not reverse heart disease.

Their claim is that life long habbits (physical exercise) do not impact suceptability to disease such as diabetes and heart disease, yet they only studied people's response to jogging for 20 weeks.  How can they predict life long without using a longitudinal study?  If they didn't exclude people who already have the disorders, then how can they claim that it is a preventative treatment if the folks already have the disorder.  That is like putting bullet proof vests on gunshot victims in ER's and saying that it did not prevent any of them from being shot, therefor police should not wear bulletproof vests.  Um the person was already shot before the protection was put on, how could it suck the lead out of the person and repair the damage or better yet propell the person back in time to before the event occured?

So many placed to go with this one.... like to a lawsuit for discouraging folks from exercizing without any evidence to support their claims. 

2010-02-05 2:39 PM
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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
Test tube geek report. Attention grabbing headline. Sensationalist BS.
2010-02-05 6:31 PM
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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
Here's a link to a summary which is posted on the Royal Veterinary College website:

Genes reveal how much we will benefit from regular exercise
http://www.rvc.ac.uk/News/PressReleases/pr1002_Genes.cfm

(It's readable to the lay person.)



Edited by D001 2010-02-05 6:33 PM

2010-02-05 8:49 PM
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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
The fact we didn't have a hijack debate of Jogging vs. running has been quite refreshing (yes, I also visit a runners forum).....


2010-02-07 5:35 PM
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Subject: RE: What the heck: Millions of people waste their time by jogging
pga_mike - 2010-02-04 12:31 PM Aerobic exercise helped 80% of the participants in the study.


And the other 20% were probably already exercising that much.  The reporter should be beaten, not the scientist.
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