Question for Sufferfest Vets regarding TSS on Downward Spiral

It feels better, because Downward spiral is focused more on very hard yet short efforts instead of the longer efforts that the other videos uses.  It's not that it's a better workout, since it has a different goal than Fight Club or Angels.  All of them serve a purpose.

According to Trainerroad, the TSS for Angels and Downward should be both around 93 (for me anyway).  Maybe you're resting at a slightly higher wattage when doing Downward Spiral.

It may be that Downward Spiral plays to your strengths more -- short intervals with high power output -- rather than what the other videos require -- longer intervals with power closer to threshold.  So while the TSS is higher, it may have felt "easier" to you. 

You can train your weaknesses and make them stronger, but if you ignore your strengths, they'll become weaker.  I know I'm struggling with that right now....if you give me a threshold and a VO2max workout with equivalent TSS, the VO2max will feel "easier" to me because I've been focusing on it lately.  Now I'm learning that I should not have ignored the threshold work!

The acute pain of the workout depends on the intensity factor (IF), not the TSS.

Anaerobic repeats have the highest IF, and hurt the most (Revolver.)

The TSS beatdown is something you'll feel more as fatigue on later workouts, like for the next two days. I get this a lot now; my weekend bike trainer ride is around 180-210 TSS at all z2/lowz3 aerobic effort, and while the workout doesn't hurt per se (it's still hard at the end but I'm not gasping for air), my next day run definitely feels the beatdown. In contrast, the 1hr Sufferfest workout hurts me bad in all respects when Im doing it, but since the TSS is only half of that long ride, my legs are much less fatigued the next day in comparison. 

That said, for difference between 90 TSS and 101TSS, it's probably going to be very similar and wouldn't be at all surprised at all if the more short/intense one beat you down a bit more than the smoother one.

You can do Downward over and over again - nothing wrong with that. Just vary it up with other stuff as well and it's a perfectly good repeatable workout.

To make you feel better, while I LOVE the Sufferfest videos, I rarely do them. I do them with the prescribed TrainerRoad power so I'm trying to hit all their power targets like you are, and it's just too hard for me to do regularly. I think I did them twice in an 18 week buildup last block, and only near the end, and the reason was definitely that they were so intense.

I think it's more a function of how your aerobic system has developed to this point as opposed to size. For example, I'm just a bit smaller than you are and tend to be the other way around. I come from a more explosive sport background as well, but have been (much) more focused on tri & endurance sports the last few years. I'll do strong on threshold and can keep riding ok at an easier level. But go to a VO2 one and it kills me. I can hit the numbers, but I'm done after the last rep. Zone 2 is quite hard even after good deal of recovery riding. And I have to watch it in how soon I go hard again over the next few days.

Double check how you're doing compared to the targets for Downward Spiral. If you're basically doing it how you're supposed and going over on the hard parts, then you're relatively well developed up in that area as TR is usually rather aggressive on these things. The threshold work is what you want to bring up more. Performance there is a better indication of your fitness as it applies to tri. It also takes longer and more work to improve than VO2 or higher. Keep up the rotation for awhile as you have been. Get used to what it does for you and then you can learn how to add/switch in other work too.

Well, I think you know why the Trainerroad rides feel 'too easy' if you're staying with an FTP that's 30 lower that what you tested using virtualpower. 

Ditto that. Is your FTP correct? Also, you don't *have* to do the workouts at 100%. As said before, TR makes that setting very aggressive. I don't actually have TR, but don't think I would be doing all the hard workouts at their 100%. Just hard enough so that the intervals intended to work threshold would still be up in their threshold or sweetspot depending on the goals for the day.

To the other response, I know what you mean about avoiding sufferfest due to the intensity, and even tried doing some trainer road workouts too, but they were just to easy and I didn't feel like I was getting a great workout. I had an especially difficult time sticking with it after I retested my ftp and it jumped by almost 30 (probably more due to not pushing as hard on my first test). i couldnt keep up with the target power levels after that and got frustrated and quit doing them, it was also spring so the weather was more friendly too. however seeing my TSS on the trainer vs outdoors makes it a bit easier to do the trainer. It seems i have to ride twice as long for the same effort.

Not trying to nitpick here - I just got the impression that you did find the Trainerroad workouts too easy as bolded above, and a possible reason was that you were doing them at the lower FTP numbers, but sounds like you tried them at the higher power too?

I've only used TR for a short period last year, but I also found their workouts to be extremely aggressive.  The ones asking for 90+ TSS within an hour would leave me completely shelled.  Though I suppose it depends on how much overall riding you're doing and/or how much swimming and running your doing that will determine how frequently you can tackle such hard bike workouts.

Yes, TR is very aggressive if you follow their settings. I don't even know if it's possible to do 2 in a row if you actually hit all the TR-prescribed power targets, it's so brutal.

Honestly, if you're able to do back-to-back Sufferfest workouts on TrainerRoad at 100% power and hit all the targets, it's probably time to retest and adjust FTP.  

I thought it was particularly interesting / entertaining / amusing during last year's Tour of Sufferlandria the number of people who were doing just that (for nine days in a row).

I like Ben's philosophy on SF videos -- modify the workouts as needed so you work your intended zones.  He once told me that and suddenly it all made sense to me.  I modify the rides and intensities as needed, and still come out feeling like I got an incredible workout. 

Yeah, I *think* 100% on those is about as hard as you can do it at that FTP. So if you're riding a good deal throughout the week plus other training, you're probably not actually going to be able to do it. Not for that long anyway. I also look at this graph and the various curves plotted on it. The Effect on Threshold plot actually peaks just before threshold, so I try to do much of the harder work in this area. I have more time to ride, so go just a bit lower on interval intensity (like lower 90's) to get more time up here (see duration curve). I'd be pushing a little higher (mid to high 90's) if forced to limit rides to 1 hr. The strain curve continues to increase with higher intensity, so it feels harder, but I don't go over threshold that much for an entire interval unless I'm doing a VO2 workout. At times yes, but I'll have something specific I'm trying to do with it. Not nearly on a basis of several times a week.

I didn't say before to avoid additional confusion at the time (too much info to take in at once), but would also think of adding in some other workouts. The number of TR workouts I know is limited, but I prefer workouts like HHNF more often. It's 1:15, but cut out right as the TTT starts and it's 2 x 20' in like 1:05. TR specific ones to consider would be like Tallac or Carson. Lots of strong work in the hour, but not quite gut-busting. Tallac is 3 x 15', so has 45' of a 1 hr workout  in lower Z4. Basically rides with a good deal of time in Z4.