General Discussion Triathlon Talk » fat loss and replacement of calories burned Rss Feed  
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2006-02-19 7:49 PM

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molto veloce mama
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Subject: fat loss and replacement of calories burned
i know i've asked this before, but i searched the forums and can't seem to find the old thread.

figuring out the balance on heavy workout days is tough, especially when i feel hungry the next day. makes me wonder if i'm doing something wrong. since i'm on a reduced calorie diet, this is a big concern for me. i want to build muscle and lose fat, and i don't want to undereat or overeat.

i use a hrm as well as a calorie estimate from the diet tracking software i use. i've been replacing 25% of what i burn in a workout, but is that enough? too much?

for example, today i biked and ran. i wore the hrm for the bike, and it said i had burned 1626 calories. the calorie estimate from the software says 1254. didn't wear the hrm on the run, but the software says 836. so, lets say roughly 2000 calories burned. i usually consume 1750 calories on an average day. i add in 25% of the calories burned. so, today i consumed an extra 500+ calories to cover the 2000 i burned. is that enough?

i have searched all over the web for information on this, but most applies to calories replaced DURING the workout. on my run today i didn't comsume anything before or during, but did have a recovery drink (140, 5g protein, 31g carb) right after. on the bike, i had quite a bit of electrolyte drink (240, 58g carb - more than normal, because i was worried about dehydration with doubling up a longer run w/ a long trainer session), and again had some recovery drink afterwards (140, 5g protein, 31g carb). so, 520 calories (26%).


2006-02-20 1:23 PM
in reply to: #349580

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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned
I have this same problem and can't seem to lose weight which I really need to do. What softwar do you use and which hrm tracks calories burned? That might help me greatly.
Thanks,
writers2
2006-02-20 4:25 PM
in reply to: #350164

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molto veloce mama
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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned
i use calorie king, which i purchased and use on my computer at home (versus the online version). i really like it, but when you type in a workout, it calculates ALL the calories burned as calories that need to be replaced. so far, i've just been logging my workouts here, and adding in 25% of my time as workouts in calorie king (so a 60 minute run becomes a 15 minute run for calorie purposes).
2006-02-25 6:57 PM
in reply to: #349580

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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned
everything i have every read said that if you are trying to lose weight you should eat 500 less calories a day than you burn. That will be 1 lb a week of weight loss (3500 Kcal=1 lb).

you might try to up what you eat by a lot, for a round a week or two and see if that doesn't help with the wieghtloss. Your body will have to get used to it so you might gain a some weight in the begining. But stay true.

You body probably thinks you are starving it so it holds onto everything you give it. if it knows it is going to take in enough Kcals today than it can pick the ones it wants.


That is just my opinion and that which i have read. You might look at picking up Nancy Clark's sport nutrition book or any endurance nutrition book.

If you burnd 2000 kcal's + the 1750 (guess your BMR http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/)that is 3750 Kcals for the day. You are only putting 2250 back into it your body has to be running low on gas.
2006-02-25 9:13 PM
in reply to: #354479

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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned

rb85cj7 - 2006-02-25 5:57 PM  You body probably thinks you are starving it so it holds onto everything you give it. 

That does happen and you end up putting on fat and losing muscle.  I would try to focus on proper caloric intake surrounding exercise, meaning right before hand, during and recovery, and cut the calories out of your normal meals that really aren't tied into your workouts.  So still maintain 200 cal per hour while working out and have the proper recovery drink/meal, but then 4 hours later when you have lunch, cut your calories there 

2006-02-27 11:05 AM
in reply to: #349580

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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned

Also, note that most calorie-expenditure calculators tend to overestimate calories burned, some grossly so.  I have a Timex HRM, and even adjusting for my weight, it is way off in my opinion.  For example, for my 13k run this weekend, it said I burned around 1500 calories.  I don't think so!! 

 Might I suggest that you try just eating when you're hungry and stopping when you're full?  Our bodies are pretty smart, you know.



2006-02-28 2:22 PM
in reply to: #355376

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molto veloce mama
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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned
i wish it was that easy. anyone who has tried to lose weight can attest to how sometimes our bodies' signals can be counter productive to our overall health. for example, when i haven't had enough sleep, my body often responds with hunger. what my body really needs is sleep, but when i can't get that sleep, i get hungry. i don't really need the extra calories - i need a nap. with two little ones and a schedule that really varies, its easy for me to overeat and undereat. i've been tracking my calories for about a year, and i've been really surprised that i have both problems equally. somedays i snack often and can easily be over 3000 calories (especially on rest days and days when i'm feeling tried). other days, when we're really busy, i neglect to eat and can end up around 1000 calories (especially on heavy workout days, the worst days to be low). neither of these things are any good for training. my nutrition has been very important to me, not just for me, but because i've been breastfeeding for the last few years. my nutrition is also fi's nutrition (not so much now, but a year ago it certainly was). anyway, i wish it was as simple as just listening to my hunger cues, but at this point in my life, i need more structure to be sure my body is getting what it needs.
2006-02-28 3:43 PM
in reply to: #354479

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molto veloce mama
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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned
i've read the same thing. where i get confused it replacement after working out. most books and articles i read say to cut 500, and then to add more activity, but don't say if you should add additional calories when adding activity. i'm not just adding a walk around the block though - some of my workouts burn up to 2000 calories, so the question of how much of that to replace gets confusing. replacing all of it seems like a LOT of calories. so, 75% 50%? 25%? i've read you should replace all but what you would have burned anyway (for your regular activity level). just using the calculators is also confusing, since it give a general activity level. if i put in 'very active', which i am most days, then the number is much higher than on a moderate activity level day or rest day. so, it seems simpler to me to start with a base (probably 1600-1700), and replace calories according to the workouts for that specific day (and as matt said, replace much of them before, during, and after the workout, which i have been better about lately and it has made a difference in my energy level - especially recovery foods/drinks within 30 minutes of a workout).

right now if i calculate my calories by saying i'm in the 'very light to moderate activity' category (which is how i am when NOT workout out - walking, housework, chasing kids, etc.) i should be eating about 2100 calories a day to maintain my weight. a 500 calorie reduction brings me to around 1600 calories a day. this is about what i've been eating the last two months. what you're saying is that i should replace ALL of the calories i burn in workout out? that would put me at about 3100 calories for today (1500 for a run). even if i deduct what i would be burning during that time had i not been running (lets say 350 for some light housework and sitting on my tail reading stories to fi or checking email and bt - so, 1150 calories), the total is 2750. that seems like a LOT to me. today i did what i've been doing - adding 25% back in - so a total intake of about 2000 for the day.

SO, lets say every day was like today - assume i should be eating 2100 to maintain my weight 1600 to lose 1 lb a week. i burned 1150 extra calories from working out (1500 from running - 350 what i'd be doing instead), i should loose 2 lbs a week. if i deduct another 500 that would be a deficit of 1650. that same articles that say cut 500, also say don't cut more than 1000. if that applies to both calories in and calories burned from workouts, then i would be burning 650 over that max. hmmmm.

okay, so i think i have a plan, and let me know what you think:

1. have a base calorie intake (rest day activity level) of 1600. this is a 500 calorie deficit from my 'maintain weight' daily requirement of 2100. on a rest day, stay around 1600 calories.

2. for workout days, add in the calories burned during the workout (hrm seems high, so maybe get the number from calorie king, which tends to be a lower number - for example, 1500 today) MINUS the calories i'd be buring for the same time on a rest day (caloried burned sitting on my tush or light housework - for example, 350 for today). allow for up to 500 less than that total number (using today as an example - eating between 2250-2750 on a day like today, so a 500-1000 deficit total - but not going below a 1000 total deficit). as much as possible, get these extra calories in before, during, and after a workout, focusing on balanced foods.

3. cut out sugar and as much dairy as i can stand, to help with avoiding future colds (different subject, but a bit related to the above).

i will try this for the month of march and see what happens.
2006-02-28 4:11 PM
in reply to: #349580

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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned

Hey Autumn,

I appreciate the need for structure. :-)

Everything I have read that says to cut 500 calories from your diet ALSO says to burn 500 calories in activity, for a total daily caloric defecit of 1,000 calories.  The idea is that 1 lb of fat contains around 3,500 calories , so after 7 days on this regimen you should lose 2 lbs.  Hence, the 2 lbs per week of sustainable weight loss addage.  It's not that 2 lbs is some magical amount of fat loss that the body can sustain.  It's that a 1000 calorie defecit, with about 500 coming from reduced calorie intake and 500 coming from increased calorie burns, seems to be sustainable in terms of a lifestyle change.

 The point here is not the cutting 500 calories from your diet, but the overall daily defecit of 1000 calories.  That's what allows for fat loss.  So, assuming that your "normal" meals are exactly matched to your baseline metabolic calorie burn for the day, which would produce zero defecit, and you burn 2000 calories in your workouts, you would want to "replace" 1000 calories of what you burned to end up with a total overall caloric defecit of 1000 calories that day.  Of course, you would want to spread out your "make up" calories between workouts.  Other than that, I'm not sure it has to be very complicated.

 Am I making sense?

2006-02-28 4:24 PM
in reply to: #349580

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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned

Re-reading that last post, it doesn't even sound very clear to me!  Haha!  Here's an example of what I mean:

Say that the amount of calories you need to take in to maintain your weight (based on your activity level, excluding your workouts) is 2100 calories.  Say also that you have two workouts per day, a run that burns 500 calories and a ride that burns 1000. 

Calories in - calories out = caloric defecit

2100 (from meals) - 2100 (for baseline metabolic rate) - 1500 (from workouts) = -1500

So you'd have a 1500 calorie defecit.  Now, if you're shooting for a 1000 calorie defecit, that means you need to add back in 500 more calories to account for your workouts, for a total daily intake of 2600 calories.  Your day might look something like this:

Pre-run snack of 200 calories

Morning run, followed by breakfast of 400 calories

Lunch of 600 calories

Afternoon snack of 300 calories

Afternoon ride, taking in 200 calories while riding and 300 calories as a post-ride snack

 Dinner of 600 calories

 Of course, there are many other ways to get the calories in.  I'm just trying to give an example here of how you might add back in some calories burned in your workout to reach a total daily defecit of 1000 calories.

2006-02-28 5:24 PM
in reply to: #356983

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molto veloce mama
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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned
element - 2006-02-28 4:24 PM

Calories in - calories out = caloric defecit

2100 (from meals) - 2100 (for baseline metabolic rate) - 1500 (from workouts) = -1500

So you'd have a 1500 calorie defecit. Now, if you're shooting for a 1000 calorie defecit, that means you need to add back in 500 more



that's about what i came up with in a 'aha!' momen today (see above). -500 from calories daily, then make up all but 500 from any workouts (and subtracting for what i would have been doing otherwise, usually housework, playing with kids, or sitting reading or online), for a daily deficit of 1000 on workout days, and 500 on rest days. i think i'm going to try this new formula for march and see what happens. i spoke to my friend/tri coach today and she seemed to think i was probably not getting enough calories (she also gave me the 'trust your body' lecture ).


2006-02-28 6:19 PM
in reply to: #357036

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molto veloce mama
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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned
okay, believe it or not, i think this is going to simplify things for me. i actually wrote out a formula! this is what i've been looking for but have never found in all my looking. here is the formula i am going to try out for the month of march:

bmr + (calories burned for workout(s) - (alternative calorie burn(s) + 500)) = total daily intake

so, using today as an example...

my daily bmr + (calories burned on 9.5 mile run - (calories i would have burned putzing around the house during the time i was running + 500)) = my daily intake

OR

1521 + (1631 - (420 + 500)) = 1521 + (1631 - 711) = 1521 + 920 = 2441

today i actually took in an extra 630 calories aimed at my workout - a clif shot right before, electrolyte drink during, and a power bar and recovery drink after (i know, i know, kristi - no REAL food ). i wasn't able to take in all 920 during the run, but at least i took in well over half surrounding the activity itself.

SO, this means i should have a 500 calorie deficit on rest days, and up to 1000 calorie deficit on workout days. i'll also allow myself to fluctuate between 500-1000 on workout days, depending on how i feel.

of course, then i have to figure out the carb/protein thing too...but the way my nutrition program is set up, i can only set up daily values for my base level of calories. i altered them up a bit, based on the formulas in monique ryan's book (sports nutrition for endurance athletes) so it will look like this (may be hard to meet the carb/protein levels on a rest day, but will hopefully be right on for workout days): 1521 calories, 42.5g fat, 120g protein, 360g carb, 25g fiber
2006-02-28 7:13 PM
in reply to: #349580

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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned
i would like to add one things to your formula.

I would switch the days and have the -1000 on the rest days and -500 on the workout days. This will allow you to be more fully charged on workout days.

Just an idea.
2006-02-28 7:26 PM
in reply to: #357121

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molto veloce mama
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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned
good point. rest days are also recovery though, so i wouldn't want to be completely bare bones...plus, if i cut 1000 that would put me at about 1000 calories for rest days. on heavy workout days, i have a hard time eating all the calories with my current system (which usually doesn't put me past 2000 calories). i think i'll try it as is for a month and see how i feel.
2006-02-28 7:54 PM
in reply to: #349580

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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned
I have hard time keeping weight on ,but eating big breakfast and small meals keeps me going .i have cut dairy,wheat ,redmeat once a week ,lots of fish,and no soda.im trying to keep weight on but seem to stay the same,but have lots of energy.i work outside also so i burn megacals a day.i hope it helps .i would like to see how many i burn a day.
2006-02-28 8:40 PM
in reply to: #357133

Regular
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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned
didn't think abou the total only being 1000 for th whole day. I am a guy so mine would be around 1500 for the day on rest days and a little easier to do.

I think you are on the right track. Good luck with all that you are doing. i would love to hear the results at the end of March.

Keep us updated


2006-03-06 7:43 PM
in reply to: #357188

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Master
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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned
cannot work out how to attach a file on pm's so here you go autumn.

thanks



Attachments
----------------
for autumn.xls (37KB - 44 downloads)
2006-03-10 3:11 PM
in reply to: #349580

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Master
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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned
One question: How far at how fast do YOU have to bike to burn 1600 cals? Or is that combined for the days exercise? I am confused.

Also, not to confuse things more, but have you read about 'net calories?'

http://amos.indiana.edu/library/scripts/netcals.html
2006-03-10 4:13 PM
in reply to: #366700

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molto veloce mama
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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned
in general, i 've used a combination of my hrm (specific to me) and the totals from calorie king (averages). i usually use the totals from calorie king, because they tend to line up with the nbrs from my hrm, but also tend to be a bit lower, but i always compare the two since other conditions can come into play (wind, pushing a jogging stroller, pulling a burley, etc). i don't think either is completely accurate, but hopefully between the two i'm close.

as for net versus total, i always deduct the 'what would i have been doing anyway' calories from my total. i actually have a special 'housework, childcare, sitting on my tush' activity i can use as a way to easily figure out the calories i would have been burning anyway.

for example, today i walked for 30 minutes, swam for 30 minutes, and ran for 30 minutes.

my total burn was 985 calories = 148 walking, 394 swimming, and 443 running
for the same time span, i would have been burning 3 x 120 calories
985 - 360 = 625
625 - 500 (for a total of 1000 calorie deficit) = 125

so, my calories for today are: 1521 (this already includes a 500 calorie deficit) + 125 = 1646

i give myself a bit of freedom with that second 500 calorie deduction. if i'm feeling hungry, or know i'll have some really hard workouts the next day, i will eat into that second 500. so, even if i added 500, taking in a total of 2146, i would still have a 500 calorie deficit for the whole day. if i feel fine, or know i have a rest day the next day, i've tried to stick with the 1000 calorie deficit.

the other day when i ran 6 miles and then biked almost 15 miles pulling the girls, i had nearly a 1500 calorie deficit for the entire day. i was too tired to stay up just to eat.
2006-03-10 4:15 PM
in reply to: #357149

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molto veloce mama
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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned
oh, and here is the bike workout i refered to in my original post (burning 1600+ calories, according to the hrm):

1h 25m 23s 24.00 miles 16.80 miles/hr
Min HR: 84
Avg HR: 157
Max HR: 186

had planned 90 min main set, but stuck to 60 mins since i'd already run today.

20:00 warm up
5:00 easy @ 90+ rpm (146)
5:00 alt :30 @ 100 rpm, :30 @ 80 rpm (163)
10:00 easy 95+ rpm (163)

60:00 main set
85-95 rpm. every 5 mins did a :30 spin up and :30 sustained sprint.
1st 30:00 ahr 161
2nd 30:00 ahr 154

5:22 cool-down 146
2006-03-10 9:57 PM
in reply to: #349580

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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned
I don't know if this will be any help, but I posted this on another thread, take from it what you may

My fiance, who is getting her masters in nutrition and her RD. She along with other nutrition Professors and RD's at Iowa State have been working on a sports nutrition website. I have not really looked through it yet but I will post a link, maybe it has something you can use.

http://www.extension.iastate.edu/nutrition/sport/


2006-04-10 12:47 PM
in reply to: #349580

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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned

Autumn,

Any luck with your formula?

Also, I've been reading sports nutrition for endurance athletes (which you mentioned in an earlier post about balancing nutrition) and discovered the same thing you did about carbs...depending on the workout, I should be getting anywhere from 344 g carbs to 688 g carbs. Whoa...seems like alot. Are you working on incorporating more carbs as well?

I'm where you were in January with trying to figure out my nutrition!

2006-05-16 10:06 AM
in reply to: #349580

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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned
Interesting discussion here.
I would like to either prove or disprove something along the same lines. Bear with me.

I've been working out steadily over this spring, ramping up my workouts, my speed, and my overall volume right? I feel I've been doing very well. Eating well, eating right, getting rest when I need it. Yet recently over the last week and a half I've been feeling a) very fatigued (haven't been getting workouts in), and b) very hungry. Is this some sort of metabolic mechanism (especially in regards women) to force a body that is quickly losing body fat and adding muscle, to guard itself? That is to say, to regulate what the body thinks is wrong and off balance? Thereby forcing the body to put fat back on and force rest?

Any experiences like this out there?
2006-05-16 10:39 AM
in reply to: #425020

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Master
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Subject: RE: fat loss and replacement of calories burned
Is this some sort of metabolic mechanism (especially in regards women) to force a body that is quickly losing body fat and adding muscle, to guard itself?



Well, for one, it is EXTREMELY hard to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. In order to gain muscle you need a calorie surplus -- to lose fat you need a calorie deficit -- and never the twain shall meet.

Some noobs (not saying you are one) WILL see an increase in strength initially when beginning a resistance program. This won't last forever though.

The body resists building muscle as it is calorically expensive to maintain (i.e., your body would rather use less calories and stay static). Training for endurance sports is especially tough on gaining and keeping muscle (esp. upper body).

If you're hungrier, eat more veggies and fruit!!!


Keep it up!!!

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