Breating exercises / lung capacity

I don't think they work. My understanding is that the lungs aren't a muscle, the diaphram has to push on the lungs to get them to work. Not sure but I was told they are useless. If you want to help your breathing in swimming, swim 25yds with one breath. Do that a few times during each workout and you will start to build up your lung capacity.

wow how cool! i will start doing that (i smoked for 7 years, so my lungs are still "rebuilding")

here are hypoxic drills/sets you can do during your swim workout to work on lung capacity:

4x200 breath every 3,5,7,9 (or 2,4,6,8 if you dont bi-lateral breath) by 50. Eg. 1st. 50 breath every 3, second 50 every 5, etc. :15 rest between 200s

5x100 breathing 3,5,7,9 on :10 rest

5x100 4 breaths on 1st lap, 3 on second lap, 2 on third lap, 1 on last lap on :30 rest

10x25 1/2 lap underwater kick, 1/2 lap easy on :10 rest

8x50s odds:25 sprint -1/2 lap no breath, 1/2 lap easy, evens: 25 no breath (or 1 breath), 1/2 lap sprint, 1/2 lap easy on :15 rest

That's a big 10-4 good buddy. Shallow water black-out is no joke... you really should be doing them with a partner who is paying undivided attention to you. Even then it get's dicey and they need to know what to do to revive you.

bts

good point marmadaddy. Make sure you have a "buddy" or let the guard know your doing hypoxic sets.
Also, dont hold your breath so long that you start to see stars or start blacking out It's unsafe and you can kill brain cells in the process. I have done this in the past...the old age group swim coach says lets see who can swim the furthest underwater and me being my competitive self and having a rediculous amount of lung capacity wants to win...i've done 75 meters underwater and 2:00 deadmans floats...but not before almost passing out which is totally unsafe and also unnecessary.

another good one: 12 x 25 on :35 fly breathing every 3rd stroke. I make my kids do this all the time. They hate it, I love it


"5x100 4 breaths on 1st lap, 3 on second lap, 2 on third lap, 1 on last lap on :30 rest"
AKA Twinkies



Edited by thegomer 2005-11-18 12:39 PM

It seems to me that physiologically, the limitation would be in how efficiently the muscles are using oxygen.  The best way to train your muscles for more efficient O2 use is by aerobic endurance training, NOT hypoxic training.    If you're trying to train your muscles ot work more efficiently with LESS oxygen, you need to train in the anaerobic level by increasing the intensity of your muscle use, NOT by limiting your intake of oxygen. 

It is more likely that "hypoxic" training does nothing whatsoever to change the way your body uses oxygen, but instead gives your body the ability to tolerate more carbon dioxide waste products in your bloodstream.

So please, people, breath.

I'm a new swimmer, so this comment/question will reflect that...

I wasn't able to do any distance in the pool beyond 50 yards until I allowed myself to breathe every stroke cycle. My assumption is I need to (somehow) work toward decreasing that breath frequency. Is it going to be one of those "you'll just know" phenomenons? Or are their specific workouts that I need to do to attain this?

You're not going to be able to build swimming endurance if you don't breath, whether thats every stroke, 2,3,5,7 or whatever.  You need oxygen for your muscles to work.  YOu are breathing every stroke right now because your muscles are not used to swimming and how ot swim efficiently.  The best thing you can do is to work on your technique.  Since you MUST breath, you'll need to learn how to do that efficiently without interupting your stroke.  As your technique improves, your muscles use oxygen more efficiently, and your need to breath every 1,2,3 strokes or whatever will naturally decrease. 

As a new swimmer, the only breathing advice I'll give (aside from doing it as often as needed) is to learn how to breath on both sides.

AdventureBear is 100% right. Hypoxic swim training does not work for triathletes, who race at distances requiring aerobic conditioning.

The "lung expanders" strengthen the respiratory muscles in the ribcage and the diaphragm. This enables these mucles to expand the lungs at a slightly lower energy cost. These devices do work, but they produce very small gains at sea level. I have one and have had clients use it when traveling to altitude to race.

Ken

He could do Hypoxic drills...

But, I know of no study that indicates that they work. In fact, the only study I have seen indicates they do NOT work. And, if it did... it would seem logical that asthmatics would have really good aerobic capacity.

If the goal is to improve aerobic capacity, all training methods suggest training for endurance sports based predominately in an aerobic state.

Lung capacity and strength has little to do with this training process (unless you have some neurological issues with regard to breathing properly). In Simplistic terms, The key is making the oxygen you intake to be use more effectly and efficiently by the body. The body is more than able to take in enough oxygen for the body to use.

Swimming efficiency is based on 1) form and 2) strength in both physical and aerobic terms.

Breathing issues are particular to swimming and not so much with running and biking. This is because the ability to breath at will is somewhat limited... this is specially true for beginner swimmers. The idea of hypoxic swimming revolves around an old school mindset that deprivation of oxygen will teach the body to work in an anearobic state... which is not true. This is simular to saying that practicing crashing on the bike will make the body prepared for crashing in order to be a better biker. Not a good correlative factor to being a biker (or swimmer).

The optimal swimming form is when you can breath with a sense of normalacy and NOT loose form. This is why alternate breathing becomes a good part of the training process... not because it is good from an aerobic conditioning standpoint, but rather from a form/technique standpoint.

Alternate breathing is not a bad swimming drill nor should it be hypoxic in nature... but, it's just that...it's intended to improve form... not necessarilly improve aerobic conditioning. Breathing normally would be a better way to improve aerobic ability (simular to biking a running).

In short, hypoxic training has very little value (and, not to be confused with alternate breathing technique designed to improve swimming form)... I am sure there will those who had coaches who used this training method in the past... All I can say is that the only study I have seen in this says otherwise. Instead, what was really happening is they were just doing a modified version of interval training (and, not necessarilly resulting in the best swimming form either).

FWIW Joe Moya

Oh yea... as for the study I referenced above, here is all I could find now (I cut from an old post I made to my coach some time ago)...

=== snip ===

At any rate, this training method (i.e., oxigen deprivation/hypoxic training methods) didn't produce positive results in the study. To quote specifically, "Despite the name, there is no evidence that swimming without oxygen necessarily trains the anaerobic system. The anaerobic system is activated based upon the percentile of maximum exercise performance that is required and not the breathing pattern used. Extending the breathing pattern may improve oxygen management capacity. More simply stated, at what rate should the athlete exhale in a specific situation for the desired effect of fast swimming over short distances? Do any of these techniques carry over into longer events? It is very doubtful that they do, unless the brief hypoxia experienced during turns is considered."

see -- http://www.usa-swimming.org/search/power_search.pl?frmPageSearch=21 ...(*No longer an active sight).

Bottom line, I am aware a lot of swim coaches use this reduced breathing process (i.e., breathing every 2,3,4 ect. strokes) as a method to improve endurance. However, I know of no other sport that follows this protocol. I have never heard of nor been advised to hold my breath while biking or running. Which lead me to think why is this process of hypoxia considered acceptable in swimming. Well, I haven't found an answer to that question... but, I did find the study I noted above.

Edited by Joe M 2005-11-18 10:36 PM

"The "lung expanders" strengthen the respiratory muscles in the ribcage and the diaphragm."

Do you mean strengthen or to co-ordinate the muscular use? Co-ordination of Lung muscles is the biggest problem for those who have neurological disorders. The only studies I've seen relate to muscular coordination of breathing patterns and a device simular to the "lung expander" was used by individuals in a form of respiratory therapy for disorders that prevent breathing from happening normally. Or, in certain situations where the muscular control of the breathing requires very precise coordination to produce a specific sound by the vocal cords. In either case, was "lung muscles" strengthened... my guess is yes - to some degree. But, strength is not a relavent point. And, it's even a bigger stretch to equate this to aerobic improvement.

"... enables muscle to expand at slightly lower energy cost." How is that? ... muscular expansion and contraction is simply that... efficiency is determined by elements that are not dependent upon the contraction or expansion of the muscle. Energy cost is determined by efficiency of "oxidation". Aerobic conditioning is the key element of muscular endurance. Am I missing something here?

"sea level" and higher altitudes are enviromental differences that have little to do with lung strength or capacity.... altitude changes are mostly dependent upon body acclimatization, O2 levels and atmospheric pressure. As best I can tell, lung strength will have veiy little (if any effect). The last I looked, lung capacity is genetically determined.

I am not trying to be combative... I'm sure their may some annecdotal situations where something changed as a result of using a "lung expander"...but, I would prefer to read any study that indicated that "lung expanders" indicated a direct and significant correlative factor toward better aerobic conditioning. IMHO, do "lung expanders" work... well, if a .0001 percent improvement in only .0001 percent of the human population is improvement... then, I guess it might work (or be coincidence)... but, I am just not certain of this significantly good or bad aspects to the use of the "lung expanders". That being said, it also seems that simply sticking a straw in your mouth would work as well.

FWIW
Joe Moya

Edited by Joe M 2005-11-19 12:33 AM

Hi Joe,

Excellent post above. I agree with all your basic points.

The reference to the economy of respiratory muscles has not been tested (that I know of) swimming, but has been in both cycling and running. Stronger muscles require less energy to do work. At peak intensity, the respiratory muscles may account for up to 15% of energy exzpenditure. Research shows that developing these muscles allows them to move air into and out of the lungs with slightly less energy expenditure. The key word is slightly. This is a very, very small difference that is more useful in marketing than in racing.

I believe that sea-level athletes racing at altitude will gain from using devices that work the respiratory muscles, because sea level athletes are much more likely to be centrally limited when racing at altitude. The leg muscles are able to demand greater ventilation at altitude and, frequently, pain in the lungs and not the legs becomes the limiter. I'm not aware of research on this, but in my experience it does have value in this circumstance. This may or may not be entirely psychological, but it does seem to help.

Ken

I'm glad you asked this question. When my wife came home from the hospital after her C-section, they gave her a sort of breathing exercise device to help recovery. I have often wondered if it would be of any use to a healthy person.

That's more than likely an incentive spirometer. All it's used for is to encourage patients who are either post-op or mostly bed bound to take deep breaths to keep atelectasis (small pieces of collapsed lung) from occuring. It's got no use for healthy, active people.

"At peak intensity, the respiratory muscles may account for up to 15% of energy exzpenditure. Research shows that developing these muscles allows them to move air into and out of the lungs with slightly less energy expenditure."

That's very interesting... but, that leads me to think that if you are going to try and train the respiratory muscle system then you should do only that.... What I mean is this - wouldn't it make more sense to train this muscle groups in the same fashion as any other muscle group? By that I mean, not in a state of increasing demand of oxygen by the body (such as would be the case if running)... but, rather to use methods developed by opera singers to deveop better projection and control of breathing.

It sounds to me like training any muscle group is a process best done in the same atmosphere as you would to train any other muscle group.... i.e., in a state of increasing resistence in an environment that doesn't compromise this ability. Running with this device wouldn't fit into this idea of optimal development of a muscle group (unless there are particular resons why training respiratory muscles are different).

Good post... made me think.

FWIW Joe Moya

Hi Joe,

I agree. What I have used is a unit that has adjustable resistance for inhaling and for exhaling. It is intended to be used as weight training for the respiratory muscles not during aerobic workouts.

Ken

This is all GREAT information, guys (REALLY).

For me, though...I think I'll just run, bike, and swim...with my shorts, bike, swim suit, and goggles.

That's what I thought...

Perhaps the failure or success of the "lung expander" could be as dependent upon how it is used ... much less the fact that it may not work at all, have minimal effect or be very limited as to it's specific value.

Either way, there seems to be a lot of unknowns with this product. And, that's why I see a lot of skepticism when it comes to this product. Specially when the fundamental question is not answered... that being, How exactly do you strengthen lung muscles?

The assumption is that resistence of oxygen inhale/exhale is the method... but, I have never seen this to be a fact. Maybe a respiratory therapist could have an answer. However, the one I asked this question some time ago didn't have an answer since... as she seem to think Lung strength didn't make any significant impact on quality of health in normal circumstances. But, (she did also say) muscular coordination IS crucial. Of course, you need to realize she was describing this "lung strenghting idea" in terms of common health issues... she didn't put into a context of the abnormal demands of endurance sports.

Joe

Edited by Joe M 2005-11-19 6:14 PM

i was a two storke breather. never had air.. got a little btter when my coach made me switch to 4 stroke breath (1 arm = 1 stroke). of course on fri at masters i was freaking out that i would lackout and drown in our 4 ft pool...... oh swell. its like i saw, if your not drowning your not swimming correctly.