I'm slower with hand paddles, and slower with a pull buoy

Don't use them! Keep working on your form and timing. Consider getting a tempo trainer if you want to get faster, then you can have a handle on both your pace and your stroke length (in the form of stroke count).

practice, practice, practice. 
But don't overdo the paddles or your shoulders may develop problems.

Going slower with the pull buoy isn't uncommon. You're kicking less (hard to not kick at all) so you'll be a bit slower. You should be less 'gassed' for the same reason. But that's OK, part of the reason for the pull buoy is to allow you to work the upper body for a longer period of time without getting gassed. Concentrate on your form & try to lose the hip wiggle when you've got a buoy on.

I wouldn't worry about your pace with paddles vs. without. Hand paddles can take some getting used to. Yes, they require more strength, but they also accentuate any flaws in your hand position.

When I'm using paddles I focus more on making sure that my hands are entering the water as straight as possible and try to catch as much water as possible during the pull. This slows my turnover rate because I'm working harder for each stroke. I don't try to go for high turnover, especially if I haven't used paddles in a while, because I don't want to put that extra load on my shoulders & risk an injury.

Over time, you'll get stronger & your turnover will increase and your times will drop. But the goal is to improve your strength & form so that you are faster without the paddles. So don't worry about the speed.

Dan
Ol' Dan tri-ing

I go slower too when I try to carry toys in the pool while I swim.

Scrap the toys, do lots of drills in place of those laps. Good luck!

I dropped a lot from my swim times when i started adding in pull sets with paddles.

that said, my fastest all out 100s (i tried this the other day after seeing a few people mention being faster one way or the other), with each, as of this week are as follows.

Swim: 1:01
Pull w/paddles: 1:03
Pull: 1:07

Oh - good to knew that good swimmers are also slower with the hand paddles - I was under the impression that you were supposed to be invariably faster with them.

right now at least with them i can do longer stuff faster. not sure how that will change as i get in better shape though.

I gotta agree here. Maybe a lap or two with paddles to feel stroke. 

-1

I think they can be a huge help if used well.

I agree with newbz here.  I recently began using paddles and it has helped my stroke tremendously.  Anytime I am having trouble with getting that good "feel" for my stroke I grab the paddles and they instantly correct.   

what type/size paddle are you using? most people start with too large of a paddle. you want resistance, but you don't want it to slow your stroke rate. try hans paddles to start.

i suggest mixing up sets with and without a pull-buoy, and use a band around your ankles when using the pull-buoy. start with some 50's before and/or after your main set, BUT be sure you do a warm-up or cool-down when doing them.

it's important you understand what it means to keep a "high-elbow" during the catch and pull phase of the stroke. that needs to be your focus point.

scott

FWIW, the paddles and pull buoy feel far more natural to me than any drill.  I asked tj about  gadgets and he suggested the strokemaker paddles, used with a pullbuoy and to not use any kind of ankle lock.  I usually do 3x100 with paddles, the 3x100 without as part of my warmup, and those paddles are fast, considering I'm doing about 1:35 or so without flip turning(flip turning always pulls them off), and that's the fastest training pace I'll usually do.  I had to build up to that, at first I could only do 2 50's with the paddles, and right now the 3x100 with paddles 3x a week is about the max my shoulders can handle right now.

my paces in order of speed:  No gadgets, with paddles, just pull buoy

x4 and -1/2?

I agree with Newbz that they can be good if used well, but too many people try to use them before they develop good technique.  That's just asking for a shoulder injury.  IMO, most beginners should only use the various toys under the supervision of an experienced coach who employs them to help improve technique.

+1 on this. High level swimmers like collegiate athletes training with handn paddles have much more coaching supervision on deck for constant feedback on stroke technique. I've seen masters swimmers doing a lot of drilling with paddles, and develop a really strong HAND pulling motion, but still with dropped elbows.

If you are looking for ways to change up yoru practice, consider swimmign with a rubber duckie in your hand...it reduces surface area, making you more aware of your forearm, more likely to encourage proper stroke, you can't have a death grip on the duckie (you don't want to kill the lil guy), so your arm stays relaxed...all of which help promote good stroke technique. Then when you let the little duckie go, you feel what your hand can really do in the water.

This user's post has been ignored.

PennState - Believe it or not, I actually took 2 private 1-on-1 lessons as well as attended 2 weeks of a triathlon masters-style swim group earlier this year.

All 3 coaches ok'd my form and said the main thing I needed was more swimming, and more intervals. 2 of these coaches were open-water or regional swim champions in their prime - not just a YMCA coach (which I did hire previously and was competely worthless, no offense to YMCA.) The only tips I received in all sessions was to a slightly lower head position and higher elbows, but apparently, my overall body position and rotation were good. Dang.

Is it true that 1:58/100m pace for 1000+ meters really indicates a big technique error for someone with very little to no swim background, swimming for about a year? I actually hope so, since I could really, really use another technique booster.  



Edited by agarose2000 2010-03-13 1:06 PM

This user's post has been ignored.

Edited by PennState 2010-03-13 2:22 PM

I would think so. Keep in mind that even the fastest swimmers constantly keep up on technique. The difference is that they're getting continuous feedback. You're not. Also, you attended two weeks of masters. You didn't attend a swim camp. You may have let parts of your stroke slide since then, and frankly, two weeks (even if you went every day) isn't that much.

You also haven't mentioned your weekly yardage in how many workouts, how those are generally structured, and how long you've been keeping that yardage up (don't keep logs here, so no way to tell). Even if your form is overall sound, you might not be putting enough swimming or structuring it interval-wise for the kind of improvement you want.

I think paddles can be useful, properly applied. I'm not sure, given what you have said (but we really need to know more) and your times, that you should be using them at this point. If you do, don't use the wrist strap, if there is one. Great way to tell how to improve your stroke ... just keep the finger strap on the middle finger.

Post a video for us!!!

I'm a big fan of training devices. They allow you to focus the workload on certain aspects of your stroke. There's some good advice on this thread like Pennstate's advice on removing the wriststrap. If you pull improperly, chances are the paddle will come off. Yes, paddles can hurt your shoulder's if you work them improperly/too much, but so can push ups or weights. I think there is a mindset with newer swimmers (and triathletes) that you must drill yourself until you have the perfect stroke before you can move on to other things. I couldn't disagree with this more. Swimming makes you a better swimmer. period. Drills etc, can certainly help, but for a good number people reading this, you are do the drills wrong to begin with and/or you can't apply the drill to your stroke once you perfect the drill.
Look at those who swim well and see what they are doing. Do they use equipment? You bet.

As to agarose's OP, I would say stick with it. You may not be faster using equipment, but the paddles will work your upper body and shoulders and cause muscle failure quicker, which is what you want. Same with the buoy, it will force you to work harder in other areas of your stroke, which when you put it all back together you become a faster swimmer.

Having said all that, use some common sense. If you feel things pulling when you are doing a bench press, you stop before you get hurt. Same thing applies with swim equipment. If it gets you tired, great. If you feel things getting tender or hurting in a bad way, then stop and put the equipment up. As to the equipment itself, I have probably tried about everything out there and like strokemakers best for paddles. Some like contoured paddles but I find they cause your hand to dip/veer when you don't want them to. To each his own I guess. Good luck with your training.

Great advice tjfry. So far so good for me with the toys - no bad shoulder problems yet. 

I think I've made good technique progress so far in my past year of swimming (started just over a year ago) and am finally ramping up the volume and speed. 

I've been guilty of  really wimpy swim workouts, averaging only 6500yds/wk in the past months, but I've since upgraded from a ugly, depressing 20yard indoor Ballys pool to a gorgeous 50m outdoor competition pool, which makes 3000m workouts completely enjoyable. I just put up my first 10,000m week this past week - will see if I can keep it up.

I've started using Gale Bernhart's workouts in a binder - really like it.  Great variety, and very easy to get a good solid workout.

Adventurebear - I'm working on getting a Fujifinepix camera to get some underwater video of myself. I'll try and post something when I work out the details! 

Just another post.. I bought those strokemaker paddles after being told about them, and they are very self-explanatory.. they WILL fall off or work really funky if you aren't doing everything right.  I tried it yesterday and purposefully dropped my elbow to see what would happen and it threw everything off. 

I bought the #3's, they're pretty big, but they do give instant feedback.  

To add to tjfry (who I agree with 100%), I'll say that there is no need to time yourself when using swim tools.  There's really no point.  They are used to work on your stroke, which is supposed to help you become more efficient and faster when actually swimming.  How fast you are with buoy's, paddles, or a kick board is irrelevant.  Ignore the clock and work on your form.

Edited by sesh 2010-03-15 9:29 AM