General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Speed Wobble Rss Feed  
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2013-04-08 12:10 PM

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Somewhere training in Rocklin, CA
Subject: Speed Wobble
During my 56 mi training ride yesterday we came to the 2 mile downhill that we call the widow maker and always debate whether we could apply enough brake to stop in case of emergency. I've ridden it a number of times and never had a problem up to about 40mph. Yesterday I'm riding my Felt DA 4 with Flo 60/90 and according to my Garmin doing 34 mph on the aero bars when I catch a wind gust and thinking it might be in my best interest I come off the bars and the front wheel starts going crazy. Front is going side to side, rear starts to shimmy as well. I'm thinking I have a flat and try to break to a stop. After what seemed like a min but was probably only seconds I get the bike under 20 mph and the front stops oscillating back and forth. Finally get the bike to a stop, yes it can be done on this hill, and check everything. No flat, no broken spoke, skewer is firm. Nerves are shot, training partner behind me thought I was done for. I've heard of this happening but never thought it would to me....lesson learned, it can, even at only 34 mph given the right set of circumstances. Slow twitch advice is to loosen up your grip on the bars and get off the seat as this serves as the anchor point for the oscillation. Too much tire pressure can also be a factor. Hope this helps the next unexpecting rider to avoid what could have been a disaster.


2013-04-08 12:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Speed Wobble
2013-04-08 12:50 PM
in reply to: #4691557

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Greenville, SC
Subject: RE: Speed Wobble
holy crap...that video in that link was nuts!!! 
2013-04-08 1:03 PM
in reply to: #4691557

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Expert
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Floriduh
Subject: RE: Speed Wobble
As someone who has gone over the bars 2 times (and don't wanna any more), I would absolutely cr@p my pants if that happened to me.
2013-04-08 2:13 PM
in reply to: #4691557

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Champion
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Tacoma, Washington
Subject: RE: Speed Wobble

Can also try these:

* Put more weight on the front wheel.

* Clamp the top tube between your knees.

* Pedal faster to get through the harmonic.

Every bike has natural harmonics (frequencies at which it'll go into a seemingly undamped oscillation), but most of them will occur at frequencies you won't see on the road. Other culprits can be:

* A loose headset.

* A tire not straight on the rim.

* A flexy fork (this happened to me -- swapped fork and it's never happened again).

2013-04-08 5:33 PM
in reply to: #4691557

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Pro
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Bellingham, WA
Subject: RE: Speed Wobble
It's only happened to me a few times and since I'm too old to hurt myself I rarely go faster than 30-35 even if it means riding the brakes pretty hard.  I have to hand it to the rider in that video as he obviously knows what he is doing.


2013-04-08 5:39 PM
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Sensei
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Subject: RE: Speed Wobble

Was it just me, or did the video tie anyone else' stomach into knots?

2013-04-08 6:02 PM
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Citrus Heights
Subject: RE: Speed Wobble

Captain Morgan - 2013-04-08 10:10 AM During my 56 mi training ride yesterday we came to the 2 mile downhill that we call the widow maker and always debate whether we could apply enough brake to stop in case of emergency. I've ridden it a number of times and never had a problem up to about 40mph.

I'm in Citrus Heights...just curious where your "Widow Maker" hill is?  Glad to hear you made it out alive... Cool

2013-04-08 6:09 PM
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Master
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North edge of nowhere
Subject: RE: Speed Wobble

I've had it happen once on my Trek and once on my BMW (motorcycle). The motorcycle instance ended with my first and only crash (thankfully relatively minor). The one time on my Madone was not fun, but I think what you describe was worse than what I had.

I've also watched one of the guys I work with experience it twice now. Once was in a group ride last Thursday. Everyone around him scattered to get away from the impending crash that didn't happen. Someone said it looked like his hub was loose, but I didn't think so.

I've not watched the linked video. I figure seeing it first-hand a few times now is more than enough for me.

2013-04-08 10:13 PM
in reply to: #4692180

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Somewhere training in Rocklin, CA
Subject: RE: Speed Wobble
It's the last climb/desent in and out of the south part of Auburn on Auburn Folsom Road from Indian Hill down to the Shirland Tract corner. Strangely enough if you look on YouTube there is an "Auburn Folsom Road Speed Wobble" video (http://youtu.be/QIcxgj_DGEk) in the exact spot mine occurred. We ride from the Rancho Cordova Fish Hatchery to Beal's Point then up to King Rd across to Loomis, then to Old Town Auburn and loop around coming down Auburn Folsom. Tough ride that I used to look forward to this long descent, but will do so a bit more cautiously in the future.
2013-04-08 10:34 PM
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Pittsburgh, PA
Subject: RE: Speed Wobble

I never would have imagined this could happen.

Does it only happen in high-speed descents (over 30-35 mph)?  And does it usually start when you change position (like you got out of aero, or if on a road bike you move from the hoods to the drops)?

ETA:  Thanks for sharing this, and glad you came out of it unscathed!



Edited by chayes 2013-04-08 10:35 PM


2013-04-08 11:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Speed Wobble

I was doing a ride up in Truckee (267 down towards Northstar) and got into a high speed wobble at ~ 53 mph (according to my Garmin),  I don't know how I survived but everything on the bike checked out fine.

So now I do way more braking and I'm concerned about ruining the brakes,  any idea if long braking will wreck anything?

2013-04-09 12:10 AM
in reply to: #4692512

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Speed Wobble
I would crash for sure.  I never go fast enough for this to happen!
2013-04-09 10:15 AM
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Somewhere training in Rocklin, CA
Subject: RE: Speed Wobble
Below is a post from Slow Twitch on the subject that seems fairly well informed. The Hwy 267 n. Shore Rd is definitely another long descent that I'd be more conservative on...it also happens to be part of the IM Lake Tahoe that will be descended twice. Will be interesting to see if there are any shimmy post race reports where everyone will be going all out race speed...Re: High Speed Wobble w/Aero Wheels [tritiger] [In reply to] Quote | ReplySPEED WOBBLE When a customer brings his bike into his LBS and complains of speed wobble (death wobble, front-end shimmy) often the typical bike shop mechanic immediately starts farting around with the headset adjustment. There is no adjustment problem, nor are the wheel bearings loose, and in fact it is most likely that nothing is wrong at all. Speed wobble is just an inherent "flaw" of bicycles. Bicycle frames are amazingly stiff and strong in a vertical plane, but horizontally they are not. They are like ladders, and when you stand on a ladder it is strong, but when you and a friend stand a distance apart, each of you grasping one end of the ladder, and you twist, the weakness of the ladder is apparent. In that same way, when a bicycle is moving in a line straight ahead, and gyroscopic effects of the wheels weigh on a unit as elastic as a bicycle frame—with its fork and wheels—you might get shimmy. Shimmy occurs at a certain speed, depending on the bike and the rider. I have heard it said that every bicycle is prone, depending on its geometry, materials, and rider position, a particular resonant frequency, at which the bicycle oscillates. All that occurs when a given speed is reached on a descent. The shimmy will stop if the rider unloads the saddle, because the mass of the rider is the anchor about which the oscillation operates. It may also be helpful to place the inside of your leg against the top tube on a descent when you experience a shimmy. Certain elements will make the bicycle more prone to oscillation. All other things equal, those elements that render the bike more elastic will aid in its ability to shimmy. Therefore, a longer head tube will make the bike more likely to shimmy. Lighter, thinner tubes will make the bike more prone to shimmy. I suspect that shimmy might be more prominent now than in days past because bikes are so light, and their components somewhat more susceptible to lateral flex. Shimmy is more likely in cold conditions, or when a rider is nervous and grips hard on the bars, because the vibration of a shivering rider is roughly similar to that of a frame's shimmy frequency, and this can help bring on the shimmy. Therefore, while speed wobble is disconcerting, if you can adopt the habit of unweighting the saddle during a long, straight descent any shimmy problem should be largely abated.- Dan Empfield, here quoted. I've lowered my aerobars, thus shortening the effective head tube height. Seems to help a bit. I may go lower at MT because I'll be spending quite a bit of time climbing anyway. At least I hope I'm climbing and not stopped!
2013-04-09 11:44 AM
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The Heeb, UT
Subject: RE: Speed Wobble

x2 on the advice to brace your top tube with your leg. 

I used to ride a very small S-Works E5 with a long, low stem.  Best descending bike I've ever ridden.  My newer bike (Scott CR-1) has less aggressive geometry to accommodate my back issues, which means less weight over the front tire.  On my first few rides, I found that descending at 45+ tends to make the front end feel 'floaty', and have felt the beginning of an oscillation in the presence of a crosswind.  Since then, I've taken to proactively pressuring the top tube with my left leg on fast descents, and focusing on getting lower (and thus, applying more weight to the front wheel).  These two activities have substantially reduced the floating sensation, and have completely eliminated the onset of a wobble.

One other thing to consider would be lowering your bar/stem (within the realm of a good fit) if possible.  A single spacer can impact your weight distribution more than you would imagine.

 

SYJ

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