General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swim faster by not swimming slow Rss Feed  
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2010-04-20 6:58 PM

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Subject: Swim faster by not swimming slow

I always tell tri athletes I know that the winter is a great time to work on your swimming. I am not so compulsive about pushing myself to my limit in training so I use the time working on technique.

To swim faster many people just concentrate on swimming harder, looking for better results. But actually you can significantly improve your time by focusing on that part of your stroke where your speed drops to it's lowest. This is the focus of catch up drills. They teach you to maintain a constant speed by making sure you are engaged in the pull phase of the stroke with no gap in the middle. Slowing down when you begin your recovery not only does it hurt your speed, but it also reduces your efficiency which will hurt you later in the race.

I know this has been hashed over in the past and that most of you may already know this. But I thought it might be helpful to repeat it for those heading into their first race of the season with some "concern" about the swim



2010-04-20 7:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim faster by not swimming slow
Yep.

And sometimes you need to also swim as hard as you can until you can't anymore, regardless of how your form looks. I don't look pretty running 800M repeats...but I do look fast.
2010-04-20 7:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim faster by not swimming slow

bryancd - 2010-04-20 5:01 PM Yep. And sometimes you need to also swim as hard as you can until you can't anymore, regardless of how your form looks. I don't look pretty running 800M repeats...but I do look fast.

The only time I look fast running is when some one thinks they saw me on a track (I never train on a track  - long story).

2010-04-20 7:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim faster by not swimming slow
For me, the problem isn't not being aware of that gap - it's simply that I'm not strong enough endurance wise to do it continuously! I suspect it might be the case for a lot of newer swimmers like me - I'd turn over really fast if I could, but it's physically impossible!

Good advice to keep in mind though! 
2010-04-20 7:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim faster by not swimming slow

Actually you are not increasing the speed of your arm during the underwater pull phase. You are just speeding up the recovery and then taking advantage of pulling while in a streamlined position. Think of doing a catchup drill. If anything that feels very slow to most people. Try to move your stroke timing more in the direction of the timing of your catch up drill. It will feel very awkward at first. That is why you should do the catch up drill. It is a gross exaggeration of the adjustment in your stroke timing that you are trying to achieve. 

The principles of hydrodynamics compel you to reduce drag and maintain a constant speed. Making this correction does not require you to get stronger to implement it. It is one of the reasons that I spend so much time on form even after all these years.

2010-04-20 7:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim faster by not swimming slow
agarose2000 - 2010-04-20 8:13 PM For me, the problem isn't not being aware of that gap - it's simply that I'm not strong enough endurance wise to do it continuously! I suspect it might be the case for a lot of newer swimmers like me - I'd turn over really fast if I could, but it's physically impossible!

Good advice to keep in mind though! 


Experts, correct me if I'm wrong.  I think that (part of) the point was not that your strokes per minute should be high.  Rather, your recovery should be quick relative to the pulling part of your stroke.  That can be true regardless of your strokes per minute.


2010-04-20 9:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim faster by not swimming slow
Experior - 2010-04-20 6:31 PM

agarose2000 - 2010-04-20 8:13 PM For me, the problem isn't not being aware of that gap - it's simply that I'm not strong enough endurance wise to do it continuously! I suspect it might be the case for a lot of newer swimmers like me - I'd turn over really fast if I could, but it's physically impossible!

Good advice to keep in mind though! 


Experts, correct me if I'm wrong.  I think that (part of) the point was not that your strokes per minute should be high.  Rather, your recovery should be quick relative to the pulling part of your stroke.  That can be true regardless of your strokes per minute.


Yes. as your stroke rate increases, the overal timing of the stroke changes...a relatively longer part of hte stroke cycle is spent patiently in front and in the catch/pull phase and a relatively shorter time during recovery. otherwise you lose your hold on the water and create turbulence around your forearm/arm losing traction.
2010-04-21 6:53 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim faster by not swimming slow
Just started doing my first catch-ups after the latest resurrection of the Book of BFD.

Feels kinda weird and clumsy but afterwards in my full set, I think I had my first taste of actually getting my chest deep into the water. Still got a long way to go on acheiving any kind of balance, but it's the first time I've started to get a feel for pushing deep.

Constantly struggling with exertion vs efficiency at the moment. I had to take three weeks out to let my right shoulder rest. Then strained the left as soon as I started back in. Really don't want to be forced into more lay-offs. If nothing else, it's making me painfully aware about exerting the right amount of force in the right place.

Haven't seen much change in lap times yet. But I guess for now my main benchmark is - can I swim in the day without being kept awake all night by sore shoulders.

2010-04-21 7:12 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim faster by not swimming slow
There is no Tri - 2010-04-21 6:53 AM Just started doing my first catch-ups after the latest resurrection of the Book of BFD.

Feels kinda weird and clumsy but afterwards in my full set, I think I had my first taste of actually getting my chest deep into the water. Still got a long way to go on acheiving any kind of balance, but it's the first time I've started to get a feel for pushing deep.

Constantly struggling with exertion vs efficiency at the moment. I had to take three weeks out to let my right shoulder rest. Then strained the left as soon as I started back in. Really don't want to be forced into more lay-offs. If nothing else, it's making me painfully aware about exerting the right amount of force in the right place.

Haven't seen much change in lap times yet. But I guess for now my main benchmark is - can I swim in the day without being kept awake all night by sore shoulders.



I'm not sure what sort of training intensity you're doing, but I had very similar problems half a year ago when I took some advice on this forum and switched to almost all moderate-hard intervals for my swim workouts. 12 x 200 or 20 x 100m at tempo or faster pace with 10-20sec rest was typical despite my new swimmer status. I'm sure experienced swimmers can do that day in day out, but with my low triathlon swim volume (which was still about 6000m/wk) and new swimmer status, it was too much for my shoulders and I kept getting recurrent shoulder pain. (My form was checked out to be ok)

I've since been using the "Swim Workouts in a Binder" book, and swimming much longer 3000m workouts 4-5x/week. Much more volume than I did previously. However, the intervals in that book rarely hit the volume I was doing of 12 x 200 or 20 x 100m. A lot more warmup swim but core workouts mostly limited to 1000-1200m of tempo type pacing. My shoulders have responded beautifully, and I've been totally pain free despite swimming 2-3x the volume I previously did.

I've just started this higher volume swim stuff, but as someone with definitely no swim talent whatsoever (negative talent, actually), I'm convinced that I need significant yardage per week in training to get faster. After 6 months of that all hi-intensity swim stuff at 6000 meters per week, I got very marginally faster, despite working really, really hard in the pool.  In contrast, with the higher weekly yardage (and overall less intensity), in 1 month, I've already surpassed all my gains from the past 8 months of swimming. Based on my results in the last 4 weeks, I'd guess that I should be swimming at least 9,000m/wk to get better, and ideally 12,000+m/wk. (I'm a BOP/MOP swimmer, not FOP. I seem to require similar large volumes in run/bike to improve as well, although I'm clearly FOP in those due to years of running hard.)



Edited by agarose2000 2010-04-21 7:13 AM
2010-04-21 7:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim faster by not swimming slow

Here is my simple take on swimming: Swim speed is proportional to Stroke Length x Stroke Frequency. The biggest 'bang-for-the-buck' most novices can get is by improving their stroke length as it gives you more speed without much more effort.

 Once you have 'decent' reach technique its hard to increase your stroke length (unless your arms can grow) – so the trick to more speed is to swim ‘faster’

2010-04-21 10:26 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim faster by not swimming slow
E=H2O - 2010-04-20 4:58 PM

I always tell tri athletes I know that the winter is a great time to work on your swimming. I am not so compulsive about pushing myself to my limit in training so I use the time working on technique.

To swim faster many people just concentrate on swimming harder, looking for better results. But actually you can significantly improve your time by focusing on that part of your stroke where your speed drops to it's lowest. This is the focus of catch up drills. They teach you to maintain a constant speed by making sure you are engaged in the pull phase of the stroke with no gap in the middle. Slowing down when you begin your recovery not only does it hurt your speed, but it also reduces your efficiency which will hurt you later in the race.

I know this has been hashed over in the past and that most of you may already know this. But I thought it might be helpful to repeat it for those heading into their first race of the season with some "concern" about the swim



Totally agree. I've been an 1:10 IM swimmer for 3 races. For my 4th race I actually swam less in training and did 1:00:1 (if I'd know I was 2 seconds of going sub 1hr I'd pushed a little harder...). I did two things different besides swimming less:
1. Drills and technique work. I was totally resting during my stroke with my arm still near my waist. Once I got to swimming in more of the catch up or front quadrant style my stroke count decreased and my speed picked up. I also started to rotate in the water much better.
2. I did a couple months of high intensity short sessions once or twice a week. Our gym had an ex Coast Guard Rescue Swimmer that taught class based off their training. Nothing more than 250yd at a time, but lots of speed work. That really helped too.


2010-04-21 12:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim faster by not swimming slow

I started back into swimming after getting involved involved in triathlons. Because of a chronic shoulder problem I could not swim hard in training so I spent most of my pool time working on technique. On race day I would just swim as fast as I could and I was surprised to find out that my overall conditioning from training the bike & run carried over to swimming, and my good form made me quick enough to swim FOP. Keeping in mind that I never trained to swim a fast 100. I trained to swim a fast 1500 (and 5K for my OW races).

2010-04-22 8:26 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim faster by not swimming slow
agarose2000 - 2010-04-22 12:12 AM
I'm not sure what sort of training intensity you're doing, but I had very similar problems half a year ago when I took some advice on this forum and switched to almost all moderate-hard intervals for my swim workouts...

I'm mostly doing 2 x 1500 OW and 2 x 2k pool per week.

For the pool, I was previously doing more or less 5 x 400m but I was getting panicked in the middle of a 400m, so I started cutting it down to 5 x (4x 100m) with 15sec between 100s and 1:30 rest every 400m. Also partly on the basis of BT wisdom that shorter distances get faster results. I suppose that change to 100m sets roughly corresponds to when I first started hurting.

On the OWS, my main issue is when I'm on a choppy sea and I have to keep fighting the impulse to muscle it out.

Thanks for the tip. I'll have a go and see how it works for me.
2010-04-22 12:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim faster by not swimming slow

There is no Tri - 2010-04-22 6:26 AM .

For the pool, I was previously doing more or less 5 x 400m but I was getting panicked in the middle of a 400m, so I started cutting it down to 5 x (4x 100m) with 15sec between 100s and 1:30 rest every 400m. Also partly on the basis of BT wisdom that shorter distances get faster results. I suppose that change to 100m sets roughly corresponds to when I first started hurting.

On the OWS, my main issue is when I'm on a choppy sea and I have to keep fighting the impulse to muscle it out.

Thanks for the tip. I'll have a go and see how it works for me.

I think that's a good workout. I personally repeat workouts without getting bored, but most like more variety.

You observation about falling into the bad habit of trying to muscle through rough water is a good one. It is critical in open water that you find a rhythm in rough water or it will exhaust you.

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