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2013-08-15 9:31 AM

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Subject: (marathon training) long run

I got this email from McMillan running, and was wondering if anyone does any of these "types" of long runs. I'm currently at week 5 of Higdon's advanced plan, and think incorporating some of these into my long runs would help. thoughts?

 

Long and Steady: Lydiard's Tried-and-True Long Run
The tried and true long run for the last 50 years has been Arthur Lydiard's long, steady run. Lydiard found that by running for 2 to 3 hours at an easy, yet steady pace (preferably over a hilly route), the body and mind developed the endurance to withstand the race-specific workouts in the rest of a marathon training plan. Perform several of these long runs in your plan, particularly in the early stages of your training.


Long Run with Surges: Squires' Boston Beater
A unique aspect to legendary coach Bill Squires' marathon long runs is that they include surges. On nearly every other long run throughout your plan, he suggests you throw in "surges" every 10 minutes. These surges may last only 30 seconds or up to 10-12 minutes, and the pace varies based on the duration of the surge. Athletes find that surges help avoid boredom and provide a faster average pace across the long run.

Fast-Finish Long Run: Rosa's Way to the Winner's Circle
With his athletes winning every major marathon on the planet (multiple times in fact), it's no wonder that Gabriele Rosa's training is influential. A unique aspect of Rosa's plan is to finish the last few miles of the long run fast. "Fast" means pushing the pace for the last 4 to 8 miles, but also running the last 10 minutes as fast as possible. This "emptying the tank" long run is quickly becoming a staple in the marathon plans of elite and competitive distance runners like you. It's likely one of the most challenging long runs you will do, but the benefits are worth the effort.


Long Run at Marathon Race Pace: Pfitz's Advanced Marathon Long Run
Specificity is a crucial concept in marathoning. While the long run is the most specific in terms of duration, it's also important to practice your goal marathon race pace within the long run. Pete Pfitzinger advises a couple of long runs where you run 12 to 15 miles of your total long run at your goal marathon pace. An example would be a total long run of 20 miles with 12 miles in the middle at goal marathon pace. This type of long run is great for faster marathoners who typically run their long runs slower than their marathon pace. For slower marathoners who typically run at marathon race pace or faster for their normal long runs we suggest doing this type of run at your Steady State Pace.


Pace-Change Long Run: Variety in Pace Gets You Ready to Race
Athletes in championship marathons like the Olympics must practice changing their pace, because rarely are these events run at an even pace. Run like the Olympians by alternating a faster-than-marathon-pace mile with a slower-than-marathon-pace mile. For example, if your goal marathon pace is 8:00 per mile, then a pace change long run should include 20 total miles with 8 miles in the middle of the run alternating between 7:45 pace and 8:45 pace. As your marathon approaches, you may even be able to alternate between 7:45 pace and 8:15 pace. This is a very tough long run, but is great for marathoners who expect to need to "change gears" throughout the race due to tactics or terrain.



2013-08-15 10:03 AM
in reply to: trishie

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2013-08-15 10:05 AM
in reply to: trishie


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Subject: RE: (marathon training) long run
It really depends on what your other runs are like and how much mileage you are doing. I wouldn't stray from the program unless you are only using Higdon's plan as a rough guide. Higdon's plan has speed work and pace runs; the long runs are supposed to be relaxed pace. If you incorporate speed work into your long runs (other than what the plan has) then you may be overloading with too much fast running.
2013-08-15 11:43 AM
in reply to: trishie

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Subject: RE: (marathon training) long run
I'm not a huge fan of mixing and matching if you've already got a plan you're working with. However, I've done pretty much all of those (with the exception of the pace change) and for mary work I really like Pfitz's long run approach.
2013-08-15 11:46 AM
in reply to: thebigb

Seattle
Subject: RE: (marathon training) long run

Originally posted by thebigb I'm not a huge fan of mixing and matching if you've already got a plan you're working with. However, I've done pretty much all of those (with the exception of the pace change) and for mary work I really like Pfitz's long run approach.

I second this.

Lydiard isn't too different and often even in Pfitz's long runs you don't always throw in those chunks of pace running.

I save the "speed" for speed specific workouts. 

2013-08-15 3:05 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: (marathon training) long run
Thanks, folks. Higdon does have speed specific workouts (temps, hills, 800s) and MP runs so I'll run my long runs as prescribed. Thanks for the feedback


2013-08-15 3:11 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: (marathon training) long run
Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by thebigb I'm not a huge fan of mixing and matching if you've already got a plan you're working with. However, I've done pretty much all of those (with the exception of the pace change) and for mary work I really like Pfitz's long run approach.

I second this.

Lydiard isn't too different and often even in Pfitz's long runs you don't always throw in those chunks of pace running.

I save the "speed" for speed specific workouts. 




I agree. Often you will feel like you are missing out during a week or a phase but that is just because the program is set to give your body a break before tearing it apart again.

Probably be a reasonable idea to give a different program a try at a later date though to work at things from a different angle.
2013-08-15 6:01 PM
in reply to: trishie

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Subject: RE: (marathon training) long run
I have used Pfitz's plans a few times. The LR with the last part at MP works well for me.
2013-08-15 6:11 PM
in reply to: rick4657


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Subject: RE: (marathon training) long run
Pfitz's all the way.
2013-08-15 8:26 PM
in reply to: #4829762

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Subject: RE: (marathon training) long run
I think if you're long run is over 2.5 hrs you are wasting your time. Keep the long run under 2 hrs. I just read an article supporting this but cant remember where. Google it. Also, I love the idea of surging. Definitely a great boredom killer. But dont do it too often. The long run has a specific purpose, and speed intervals aren't it. And going faster as your long run comes to an end is also a great way to train. I always try to negative split the last 4 or so miles by a couple seconds. Running your last mile as your fastest is always a huge confidence booster.

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Runningwithle.blogspot.com
2013-08-15 9:54 PM
in reply to: trishie

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Subject: RE: (marathon training) long run
Any of these could be good for folks who are sufficiently well trained to take advantage of them (which you might well be). But remember that most of these are taken from workouts designed for elite athletes who are putting in higher mileage than just about anybody around here and who are not worried about making the distance. These are folks who are looking to try anything to gain that extra minute or two. For most of us, we're just looking to have our bodies hold together while we get in enough miles to get around without blowing up.


2013-08-15 9:56 PM
in reply to: trishie

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Subject: RE: (marathon training) long run
long and steady sounds like every single on of my long runs...
2013-08-15 9:58 PM
in reply to: 0


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Subject: RE: (marathon training) long run
Originally posted by lekuhlman

I think if you're long run is over 2.5 hrs you are wasting your time. Keep the long run under 2 hrs. I just read an article supporting this but cant remember where. Google it. Also, I love the idea of surging. Definitely a great boredom killer. But dont do it too often. The long run has a specific purpose, and speed intervals aren't it. And going faster as your long run comes to an end is also a great way to train. I always try to negative split the last 4 or so miles by a couple seconds. Running your last mile as your fastest is always a huge confidence booster.

---------------------------------------

Runningwithle.blogspot.com


Many good plans peak with one or more 20ish mile runs (Higdon/Pfitz), and many runners are not under 2.5 hours for these runs. I think it is almost essential to run 2+ hours to condition your body not just physically, but metabolically. I 100 % agree the long run has its purpose, which is to build endurance in the muscles and tissues, and also to train your body to burn fuel differently (more fat burning). Pfitz suggests running long runs 10 to 20 percent slower than your goal pace, or you could go with heart rate, and make sure you run in the correct zone.

Also, going faster as your long run comes to an end...maybe occasionally. However, at the end of your long run is when your body is probably more fatigued than at any other time during your training, and running fast at that time could lead to injury. If you are going to vary the pace during your long runs, ideally, you want to be inconsistent, run faster early, sometimes middle, and maybe sometimes also at the end.

The way to stimulate adaptation and improvement is to constantly trick your body and not give it what it expects.

Edited by ImSore 2013-08-15 9:59 PM
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