Carbon Carbon Carbon (Page 3)

 Okay well I think we bashed out the road bike features.... and I assume (probabaly incorrectly) the materials are going to be the same between a tri bike, and a road bike. Just the tri bike is more aerodynamic, etc, etc, etc. For example, a carbon Tri and a carbon road are similar in handling/ preformance, shock (respectively). Am I wrong on this?

Now... what's the real benifit to Tri frames vs. Road Frames? This is another difficutly I have ran into. As I said before, I am looking for something that will get me the BEST bang for my buck. Tri bikes are considerably more expensive (although Felt is VERY attractive.), then road bikes. Road carbon frames, for example, start about $1300 on up... TRI bikes won't start hitting carbon until you get to about 2100 and up. For that seven hundred dollar difference, I could get some Maverik wheels (or the like), and an areo bar, and as I would guess.. have a better bike than a standalone BASIC tri bike. How much of a difference does it make forking out the money for a TRI-frame? Is there a downfall (like we have discussed with  carbon... loss of flexibility, possibility of failure.)

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/bikes/difference.shtml

Don't have any experience with that style and I haven't done much research into them.  The only things I know are that some of them are sensitive to irregular pedal stroke (they bounce) and some of the carbon softrides are prone to cracking where the beam hits the down tube.

I know they discuss them a lot on slow twitch, so you might search around over there.

edit:  looked up boron fiber, from my limited search, this is what I found:

In composite materials there are two different stiffness to consider: tensile and compression.  Carbon fiber has very high tensile stiffness, and lesser compressional stiffness, while Boron Fiber is much more comressionally stiff then tensiley (is that a word??) stiff.  By mixing the two together, you get greater control over how the frame behaves to different loads.  Boron fiber is also much more rugged, so you can lay it over carbon as a sort of flak jacket to reduce the chance of something gouging the carbon and starting a failure point.

Looks like Trek has started using Boron fiber in their Madonne line in the bottom bracket to enhance stiffness and protection. (insert viagra joke here)

The thing to remember is that all carbon, all aluminum and all Ti frames are not created equal.

There are lugged carbon frames vs monocoque carbon frames (both carbon but both quite different).  lugged carbon frames are easier to fix cracks, monocoque you just throw it away when it cracks.  trouble with lugged carbon is that there is less vibration damping and people might go lugged if they can't afford Ti and want the repairability of lugged carbon frames.  Guru makes a Ti lugged carbon frame that caught my eye, but when I road it, the Ti luggs still didn't give it the aluminum springyness I grew to love.

There are different ways to layup the carbon frame (resin it in the center or full layup around the tubing).

For TI frames there are 3AI/2.5V vs. 6AI/4V.  The 3AI material is stiffer (less vibration damping) and more inexpensive than that 6AI material, which has more vibration damping characteristics and is more expensive.  The chaper-end Ti bikes are 100% 3AI while the top end Ti bikes have a combination of both materials to effectuate maximum vibration damping while allowing optimal power transfer through frame stiffness where it's needed.

Keep in mind that if someone says "our carbon frames are handmade" is kind of silly because it's incredibly ineffective to make a carbon frame without humans laying up the carbon.  If you ever come across a company that avoids the "handmade" question or actually admits they are not handmade...run for the hills because that carbon frame is crapola.

To have a machine-made carbon frame can be descibed I guess as like having a machine peel a hardboiled egg.  Accuracy, proper alignment, and skill is required to make a carbon frame that will withstand "every day" useage.  (I guess the egg example isn't that descriptive...sorry)

Keep in mind that all Ti frames are NOT created equal.  The way a builder works the Ti in the manufacturing process of creating the tubes will dramatically affect the ride quality, responsiveness, and weight of the bike.  Buying a Ti frame from Airborne vs Litespeed is like buying a computer from Krex vs IBM....if that makes any sense.

Just because both companies use the same Ti material, the way the work the material into the frame shape and the tubes shapes of the Ti make a big difference.

You can ride a Ti bike that rides like a sponge (the biggest complaint you'll hear from non-Ti loving folks) or you can ride a Ti bike that absorbs like carbon but responds like alumninum (what you'll hear from big Ti advocates)...which is what my Tiphoon rides like.

As an interesting and coincidental aside, there's an article over on the Speed Channel website talking about the rash of major mechanical & suspension failures in the Champ Car World Series this season - they speculate that it may well be related to aging of the six-year-old Lola carbon fiber chassis that is the spec car for the series. 

All of the pro race teams track the duty cycle of the critical parts and replace them at regular set intervals, but it appears that some of the replacement carbon pieces that were manufactured several years ago may not be aging well.  Fortunately the series has a new spec chassis in development that should be ready next year.

Mark