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2013-11-11 5:25 PM
in reply to: pschriver


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Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?
Sure. The article the guy was speaking of is

Effects of Electrical Muscle Stimulation on Body
Composition, Muscle Strength, and Physical
Appearance

Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 2002

And yes if you read the experiment(and dodge the heavy medical terms) it will all in all say their research failed. No significant muscle gains were made in their training period. But the equipment was not even sticky pads like the guy originally asked about at the top of this post, which are new and work great I have some myself. The equipment in the experiment was held on with velcro straps. This is directly from the article conclusion.

"Additionally, applying the electrodes to the
different body parts was problematic and frustrating
using the Velcro straps provided with the stimulators." Pg.172

Also noted in the article that the users controlled the level on electricity, which depending on your true goal will be how hard you push. What I am saying is if you are running for an experiment you were paid to participate in are you going to push yourself through that burn like you would wanting to make real gains for yourself? The equipment was uncomfortable, and the patients were in control.

"Subjects
tolerated EMS amplitudes that produced discomfort
but still were not able to achieve a muscular contraction
of sufficient intensity to induce strength gains." Page. 172

Now I will use a quote from http://www.medword.com/MedwordStore/PCP/EMS_truth.html
and while I know they sell these same units off their site and would have a bias opinion. This is a comment from a trainer.

"Crank It Up
Most users never come near the level of contraction they need for best results, especially in clinical settings. To understand the intensity the athlete needs to experience, have him contract the quads as hard as he possibly can voluntarily, and then have him imagine a goal 30% higher than that! The contraction is massive, and it feels that way! Don't worry about "burning" the muscle though, as it takes only five-millionths of an amp to maximally contract the quad.
To give you an example of what I mean by cranking it up, my athletes would often have to bite down on a piece of leather or a stick while being "stimmed". Is it really that painful? Well, it should feel like riding up a very steep and long hill on a bike. That's the type of "burn" you should feel."

So of course we will not be pushing ourselves that hard, but this does show intensity does matter. And to further back my point on the poor quality of these devices used in the study here is another quote from the study.

"A second factor was the poor quality of the stimulators
used. The units did not have the ability to alter
the phase duration of the pulsed waveform. They delivered
a stimulus with a relatively long pulse duration,
making the stimulation quite uncomfortable. In
addition, most commercially available medical-grade
stimulators have a ramp function that allows the amplitude
to gradually increase each time the unit cycles
on, thus increasing the comfort of the electrical stimulation.
The long phase duration coupled with the lack
of a ramp function may not have allowed the subjects
to increase the amplitude of the stimulation to the critical
threshold required to achieve a strong motor contraction." Pg.171

So when quoting a study to try and tell people what to do, especially when it comes to their body, please read the entire article so you can give a better representation of what happened. The device "slendertone" has 6 different work outs, and as long as you maintain the pads(i bought the tube of gel) and keep them clean(wipe skin with rubbing alcohol) they are very comfortable and give me very very very sore muscles. Please read the research done on the website I posted, I found it up to date with the current devices and it teaches you about how it activates the fibers backwards and the benefits of doings so. All in all this argument is for the strength gain part, besides that I get great use for any injury or just an after work out massage. Has even shown to increase HGH release.

If you find errors in my findings PLEASE tell me, I am only 23 and have not spent too much time researching the items. The data is hard to see through because there are two opposing sides here trying to keep these off the market and on the market.

They will not help for fat burn.

Hope I helped =)

Grant



2013-11-11 5:46 PM
in reply to: IamOP3410

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Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?
Originally posted by IamOP3410

I read the same experiment I guess you did not want to point out the end result, or how old this is, or the fact they didn't even sticky pads it was held on with velcro. These can build strength, they are also great for light use to increase blood flow, which also greatly increases heal time. Don't just post research and act like you know what your talking about I have that whole pdf on my desktop.


Even if you do know what you are talking about, this post seems to be overly negative and if you want others to give consideration to your posts, perhaps a different tone would serve you better.

Shane
2013-11-11 7:18 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod


10

Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?
Point taken, I felt a pretty negative tone from a lot of people in response to some ones question. I do not find it fair that some one who was generally looking for some good information was told what the deal was, and how ineffective his future efforts would be. Especially on such a new subject. I apologize if I came off harshly, though all the earlier posts did upset me. For some one like me who does research, and likes to experiment with new things. This thread seemed to attack the idea of EMS, and the idea that further positive research could be found. Maybe the idea that something could give good work out results with out the previously needed effort bothered the overall users of this website.

Though this information is for the benefit of the users. When some one asks a question, unless you know, be sure to state that this is your own opinion, or back your facts with evidence. I hope the person who started this thread did not get discouraged and was able to enjoy the EMS device as much as I have.


Best Regards,
Grant




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2013-11-12 2:10 AM
in reply to: timf79

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Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?
I had it done after I had a little bike vs. car encounter on the wrong end of the coin. Although my leg still hurts it did help a lot, and the chiropractor said the leg would hurt and then one day I'd wake up and notice it didn't hurt anymore, that just activity will help it with the scar tissue and all that (and I mean I just spent six hours on Monday being active).
2013-11-12 11:57 AM
in reply to: GatorDeb

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Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?
I just picked up one of the Compex Performence US Units, and have used it for a few days. The main reason for purchasing was the “Active Recovery” functionality of the device in order to help lessen the impacts of lactic acid. I have run the endurance and strength programs through the unit as well, and do notice an effect from all of them. While I think it is too early to definitively say that the Active Recovery program greatly reduces lactic acid, I have noticed muscle fatigue from the endurance and strength programs, and while they are not a 100% one-for-one substitute for biking/lifting, there is a benefit that is being delivered.

While I am not in the "Everyone must have one" camp yet, I will say that I am definately NOT in the "They don't work" camp

I plan on using the device regularly (5x/wk+) and will hopefully have more personal results to share at a later point
2013-11-12 3:52 PM
in reply to: IamOP3410

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Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?
Originally posted by IamOP3410

Point taken, I felt a pretty negative tone from a lot of people in response to some ones question. I do not find it fair that some one who was generally looking for some good information was told what the deal was, and how ineffective his future efforts would be. Especially on such a new subject. I apologize if I came off harshly, though all the earlier posts did upset me. For some one like me who does research, and likes to experiment with new things. This thread seemed to attack the idea of EMS, and the idea that further positive research could be found. Maybe the idea that something could give good work out results with out the previously needed effort bothered the overall users of this website.

Though this information is for the benefit of the users. When some one asks a question, unless you know, be sure to state that this is your own opinion, or back your facts with evidence. I hope the person who started this thread did not get discouraged and was able to enjoy the EMS device as much as I have.


Best Regards,
Grant




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FYI
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I won't comment on the efficacy of EMS, but it certainly isn't "new" the technology has been around since the early 1970s. I also disagree about the "negative" tones of the responses. The original poster was wondering if there was a benefit to using the EMS machine, and several people responded with opinions that it doesn't work and then provided sources to back up their assertion.


2013-11-12 5:17 PM
in reply to: IamOP3410

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Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?
Originally posted by IamOP3410


If you find errors in my findings PLEASE tell me, I am only 23 and have not spent too much time researching the items. The data is hard to see through because there are two opposing sides here trying to keep these off the market and on the market.



Wow Grant. For someone who hasn't spent too much time researching these, you sure are passionate about them. You seem almost personally offended by some of the posts. I hope you're successful in whatever you're trying to sell, man.
2013-11-17 1:40 PM
in reply to: julio26pt2


10

Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?
Hmmmm....I am passionate about helping people. I do tech support and go to school right now I am 23. I sell nothing. Sorry I do not fit with your paradigm. Some people just care, not everyone is blinded by money sir.


Best Regards,

Grant
2013-11-17 1:42 PM
in reply to: JZig


10

Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?
Lets not worry so much about feelings here, we are trying to get a point across to help people.
2013-11-17 1:48 PM
in reply to: IamOP3410

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Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?
Originally posted by IamOP3410

Lets not worry so much about feelings here, we are trying to get a point across to help people.


OK.. now I'm wondering if you're a forum posting robot, sent from the present to sell muscle stimulators.
2013-11-17 3:27 PM
in reply to: JZig


10

Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?
Well for people to go to that much effort, it must be a really great product. =)


2013-11-17 8:56 PM
in reply to: IamOP3410

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Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?
For all of those who are saying they don't work, I have one question - are you quoting direct results from your own experiences or secondhand information (at best)?

Sometimes I feel people are too quick to dismiss something that doesn't fit within their knowledge base or comfort level. For those of you who are chiming in without first hand knowledge, I challenge you to purchase one, try it out, and if you still feel that it has zero benefits, then return it. I believe shopcompex.com will accept returns for up to 90 days



Ben
2013-11-17 9:15 PM
in reply to: benihana

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Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?
Originally posted by benihana

For all of those who are saying they don't work, I have one question - are you quoting direct results from your own experiences or secondhand information (at best)?

Sometimes I feel people are too quick to dismiss something that doesn't fit within their knowledge base or comfort level. For those of you who are chiming in without first hand knowledge, I challenge you to purchase one, try it out, and if you still feel that it has zero benefits, then return it. I believe shopcompex.com will accept returns for up to 90 days



Ben


Very poor logic.

Sometimes "it is better to stand on the shoulders of giants than to repeat the mistakes of others".

I'm embarrassed to admit I bought one of these devices and used it religiously for months. I had zero results, and by the time I figured out it was worthless, I would have gotten very little in return plus lost shipping and "handling" charges. If somebody wants to try it, great, if it works for them, great. Do I think it works, no. Do I think it works from personal experience, no. Is there scientific evidence to prove it works, not that I am aware of. Explaining why a study is flawed when it shows a product is ineffective is not evidence. Buyer beware
2013-11-18 2:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?
Originally posted by IamOP3410

Well for people to go to that much effort, it must be a really great product. =)


They go through tons of effort and money to sell cigarettes but that doesn't make it a good product Effort doesn't always equal quality.

My statement about quality has nothing to do with EMS working or not since I have no idea just that to say if someone put in effort doesn't mean something is good.

Edited by Burd 2013-11-18 2:36 PM
2013-11-18 5:07 PM
in reply to: pschriver


10

Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?
hm well i said pretty clear that they are designed for healing and that strength gains hurt and burn just like normal. They reverse the order of how the muscle fiber's activate. Also they cause the muscle to tense, so the muscle is still doing the work but it does not wear down the central nervous system. What I mean is that its not actually flexing your muscles, its just telling them to. Which means your still doing the work. I find it strange the strong negativity of anything new, people beware! lol
2013-11-18 5:08 PM
in reply to: Burd


10

Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?
Originally posted by Burd

Originally posted by IamOP3410

Well for people to go to that much effort, it must be a really great product. =)


They go through tons of effort and money to sell cigarettes but that doesn't make it a good product Effort doesn't always equal quality.

My statement about quality has nothing to do with EMS working or not since I have no idea just that to say if someone put in effort doesn't mean something is good.


the guy was talking about coming from the future............lol it was a joke.


2013-11-22 11:12 AM
in reply to: IamOP3410

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Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?
2013-11-22 3:52 PM
in reply to: benihana

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Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?
Originally posted by benihana

I found this and thought it was interesting

https://wiki.engr.illinois.edu/display/BIOE414/Effectiveness+of+Elec...





I skipped down to the section about athletic improvment which has the following conclusion:


EMS training cannot improve sport-specific skills or activities like sprinting that require numerous muscle groups.




Although they did see improvement in specific exercises in two seperate studies. I'm thinking endurance events falls into the category of "no improvement" both becausethey arent especially strength driven and because SBR all involve "numerous" muscle groups.
2013-11-23 7:28 AM
in reply to: JeffY

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Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?

Originally posted by JeffY

timf79 - 2012-10-25 11:31 AM Is a 'hard bender' a bad accident?

Nope, he drinks way too much, then pukes violently and the puking left his abs sore.

 

I think violent puking would be more beneficial than EMS... more muscle activation and uses nerve fibers to enhance recruitment. That's a good kinda sore as long is it doesn't limit/prevent training the next day.

2013-11-23 8:01 AM
in reply to: IamOP3410

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Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?

Originally posted by IamOP3410 hm well i said pretty clear that they are designed for healing and that strength gains hurt and burn just like normal. They reverse the order of how the muscle fiber's activate. Also they cause the muscle to tense, so the muscle is still doing the work but it does not wear down the central nervous system. What I mean is that its not actually flexing your muscles, its just telling them to. Which means your still doing the work. I find it strange the strong negativity of anything new, people beware! lol

I'm a little confused by the science here... What exactly do you mean by "They reverse the order of how the muscle fiber's activate"? As I understand it, when we "tell" a muscle to contract, it doesn't usually maximally contract right away (even if we know we need maximal effort), but as the body/muscle recognizes the load, that more and more muscle fibers are recruited to try to achieve the goal (or fail while trying). This is called recruitment. Part of the reason people seem to make the most significant gains when starting a new strength training regiment in the first few weeks is due to this activating neural network expanding to enhance recruitment, rather than actual new muscle mass being built alone. Are you saying that the EMS is maximally activating all of the fibers due to how the muscle is stimulated? 

Also, not exactly sure where the concern for wearing down the CNS comes from (and I'm not trying to shout you down here, i just want to understand what you're saying). The CNS doesn't wear down...the muscles do.

2013-11-23 3:40 PM
in reply to: rdailey1


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Subject: RE: Does Electronic Muscle Stimulation (EMS) bring a benefit?
You dont think your central nervous system wears down? hmmm get back to me on that.


The order of your fast twitch and slow twitch changes. Does that make more sense? Look it up.


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