Starting over with a TI stroke for 1st Oly-short vs long term goals

I work on swim technique Nov-Jan each year. Then accept where I am, move towards swim training with still 10-15' of drilling after warm up each swim workout, gain swim fitness.

One winter I took private TI lessons from Jan-May working only on technique changes then started more traditional swim training.

This user's post has been ignored.

Edited by UrsusAdiposimus 2010-06-04 2:06 PM

What made you consider "rebuild" of your stroke?  I started using TI, and it's great for balance & body position.  Also good for 2 beat kick, which helps save the legs in longer tri's.  TI DVD helped me go from gassed@50M 18mo ago to regular mile+ swims now. OTOH- I've looked elsewhere for tips on improving catch/pull.  I've taken some non-TI lessons which did ZERO for me, and others which helped.  Even submitted a video here for helpful analysis by other BTers.   FWIW- All those "kick harder" drills did NOTHING for my long swims, so I don't do much of that right now.  Maybe during winter to build stamina, but in-season it just saps my legs for other workouts.  As coaches at Triswimcoach.com put it- "Kicking is primarily for hip rotation and balance rather than propulsion."  And kicking like hell takes a lot of energy that most feel could be better spent during the bike & run.

Anyway- If you can hold <2min/100y for sprint, I'll bet you could do 1500M Oly swim now if you cut your pace a bit (maybe to 2:15/100?).  You might try 100-200 warm-up, then start swimming long & slow to see how far you can go.  Swim so easy you feel you could go on all day.  Just might surprise yourself.  Once you are confident you can go the distance you can add some effort to build more speed.  That's what many of us newb's have done to prep for 1st Oly.

Thanks for replies.

I thought i would rebuild because thats what TI suggests, and I dont really have much idea how to improve my speed and endurance other than reps/miles in the pool.

I dont think Ill have access to a TI instructor, but could make a seminar.

I agree that this would be an easier prop. in January than in mid season.

Thanks for the encouragement on the mile swim. I suspect I could finish the distance now, I was wondering if just drilling for 3 months would cause regression vs improvement. After just finishing 45 minutes of drills, I would tend to agree with Terry that there must be some low intensity benefit to this sort of work, though obviously not the same as 45 minutes of 50-1oom repeats.

Terry  really stresses that anyone at any level can benefit from TI drills and principles. I am very interested to hear your personal experiences and perspectives.

Disclaimer: I am a TI coach.

I read one of the TI books in 2006 after back surgery, and it got me back in the water swimming without back or neck pain (which I'd previously had). The biggest thing I got out of it was balance. For the next 4 years I swam on my own never getting any faster than a distance pace of 1:50ish and a fastest 100 pace of 1:39 ish.

Frustrated, and knowing that I watned to be able to offer swim instruction to my triathlets, I took the TI weekend workshop this past January from Coach Dave Cameron, with the intention of becoming a TI coach, not expecting a change in my stroke. I came into the clinic with good fore/aft balance and was able to take away additional t hings from Dave (since I'd already mastered that one). I learned the two beat kick, I learned hwo to coordinate kick/pull, I learned that swimming is really about a weight shift from right to left, and not about kicking and pulling at all. The coolest part was that I learned, from Coach Dave, at a weekend workshop clinic how the high elbow catch feels and how to create it....the funny part is that I THOUGHT I had already mastered the high elbow catch...I'd watched all the videos I could find, I even used the Halo Trainer with Craig Askin's himself to help practice it. Yet I could never manage to make it part of my stroke until I took the TI weekend workshop.

From Jan to March, I didn't get faster, but I could swim wiht more ease and relaxation and every single swim session I did literally felt like the best swim session I'd ever done. When Coach Dave saw me swim next, one of the first things he commented on was that I was getting the high elbow catch down pretty well.

My typical "workout" would consist of about 20 minutes or so of doing some drills..whatever I felt needed some brushing up. When I felt comfortable with the drills I would get into the lap pool and swim 25s with sole focus on one stroke thought at a time and really firmed up the new lessons I'd learned in Jan.

In March I took the Coaching weeklong workshop which ran in conjunction with the Perpetual Motion Freestyle weeklong workshop and further refined my stroke, learning more about the catch, arm shape and position, stroke timing, deliberate changes in speed (changing gears) and how to use the tempo trainer in workouts.


Since then I've been setting PRs about once a week at all distances from 100 to 1000 yards, thanks to knowing exactly how I've created the speed that I'm swimming (Stoke length, stroke rate) and knowing how to fine tune my stroke by tuning into proprioceptive thoughts and feelings I'd previously not even known were present.

it did take time to learn new elements and make them a permanent part of my stroke, but in the process I learned how to practice mindfully, I enjoy EVERY stroke I take in the water, I leave every workout in an intense state of relaxation...and I'm getting faster every week. There was never a time when I felt that I couldn't swim at the expense of just doing drills, alhtough I have taken my time in building up to longer sets so that I can be sure every stroke I take has a purposeful thought along with it.

My current best 100 is now 1:24/100 and I can swim repeated sub 1:30 100s easily...wheras in January, I was lucky if I could hit a 1:40 at will.

I have a steadily progressing plan for workouts that I know I will continue to improve from, and plan to test my new strokes at several 1 & 2 mile open water swims this summer.

Edited by AdventureBear 2010-06-04 5:56 PM

One other thing to consider is that you don't have to do "just drills" for 3 months. Terry has posted numerous "stroke thoughts" that you can integrate into your whole stroke practice as well. Search for his user name, "Total Immersion", and I imagine he'lll probably add his own thoughts here.

Thanks for your detailed reply.

I guess this answers an unasked question, " Do you feel TI is a good way for a 2:00 swimmer to get to 1:30?", which is the reason I had considered a "rebuild" on my stroke.  It certainly is an enticing concept to think that 70% of this change can be made merely with technique and effiency, rather than power and endurance ( which we all wish we had more of). 

Ill also take this as endorsement of the benefit of option #4 above, merely adding TI drills to a structured workout. 

Im still wondering if most would feel a 2:00 swimmer might have a better long term tri career with a 100% perfect(not 95%) TI from the bottom up stroke.

Thanks for the input.

Ok, lets look at one thing here.

First, as far as TI, if you don't know how to swim, or have horrible form, TI can teach you a good, basic stroke. It's slow, but it functions. It does not teach to you swim fast, no matter how much Terry and I go around and around with each other (Caveat: It does work for some people, it clicks with them. Every system works for someone). It is extremely good at teaching a basic, functional stroke to those that don't know how or are uncomfortable with the swim.

But, before you head down that path, your swim workouts are 1200-1500 yards? How many times a week? You're barely even doing the race distance at your top end.

I know that hardly anyone except us fishes like the swim, but would you prep for a 25 mile bike leg by riding 25 miles couple times a week?

If you can swim 1:50/100 as a sustained pace, you've got at least decent technique. I would wager significant money that if you bumped your yardage up to between 2-3000 yards per session, 2-3 times/week with some interval training thrown in there, your times would drop without having to rebuild your stroke.

Save your money, put more time in the pool, and make it hurt a bit.

John

Edited by tkd.teacher 2010-06-05 12:50 AM

In the most direct terms possible, John has no clue what he's talking about. His claim that he and I have "gone round and round with each other" flatters him but mystifies me. His post gives the impression he has some actual first-hand knowledge of TI coaching, but what he says makes clear he has none.

Acknowledging up front that Suzanne and I are biased, we at least know first-hand what TI teaches and what it can potentially do for a triathlete. Based on her personal experience, she is using a 100 percent TI approach with the triathletes she is coaching professionally.

Here are several things it would be helpful to understand - not just about TI but about how swimming is different from cycling and running.

1) Swimming is a non-instinctive, counter-intuitive, highly exacting skill. It is also a movement discipline. Despite appearances it is not primarily an aerobic activity. Without question the movements are fueled by the aerobic energy system, but unless you develop a reasonable foundation of body control and fluency, more laps -- and particularly laps intended to "make you hurt a little bit" will do nothing other than deepen your *struggling skills." Which means your aerobic fuel is going to waste.

2) Dolphins convert 80% of energy and horsepower into forward movement. Humans convert 3%. This was documented in a study by DARPA engineers and physicists during a project to design a new swim foil for the Navy Seals. Human swimmers are Energy Wasting Machines -- and this does not even contemplate the vastly greater potential for energy waste when you put an inexperienced swimmer into an open water distance swim amidst the mayhem and chaos of 100s of other semi-frantic inexperienced swimmers. The DARPA studies were done with a lone swimmer in the calm of a pool, swimming only a short distance. You do not solve energy waste by focusing on aerobic conditioning. That's like putting a bigger fuel tank in a car that has a massive leak in its fuel line.

3) The primary source of energy waste is the massive creation of drag and turbulence. Ineffective pulling and kicking are far less significant sources. Insufficiently powerful pulling and kicking are not your "swimming problem." A faster stroke rate will only INCREASE your swimming problem and energy waste.

4) I've seen a powerful inclination to believe, wish or hope that one can address fundamental and overwhelming problems such as those I describe with a quick fix "I had one lesson with a TI coach." This is the equivalent of getting a flu shot when your body is wracked with cancer. Improving as a swimmer is a commitment that, fantastically, offers the potential of a lifetime of learning and improvement.

5) I understand that few people who face a race in the next week or two want to hear about long-term commitment. I also understand that practicing drills is not for all. This is why hardly any of the posts I've made on this forum have mentioned or suggested drills, while a dozen or more have suggested ways to make basic reductions in energy waste with "Stroke Thoughts."

6) Greater speed is not a product of more laps, more kicking, more stroke rate, or more hurtin'. It is a product of one unchanging, non-negotiable absolute -- an improved combination of Stroke Length and Stroke Rate. For the vast majority of swimmers increasing Stroke Rate will result in a decrease in Stroke Length. A zero sum gain for speed, but an increase in your already catastrophic energy waste.

The most important lesson Suzanne has learned about speed thus far is that you gain it through patient and disciplined practice to create tiny improvements in SL, then combine them with tiny increases in SR. It's a day-by-day thing that is more art than science. But, as she relates, for the first time in her three decades of experience in swimming, she is recording PRs steadily at distances from 100 to 1000. She also has a clarity of purpose and direction that was never there before, resulting from a personal commitment to become a *student of swimming.*

I've related previously that five TI coaches have won over a dozen USMS open water national championships, three have ranked #1 in their USMS age group for open water swimming, and two have broken USMS national open water records. So any claim that TI "does not teach you to swim fast" is simply misinformed.

This is not a matter of "what TI can do or not do" for you. It's a matter of understanding that swimming performance has virtually nothing in common with running or cycling performance and therefore one cannot train for all three in the same way and expect the same results. Are there exceptions to that principle? Yes but in every instance these exceptions already have a reasonable level of swimming skill and are likely more-gifted-than-average as athletes. For 99% of the people in the field of the next race you do, this will not be the case.

I'd invite Suzanne as someone who, unlike me, has trained in and coached all three disciplines, and is a highly successful cycling coach, to comment on insights she has gained into the distinctions between the three. Perhaps especially about how she and her athletes gain speed in running and cycllng as distinct from swimming.

Edited by Total Immersion 2010-06-05 6:55 AM

This user's post has been ignored.

PS: I feel I need to say this one more time and in its own post, because of the likelihood this critical point will get lost in the usual storm of debate over TI.

The question of what TI can or cannot do for you is a triviality and an unfortunate distraction from the far more important question of what you can do for yourself.

Your most important tool is knowledge, to allow informed and critical thinking as you plan, execute and evaluate your efforts.

The most critical knowledge to enjoy success (as you define it) in triathlon is to understand the defining distinctions between the single aquatic discipline and the two terrestrial disciplines. That change in medium makes ALL the difference.

Whether you do drills, whose drills you do, how many drills you do are trivial matters compared to that knowledge.

Disclaimer: I am a swim coach, this is what I do for a living.

I completely agree with what John is saying about your existing swim workouts. Increase the yardage, increase the intensity. If you want to see some of the swim workouts that I use for my swimmers (who have gone from 1:50/100 in March to about 1:25/100 in June), check out http://www.coachtj.com/?page_id=96

If you are currently swimming sub-2:00, your best bet would be to train smarter, instead of trying to rebuild your stroke. Rebuilding your stroke may make you faster and it man NOT make you faster (it may even make you slower). Increasing your distance and intensity WILL make you faster.

Edited by tjtryon 2010-06-05 7:24 AM

Oh, I agree, but there are a lot of triathletes out there that really don't have a clue on swimming. I've tried TI, and worked on some of the drills. Terry has a good system, I just personally don't believe that it teaches people how to swim fast, and there are others that agree with me. If I know someone that needs stroke work and doesn't have access to a coach, TI is a good system.

I'm far from an elite swimmer, though. I swim well, and I swam competitively at a high level (Just not as high as others on here), for a long time.

I don't want this to be a TI bash either, I do believe it has its place and it does work for a lot of people, I just don't think its a *fast* option, but YMMV.

John

The improvements I've made since January have been done on an average of less than 1500 yards per workout. Only in the past few weeks have I done indivudual workouts in the 3000 yard range, (and those are workouts that have specific intentions to see how my stroke length changes after warmup, or with fatigue, or are specifically designed to alter my stroke rate over a fixed distance and observe the effects on speed)...yet my weekly yardage has been only 2000-5000 yards since January.

You can get faster on fewer yards of swim practice that are specifically designed to reduce drag, increase stroke length and very gradually, increase stroke rate.

I also don't want to refuel the endless round and round debates that go on with TI...but just to share my own personal experiences and specifically, that my gains were made on very little yardage.

Suz- I have a ton of respect for you and your program, which is why I have been trying to avoid the TI "debates" (honestly, the respect I have for you is the only reason I have been avoiding the debates - I want to see your swimming, and how well your programming is progressing 1 year out from learning TI). Don't read anything below as being part of the TI debates, as frankly I don't want to be involved. I think the improvements in your swimming are twofold.

1) TI gave you a more efficient stroke than you had before. I have no idea if this is the most efficient you can get your stroke, but that is not at issue. I would suspect that your current stroke could be made more efficient by changing your form to get rid of some of the TI band-aids and adopt better techniques/form (example: TI uses head position in the water to control hips, the better/more efficient way to do this - in the eyes of a true swimmer - would be to use proper posture to control body position). Regardless, TI helped to give you a more efficient stroke than you had previously.

2) You are putting forth a ton of effort into your swimming. You are constantly in the pool, constantly refining your stroke, etc. I think you are the exception to the typical audience for TI - most looking into TI are looking for a quick band-aid to get them through a sprint distance swim. It does not matter if this is the intended audience - this is the perceptions - and what has become a reality for those wanting to be able to survive a swim. Most do the minimum necessarily to get through the swim. Point is, you are working very hard at improving.

I think out of the two reasons, #2 is probably responsible for the largest improvements. In this instance TI has helped, but doing stroke development of any flavor would have helped, maybe more, maybe less. You have a very fine attention to detail, and your motivation level is huge. Regardless of the methods, drills, skills you are using, you are training hard to learn to be better/faster in the water. It has completely paid off for you, and I hope your new found skills are able to translate to the TI clinics you are coaching.

Edited by tjtryon 2010-06-05 7:31 PM