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2011-05-04 9:10 PM

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Subject: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside

Hi fellas...

'just starting to hit the pool more often and my biggest challenge right now is how to keep my freakin' anchor-legs/hips from sinking so much.  'been keeping my head low as much as possible to maintain balance.  It's helping but I think I'm missing quite a bit more in my drills...

I'd appreciate any/all corrective feedback from you all expert swimmers.

 

LINK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgHnwjuT6hI

 

Thank...



2011-05-05 2:19 AM
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Subject: RE: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside

Personally I'd slow down, looks like you're rushing your stroke a lot which usually leads to poor form. Until you have the technical bits down don't go for any speed / distance stuff, technique is soooo important in swimming it pays huge dividends to take the time to get it right.

I'm sure there are bucket loads of links but have a look at the recent TI post.

 

2011-05-05 6:42 AM
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Subject: RE: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside

I am by no means an expert, but what I see is that you are pushing your head up out of the water.  This will bring your legs down.  I would read one of the books about total immersion swimming and watch the video as well.  There is a wealth of information there about how to develop a connection with the water and balance.  Also, you may want to get some lessons from a coach or instructor.  They will hopefully have some good drills for you.  If you look on youtube, there should also be some good videos about TI drills.  

I'm also seeing that you are crossing your arms over the mid-line with each stroke.  You want to try to reach straight forward from the shoulder.  There are some great swimmers here that hopefully chime in and give more specific advise.  Good luck.  

2011-05-05 7:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside
In my non-expert opinion, you may need to have more body roll. That will (hopefully) prevent the need for you to lift your head to breathe which causes your left arm to push down violently.  See all those bubbles caused by the left hand vs the right?  
2011-05-05 7:45 AM
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Subject: RE: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside

1: first section where you're swimming away from camera, you can see just how much you're lifting your head out of the water. you're body is a fulcrum, with your lungs be the center of gravity. If you lift your head, your feet will go down, plain and simple

2: second section when you're swimming towards the camera, appears as if you may be over-extending your stroke. try to have your hand entry a little bit closer to your head, and extend your hands into the water, as opposed to pushing down and back on the water. 

3: you're kicking like a banshee, but well below the water, you're expending just as much water pushing your body up as you are pushing your body forward.

4: slow down your stroke, and concentrate on your glide. 

2011-05-05 7:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside

More non-expert advise (since you asked :D)

Cliff Notes

Your hips are too low in the water, both during stroke and they drop lower when you breath due to head lift.  When I swim I can feel my back and butt out of the water (full disclosure:  I have a coach that watches twice a week).  This will make turning to breath easier and not make your head come so high out off the water.  Think about one goggle in the water and one out of the water when you breath.  I battled lifting my head for a while

Also looks like you're moving laterally and kind of flailing.  Doesn't look relaxed so as others have said maybe slow down a little.

And finally.. the best money I've ever spent in triathlon is a swim coach.  Master program, anything.  Having a good coach stand there and give you drills to help with your faults is priceless



2011-05-05 8:14 AM
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Subject: RE: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside

Ok, I am not going to disagree with anyone here who commented on the body position. The lower body is indeed low, BUT the problem isn't really head position.  The reason your lower body rides so low in the water is because it is acting independently of your upper body.  There is no rhythm, timing or synchronization between the two.  Rhythm, timing and synchronization are fundamentals of body position. What you physically do with your head is fine tuning, not fundamental.

You are pretty much kicking like mad. Looks like an 8 beat kick but I really can't count fast enough to be sure.  Not sustainable and not real pretty. And this is a good thing. There is so much low hanging fruit of increased speed for you it is almost silly.

You need to tune in to your kick, become aware of it. Then seek to exert some control over it. I would start with 6 strokes kicking normally and then 6 strokes not kicking at all.  This is the simplest form of what we call "pulse kicking" or pulsing between two different forms of kicking. You can do this any number of ways, but the simplest is simply pulsing between a normal kick and no kick. This is the first level of control.  Stopping and starting.

You feet will likely drop when you cease kicking and this is ok. What you can do is become aware of perhaps, when they 'want' to kick.  Or how they undulate behind you. Let this undulation occur, don't try to hold your legs rigid.

This synchronization I speak of is a primary concern in our 12 week program, so I can't really give it away here. Needless to say, it takes more than one session to become aware, later exert some type of control, and eventually exert the proper control. But once you learn these things, body position and many other flaws will correct themselves spontaneously.

 

2011-05-05 9:26 AM
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Subject: RE: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside

 

Get a pull buoy and concentrate on the body position it will give you.  Once you get level in the water you will see a speed increase with lower effort.  At first don't kick at all.  Learn the overall body position first.  When you are comfortable with the new body position you can add a soft six beat kick into your stroke.   Learn this while using the pull buoy.  Keep the pull buoy between the thighs will help you learn the soft six kick.  If this proves difficult to do then I would suggest learning the two beat kick and synchronize the kick with the arm pull.   Total immersion does the best job of teaching this.

I prefer the soft six beat myself, but that just me and has worked for me all these years.

 

The pull buoy is  a temporary fix and a learning tool.  Don't get hooked on using it for the long term.  But I think in your case it is the fastest and easiest way to learn proper body position in the water.

2011-05-05 10:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside

It's very helpful to see a video of the stroke - both for the coach and the student.

I did a very brief screencast analysis of your stroke and compared it to an excellent (and free) video tool: Mr. SwimSmooth.  Swimsmooth has plenty of tips and advice on how to correct stroke faults, and short of paying for professional coaching this is an excellent free resource.

Here is a brief breakdown of some of the errors from your video:

Swimanalysis
2011-05-05 11:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside
Excellent job nicetricoaching!!!  I wish I had a video of my swim stroke for you.  
2011-05-05 12:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside

All your constructive feedback mean a whole lot to me, fellas.  Thanks for spending the time in critiquing my swim habits and writing your training points down. 

I've watched a ton of swim vids, to include Total Immersion, and read quite a bit of knowledge-base here at BT.  It's so much different though when the feedback I'm reading is all about the way I'm doing it.  Thanks...

Integrating all the small (but very important) details can be overwhelming at times.  But, I'm slowly picking things up...  Likewise, with so many different ways to get things done (arriving at the same output), following a single-effective technique (be it a kick, a stroke, a catch, or a rotation) and sticking to it can be a challenge on its own.

I have been a non-swimmer for the past 40-years and I'm determined to learn swimming -- the right way.

I will categorize all the tips you've written here and will train/drill on those with more focus.  'will post another vid in a week or two for progress report.

Thanks again!

H.Hanzo



2011-05-05 1:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside

One last thing, all the videos and reading in the world, wont necessarily teach you to be a good swimmer. I think swimming is a lot like golf, unlike most sports that are 75% effort and 25% form, golf and swimming are the opposite. 25% effort and 75% form. And just like you can read all the tips in golf magazine every week, it wont necessarily help your game. 

I whole-heartedly suggest some swim lessons if it's at all in your budget. 

2011-05-05 6:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside

@Cavemann -- Getting a private lesson (from someone who does Tri) is one of the things I'm seriously considering.  Thanks for the feedback, man.

 

@NiceTriCoaching -- That is one awesome swim analysis you did for me.  Thanks for analyzing and taking the time in critiquing my body movements in the water.  I specifically dig the analogy with "Maslow's"  -- that's exactly one of the things I've been searching for -- a way to address the components of an efficient swim in a hierarchical fashion.

 

So much to learn and absorb... 'will definitely post a response vid as I spend more time in the water; and will report back on my progress based on the feedback received here.

 

Thanks again...

 

H.Hanzo



Edited by hattorihanzo 2011-05-05 6:23 PM
2011-05-05 9:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside

had an analysis done not to long ago and some points of mine that were similar:

I was keeping my focus more down, was told to look at more of a 45 deg angle.. called the "Jay Leno Chin" drill. Wanted the water hitting top part of my forehead.. Getting my head up helped with breathing, before I had to lift my head up and turn to breath which in turn would cause my legs, etc to sink.. Having my head further up/out, I could just piviot and not waste so much energy.

Also, i had my hands entering not too far ahead of my head, in turn i was pushing water with my bicep/arm in turn slowing me down. Extended m stroke so that my entry point was much further out.. had me "reaching for the corners" if you will to keep my arms from crossing over the center line.

Worked well for me, had to change some habits but it's been beneficial..

2011-05-05 9:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside
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2011-05-05 10:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside
NiceTriCoaching - 2011-05-05 9:50 AM

It's very helpful to see a video of the stroke - both for the coach and the student.

I did a very brief screencast analysis of your stroke and compared it to an excellent (and free) video tool: Mr. SwimSmooth.  Swimsmooth has plenty of tips and advice on how to correct stroke faults, and short of paying for professional coaching this is an excellent free resource.

Here is a brief breakdown of some of the errors from your video:

Swimanalysis

 

I gotta say, that's VERY nice of you to take the time to put that together! Thanks so much for doing that, as I'm gaining some help from it as well.



2011-05-07 11:29 AM
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Subject: RE: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside

Here are some personal observations about why I'm doing the things that I'm NOT supposed to be doing.  I broke down my flaws into three major error-groups.

1) Lifting head instead of rotating body to get a breath of air:  Often I find myself not getting enough propulsion in order to create the "wake" which in turn creates the air pocket that allows for "half-goggle" rotated breathing.  When I try/practice swimming sideways, then slightly lifting head to either right or left, I end up getting a gulp of water (no matter how small of an amount) or water in my nose, which makes my body tense up.  A ripple effect then takes place.

2) Continuing from above... as I lose relaxation, I end up hurrying my strokes to increase propulsion for the next breath.  High-marrionette elbow, mail-slot catch plans go down the drain.

3) The legs become out-of-sync with my arms and the hips drop along with my legs.  I end up trying to compensate by increasing my kick cadence or making large scissor kicks in the hopes of regaining balance underwater.  Slow, pulsating, slightly bent knee kick plan disappears with the buble trail.

Action/Remediation Plan

Since my biggest error (in my limited opinion) is how to efficiently breath, I thought of isolating this component by focusing more on my catch/pull and body rotation.  So that I'm not handicapped by my banshee-kicking habit, I plan on re-using my fins. The fins should allow me to 1) increase propulsion with limited kicks, 2) slow me down enough so I can maintain a relaxed posture and consciously do my catch/pulls; and 3) get me back in the habit of making small, knee bent kicks (instead of the large scissor kicks show in the vid).

I plan to do the above for 30min straight, then take off the fins, re-attempt the training, and see how much my body has adjusted (to the catch/pull/body rotation muscle-memory).  If the 30-min has impact, I will stick with it for 1-week.  If my body goes back to its "old ways,"  I will increase the 30min to 45min, then re-attempt to swim with the fins.  Plan is to swim at least 4x-5x weekly for 45min-1hr while slowly vid-recording my progress at the beginning and at the end of each training period.

 

Question for you all:

Does the plan above makes sense?  Should I put more focus on something else at this point?  If so, which component(s) do I need to hit the most in order to correct my biggest flaws (which is/are -- breathing; kicks)?

 

Thanks.

 

 



Edited by hattorihanzo 2011-05-07 11:47 AM
2011-05-07 8:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside
I think you should just get a pull buoy and work on your stroke. Then you won't have to even think about what your feet are doing and you can get into your groove without windmilling trying to not drown.
2011-05-07 10:25 PM
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Subject: RE: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside

Thanks, Rick...  I'll try both approaches and see which one produces the result(s) I'm looking for.

Cheers.

2011-05-09 9:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Noob Need Help with Swimming - Vid Inside
You spoke about the way you are raising your head and that's going to push the legs and butt down it also causes you to use extra energy to raise your head instead letting the top of your head rest on the water and just rotate to the side. Yes the little wake makes it so you don't have to rotate as far but you don't need the little pocket it creates to breathe rotating your head.

I think the thing you would benefit the most from would be improving your balance by learning how to float on the top of the water without moving. If you can learn how to adjust your body so that you can lay flat on the water then ALL of your energy can be used to pull your body through the water instead of your kick being used to keep you butt up. Something you can try if just trying to float gets frustrating is to gently push off the wall and try to go as far as your can with both arms stretched out in front of you trying to keep you legs/butt up until they drop, repeat that trying to go farther each time until you get it. A way I think about this is to use a teeter totter as an example, if you want one side to go up, you have to push the other side down, it also has to be rigid, you can't do it with a piece of cooked spaghetti.

Good luck and have fun!!

ps, I'm no coach, nor an accomplished swimmer, just someone trying to improve myself.

Edited by crusevegas 2011-05-09 9:37 AM
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