Distance Accuracy in Races (Page 2)
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2014-09-17 10:05 AM in reply to: 3mar |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by 3mar I appreciate all the insight and just wanted to get a feel for it. If it varies, then so be it. I just have to sing "Let it go" in my head and try to shut the engineering part down (I can't stand that song by the way, but with two little girls under 5 in the house, it's on repeat here). The other reason I was asking was to figure out how I would start my next triathlon. Swimming is my strong suite, so I want to be near the front, but at the same time, this is a huge triathlon (around 1,500) and I don't want to get in anyone's way either. I can't stand it when people start ahead of where they should and if someone has to pass me in the first 200 meters, I seriously kick myself as I don't want to mess someone else's race up. I was looking at last year's results for swimming and the leader came in somewhere in the 19's. I swim a 1,500 around 22-23 minutes in practice so I should be in the 21 range for a race. This would put in the top 20-30 people out of the water. Now, the big question is; is the swim actually 1,500m? If it was long last year, I'll want to sit back in the pack a little, so I don't get in the way of the legit folks. If it was short, I want to be right up front. Other than that...whatever...relatively speaking, I stink at the bike so my you-know-what will be getting passed quite a bit. On the other hand, if I start too far back in the pack and have to duke it out with a lot of people slower than me for position, that will really put me in a bad mood as I will feel like I was shorted a bit. I'm over-thinking things, but this is how I mentally prepare for races. I want to know where I'm going to be for the whole thing, who to pace off of, when to back off, and when to hit it. With all due respect, you'll just drive yourself crazy if you obsess about the accuracy of triathlon courses. As far as your race strategy, if you think you're going to be in the top 20-30 in a 1500M swim, then you still should be whether the measureed distance is +/- 10%. It's going to be the same for everyone. In a large race there will likely always be slower swimmners in front of you and faster ones behind at the start. You have no idea who's going to show up. Make a reasonable guess about where to start and then adapt your strategy once you get going. Mark |
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2014-09-17 11:09 AM in reply to: RedCorvette |
1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by RedCorvette Originally posted by 3mar I appreciate all the insight and just wanted to get a feel for it. If it varies, then so be it. I just have to sing "Let it go" in my head and try to shut the engineering part down (I can't stand that song by the way, but with two little girls under 5 in the house, it's on repeat here). The other reason I was asking was to figure out how I would start my next triathlon. Swimming is my strong suite, so I want to be near the front, but at the same time, this is a huge triathlon (around 1,500) and I don't want to get in anyone's way either. I can't stand it when people start ahead of where they should and if someone has to pass me in the first 200 meters, I seriously kick myself as I don't want to mess someone else's race up. I was looking at last year's results for swimming and the leader came in somewhere in the 19's. I swim a 1,500 around 22-23 minutes in practice so I should be in the 21 range for a race. This would put in the top 20-30 people out of the water. Now, the big question is; is the swim actually 1,500m? If it was long last year, I'll want to sit back in the pack a little, so I don't get in the way of the legit folks. If it was short, I want to be right up front. Other than that...whatever...relatively speaking, I stink at the bike so my you-know-what will be getting passed quite a bit. On the other hand, if I start too far back in the pack and have to duke it out with a lot of people slower than me for position, that will really put me in a bad mood as I will feel like I was shorted a bit. I'm over-thinking things, but this is how I mentally prepare for races. I want to know where I'm going to be for the whole thing, who to pace off of, when to back off, and when to hit it. With all due respect, you'll just drive yourself crazy if you obsess about the accuracy of triathlon courses. As far as your race strategy, if you think you're going to be in the top 20-30 in a 1500M swim, then you still should be whether the measureed distance is +/- 10%. It's going to be the same for everyone. In a large race there will likely always be slower swimmners in front of you and faster ones behind at the start. You have no idea who's going to show up. Make a reasonable guess about where to start and then adapt your strategy once you get going. Mark I'm still new to this sport. This will only be my third triathlon, so I'm doing my best to figure out where I stand. In a road race, I can tell exactly where I need to line up, who I need to pace off of, who I should pass and who I should let pass for the most part. This is still totally new and going into a race this big is a bit intimidating, so I've spent a lot of time looking at last year's results to see where I should expect to fit. The distance thing puts a bit of a twist, but at least I go in knowing that. |
2014-09-17 11:34 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 933 Connecticut | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races With all due respect then, if you're new to the sport, swim pace seeding is probably going to be difficult unless you have a lot of open water swimming experience. I know more than a handful of "good" (above average for a triathlon, not Div I college, say 1:20\100 SCY T pace) swimmers who got schooled pretty hard in triathlon for a good full season. Open water swimming is just different, and swimming in close proximity to others is just different. My advice would be to line up on the front, but wide of the pack. You'll swim an extra maybe 20 meters triangulating to the first buoy, and you'll know before you get there where you will fit in the pack after the turn, without screwing up anyone else's race or your own. I don't know where you think the 2 minutes are coming from in the race, btw. If you swim 1500 in 23 minutes, that's generally where you swim 1500. I know I don't have 8 seconds per 100m I can magically shave off on race day, what's your secret? If anything, I can swim faster in training than I do in races, owing to sighting, turns, jockeying, adrenaline,etc., not to mention the benefit of turns. SCY is faster pace than LCM, for example. I also know a few dudes that swim faster in open water than they can in a pool. In fact, pretty much anyone who doesn't/can't do flip turns falls into that category. Edited by fisherman76 2014-09-17 11:41 AM |
2014-09-17 11:38 AM in reply to: 3mar |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by RedCorvette I'm still new to this sport. This will only be my third triathlon, so I'm doing my best to figure out where I stand. In a road race, I can tell exactly where I need to line up, who I need to pace off of, who I should pass and who I should let pass for the most part. This is still totally new and going into a race this big is a bit intimidating, so I've spent a lot of time looking at last year's results to see where I should expect to fit. The distance thing puts a bit of a twist, but at least I go in knowing that. Originally posted by 3mar I appreciate all the insight and just wanted to get a feel for it. If it varies, then so be it. I just have to sing "Let it go" in my head and try to shut the engineering part down (I can't stand that song by the way, but with two little girls under 5 in the house, it's on repeat here). The other reason I was asking was to figure out how I would start my next triathlon. Swimming is my strong suite, so I want to be near the front, but at the same time, this is a huge triathlon (around 1,500) and I don't want to get in anyone's way either. I can't stand it when people start ahead of where they should and if someone has to pass me in the first 200 meters, I seriously kick myself as I don't want to mess someone else's race up. I was looking at last year's results for swimming and the leader came in somewhere in the 19's. I swim a 1,500 around 22-23 minutes in practice so I should be in the 21 range for a race. This would put in the top 20-30 people out of the water. Now, the big question is; is the swim actually 1,500m? If it was long last year, I'll want to sit back in the pack a little, so I don't get in the way of the legit folks. If it was short, I want to be right up front. Other than that...whatever...relatively speaking, I stink at the bike so my you-know-what will be getting passed quite a bit. On the other hand, if I start too far back in the pack and have to duke it out with a lot of people slower than me for position, that will really put me in a bad mood as I will feel like I was shorted a bit. I'm over-thinking things, but this is how I mentally prepare for races. I want to know where I'm going to be for the whole thing, who to pace off of, when to back off, and when to hit it. With all due respect, you'll just drive yourself crazy if you obsess about the accuracy of triathlon courses. As far as your race strategy, if you think you're going to be in the top 20-30 in a 1500M swim, then you still should be whether the measureed distance is +/- 10%. It's going to be the same for everyone. In a large race there will likely always be slower swimmners in front of you and faster ones behind at the start. You have no idea who's going to show up. Make a reasonable guess about where to start and then adapt your strategy once you get going. Mark How do you do that? Do you know everyone in the race? There is no way in hell you could do that here.....I've seen first place in a local 5K be 14:20 and I've seen it be 16:50, and everything in between.....how do you figure you are going to know who to pace off of or who you should pass or not pass? It's triathlon......about 1% of the people who do it are really fast, and who those people are changes by race length. What you need to concentrate on is having the best race you can have.....and forget who else is there or if the distance is off, or whatever. |
2014-09-17 11:42 AM in reply to: 0 |
1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by fisherman76 With all due respect then, if you're new to the sport, swim pace seeding is probably going to be difficult unless you have a lot of open water swimming experience. I know more than a handful of "good" (above average for a triathlon, not Div I college, say 1:20\100 SCY T pace) swimmers who got schooled pretty hard in triathlon for a good full season. Open water swimming is just different, and swimming in close proximity to others is just different. My advice would be to line up on the front, but wide of the pack. You'll swim an extra maybe 20 meters triangulating to the first buoy, and you'll know before you get there where you will fit in the pack after the turn, without screwing up anyone else's race or your own. I don't know where you think the 2 minutes are coming from in the race, btw. If you swim 1500 in 23 minutes, that's generally where you swim 1500. I know I don't have 8 seconds per 100m I can magically shave off on race day, what's your secret? If anything, I can swim faster in training than I do in races, owing to sighting, turns, jockeying, adrenaline,etc., not to mention the benefit of turns. SCY is faster pace than LCM, for example. I also know a few dudes that swim faster in open water than they can in a pool. In fact, pretty much anyone who doesn't/can't do flip turns falls into that category. Lastly, I'm not going all over 23 minutes for 1500 meters, but that doesn't make you one of the better swimmers out there most likely. The front pack in an Olympic distance is *usually* considerably faster than that (ie anywhere from 17-20 minutes assuming the course is true). At 23 minutes you're very likely in the pack and dusting it up, sorry Well, I guess your post kind of goes full circle on the thread. You're talking in pretty precise comparisons of open water swimming to pool swimming, where the general consensus is that measurement of the first is an open variable. The above is exactly what I was trying to gauge when I asked about accuracy in the first place. Regarding the additional speed; every week I do a 1,500m swim+12 mile bike+3 mile run. I use it as a yard stick to measure my progress. As of late, I have been averaging about 30 seconds faster every week on the swim and quite frankly, I have yet to really push past a moderate effort (to the annoyance of the coach at the pool I swim at). The last triathlon I did I was 8th out of 100 out of the water, so it's not quite dusting it up in the MOP. I was also considerably slower then. Edited by 3mar 2014-09-17 12:00 PM |
2014-09-17 11:53 AM in reply to: 3mar |
Veteran 1384 Panama City, FL | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races I got over it really fast in my first marathon, when at "26.2" gps distance, I still had about .8 of a mile to go. The course could be 100% certified accurate, but we don't run perfect tangents. You run further. If I ran the Boston Marathon course tomorrow I'd probably run 27 miles. Not a big deal. |
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2014-09-17 12:09 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by RedCorvette I'm still new to this sport. This will only be my third triathlon, so I'm doing my best to figure out where I stand. In a road race, I can tell exactly where I need to line up, who I need to pace off of, who I should pass and who I should let pass for the most part. This is still totally new and going into a race this big is a bit intimidating, so I've spent a lot of time looking at last year's results to see where I should expect to fit. The distance thing puts a bit of a twist, but at least I go in knowing that. Originally posted by 3mar I appreciate all the insight and just wanted to get a feel for it. If it varies, then so be it. I just have to sing "Let it go" in my head and try to shut the engineering part down (I can't stand that song by the way, but with two little girls under 5 in the house, it's on repeat here). The other reason I was asking was to figure out how I would start my next triathlon. Swimming is my strong suite, so I want to be near the front, but at the same time, this is a huge triathlon (around 1,500) and I don't want to get in anyone's way either. I can't stand it when people start ahead of where they should and if someone has to pass me in the first 200 meters, I seriously kick myself as I don't want to mess someone else's race up. I was looking at last year's results for swimming and the leader came in somewhere in the 19's. I swim a 1,500 around 22-23 minutes in practice so I should be in the 21 range for a race. This would put in the top 20-30 people out of the water. Now, the big question is; is the swim actually 1,500m? If it was long last year, I'll want to sit back in the pack a little, so I don't get in the way of the legit folks. If it was short, I want to be right up front. Other than that...whatever...relatively speaking, I stink at the bike so my you-know-what will be getting passed quite a bit. On the other hand, if I start too far back in the pack and have to duke it out with a lot of people slower than me for position, that will really put me in a bad mood as I will feel like I was shorted a bit. I'm over-thinking things, but this is how I mentally prepare for races. I want to know where I'm going to be for the whole thing, who to pace off of, when to back off, and when to hit it. With all due respect, you'll just drive yourself crazy if you obsess about the accuracy of triathlon courses. As far as your race strategy, if you think you're going to be in the top 20-30 in a 1500M swim, then you still should be whether the measureed distance is +/- 10%. It's going to be the same for everyone. In a large race there will likely always be slower swimmners in front of you and faster ones behind at the start. You have no idea who's going to show up. Make a reasonable guess about where to start and then adapt your strategy once you get going. Mark How do you do that? Do you know everyone in the race? There is no way in hell you could do that here.....I've seen first place in a local 5K be 14:20 and I've seen it be 16:50, and everything in between.....how do you figure you are going to know who to pace off of or who you should pass or not pass? It's triathlon......about 1% of the people who do it are really fast, and who those people are changes by race length. What you need to concentrate on is having the best race you can have.....and forget who else is there or if the distance is off, or whatever. I guess what I'm saying is there is a comfort level with running a race, where I know, based on the size, generally where I stand. Also, when you've done enough of them (I was doing 5ks weekly for a while) you get a feel for who's legit, who's not and who's in your general range. You also see a lot of the same people so you know who's who. The bigger races are obviously open. I'm just trying to have a decent race, without getting in anyone's way. The first tri I did, it was on a whim and I had not swam a lap in over 15 years. I started way at the back and quickly regretted it as I was jammed up with a lot of people slower than me. My second one was only about 100 people, so I started in the front, but to the side just in case. I came in 8th out of the water, so I could have started towards the middle. This one is going to be 15 times the size, so I want to figure out how to start. Like I said, I want a good race, but I realize I'm new and out of respect, I don't want to get in anyone's way. |
2014-09-17 12:16 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Extreme Veteran 406 | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by 3mar I guess what I'm saying is there is a comfort level with running a race, where I know, based on the size, generally where I stand. Also, when you've done enough of them (I was doing 5ks weekly for a while) you get a feel for who's legit, who's not and who's in your general range. You also see a lot of the same people so you know who's who. The bigger races are obviously open. I'm just trying to have a decent race, without getting in anyone's way. The first tri I did, it was on a whim and I had not swam a lap in over 15 years. I started way at the back and quickly regretted it as I was jammed up with a lot of people slower than me. My second one was only about 100 people, so I started in the front, but to the side just in case. I came in 8th out of the water, so I could have started towards the middle. This one is going to be 15 times the size, so I want to figure out how to start. Like I said, I want a good race, but I realize I'm new and out of respect, I don't want to get in anyone's way. I'm not *at all* trying to sound flip or dismissive, but it really seems like you are forgetting to have fun. This stupid sport is supposed to be fun. I have an absolute blast every race. |
2014-09-17 12:19 PM in reply to: Bodaggit |
1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by Bodaggit Originally posted by 3mar I guess what I'm saying is there is a comfort level with running a race, where I know, based on the size, generally where I stand. Also, when you've done enough of them (I was doing 5ks weekly for a while) you get a feel for who's legit, who's not and who's in your general range. You also see a lot of the same people so you know who's who. The bigger races are obviously open. I'm just trying to have a decent race, without getting in anyone's way. The first tri I did, it was on a whim and I had not swam a lap in over 15 years. I started way at the back and quickly regretted it as I was jammed up with a lot of people slower than me. My second one was only about 100 people, so I started in the front, but to the side just in case. I came in 8th out of the water, so I could have started towards the middle. This one is going to be 15 times the size, so I want to figure out how to start. Like I said, I want a good race, but I realize I'm new and out of respect, I don't want to get in anyone's way. I'm not *at all* trying to sound flip or dismissive, but it really seems like you are forgetting to have fun. This stupid sport is supposed to be fun. I have an absolute blast every race. Excellent point. |
2014-09-17 12:20 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by Left Brain I guess what I'm saying is there is a comfort level with running a race, where I know, based on the size, generally where I stand. Also, when you've done enough of them (I was doing 5ks weekly for a while) you get a feel for who's legit, who's not and who's in your general range. You also see a lot of the same people so you know who's who. The bigger races are obviously open. I'm just trying to have a decent race, without getting in anyone's way. The first tri I did, it was on a whim and I had not swam a lap in over 15 years. I started way at the back and quickly regretted it as I was jammed up with a lot of people slower than me. My second one was only about 100 people, so I started in the front, but to the side just in case. I came in 8th out of the water, so I could have started towards the middle. This one is going to be 15 times the size, so I want to figure out how to start. Like I said, I want a good race, but I realize I'm new and out of respect, I don't want to get in anyone's way. Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by RedCorvette I'm still new to this sport. This will only be my third triathlon, so I'm doing my best to figure out where I stand. In a road race, I can tell exactly where I need to line up, who I need to pace off of, who I should pass and who I should let pass for the most part. This is still totally new and going into a race this big is a bit intimidating, so I've spent a lot of time looking at last year's results to see where I should expect to fit. The distance thing puts a bit of a twist, but at least I go in knowing that. Originally posted by 3mar I appreciate all the insight and just wanted to get a feel for it. If it varies, then so be it. I just have to sing "Let it go" in my head and try to shut the engineering part down (I can't stand that song by the way, but with two little girls under 5 in the house, it's on repeat here). The other reason I was asking was to figure out how I would start my next triathlon. Swimming is my strong suite, so I want to be near the front, but at the same time, this is a huge triathlon (around 1,500) and I don't want to get in anyone's way either. I can't stand it when people start ahead of where they should and if someone has to pass me in the first 200 meters, I seriously kick myself as I don't want to mess someone else's race up. I was looking at last year's results for swimming and the leader came in somewhere in the 19's. I swim a 1,500 around 22-23 minutes in practice so I should be in the 21 range for a race. This would put in the top 20-30 people out of the water. Now, the big question is; is the swim actually 1,500m? If it was long last year, I'll want to sit back in the pack a little, so I don't get in the way of the legit folks. If it was short, I want to be right up front. Other than that...whatever...relatively speaking, I stink at the bike so my you-know-what will be getting passed quite a bit. On the other hand, if I start too far back in the pack and have to duke it out with a lot of people slower than me for position, that will really put me in a bad mood as I will feel like I was shorted a bit. I'm over-thinking things, but this is how I mentally prepare for races. I want to know where I'm going to be for the whole thing, who to pace off of, when to back off, and when to hit it. With all due respect, you'll just drive yourself crazy if you obsess about the accuracy of triathlon courses. As far as your race strategy, if you think you're going to be in the top 20-30 in a 1500M swim, then you still should be whether the measureed distance is +/- 10%. It's going to be the same for everyone. In a large race there will likely always be slower swimmners in front of you and faster ones behind at the start. You have no idea who's going to show up. Make a reasonable guess about where to start and then adapt your strategy once you get going. Mark How do you do that? Do you know everyone in the race? There is no way in hell you could do that here.....I've seen first place in a local 5K be 14:20 and I've seen it be 16:50, and everything in between.....how do you figure you are going to know who to pace off of or who you should pass or not pass? It's triathlon......about 1% of the people who do it are really fast, and who those people are changes by race length. What you need to concentrate on is having the best race you can have.....and forget who else is there or if the distance is off, or whatever. What is the distance of the race and what are your bike and run times....how many people? Local or regional race? |
2014-09-17 12:30 PM in reply to: trijamie |
Alpharetta, Georgia | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by trijamie lets hope they anchor the buoys well. I did a race once where the turn buoy floated away, and we just turned whenever someone in a boat started shouting at us. How's that for accurate That happened in one of my races as well, but the bouey didn't come un-anchored until half way through the wave starts. So the earlier waves swam a much shorter distance than the later waves. For people who preach "we all do the same distance on race day, who cares" - that line doesn't always apply. |
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2014-09-17 12:32 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
928 | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Every race is different, and you just have to get a feel for it. But most of that comes during the race anyway. Just go with it! |
2014-09-17 12:32 PM in reply to: lisac957 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by lisac957 Originally posted by trijamie lets hope they anchor the buoys well. I did a race once where the turn buoy floated away, and we just turned whenever someone in a boat started shouting at us. How's that for accurate That happened in one of my races as well, but the bouey didn't come un-anchored until half way through the wave starts. So the earlier waves swam a much shorter distance than the later waves. For people who preach "we all do the same distance on race day, who cares" - that line doesn't always apply. HAHAHA!! Kansas City I bet.....I was there. |
2014-09-17 12:39 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Alpharetta, Georgia | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by lisac957 Originally posted by trijamie lets hope they anchor the buoys well. I did a race once where the turn buoy floated away, and we just turned whenever someone in a boat started shouting at us. How's that for accurate That happened in one of my races as well, but the bouey didn't come un-anchored until half way through the wave starts. So the earlier waves swam a much shorter distance than the later waves. For people who preach "we all do the same distance on race day, who cares" - that line doesn't always apply. HAHAHA!! Kansas City I bet.....I was there. It was one of the Kansas 70.3s in Lawrence - in the triangle swim the two far/turn boueys started off parallel to each other. But when I got there it was obvious that the first turn bouey was floating away, and even the lifeguard was trying to wrangle it. 30mph winds at 7 a.m. will do that! I kind of expect most to be off by some degree, but one that frustrated me quite a lot was a trail run (also in Lawrence!) advertised as a half marathon. It was almost 14.5 miles and the race organizers knew it (I confirmed this afterwards) - but they continued to say it was a half marathon distance. It was my first trail run, and with other LONG distances going on at the same time (50K, 100K, full marathon, etc.) I actually thought I had taken a wrong turn and was going to end up doing my first 50 miler or something until I popped out of the woods to see the finish line. One of those races where you don't see anyone for long periods of time and lots of opportunities to hop on the wrong trail, so it was a bit unnerving. |
2014-09-17 12:42 PM in reply to: 0 |
1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by Left Brain I guess what I'm saying is there is a comfort level with running a race, where I know, based on the size, generally where I stand. Also, when you've done enough of them (I was doing 5ks weekly for a while) you get a feel for who's legit, who's not and who's in your general range. You also see a lot of the same people so you know who's who. The bigger races are obviously open. I'm just trying to have a decent race, without getting in anyone's way. The first tri I did, it was on a whim and I had not swam a lap in over 15 years. I started way at the back and quickly regretted it as I was jammed up with a lot of people slower than me. My second one was only about 100 people, so I started in the front, but to the side just in case. I came in 8th out of the water, so I could have started towards the middle. This one is going to be 15 times the size, so I want to figure out how to start. Like I said, I want a good race, but I realize I'm new and out of respect, I don't want to get in anyone's way. Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by RedCorvette I'm still new to this sport. This will only be my third triathlon, so I'm doing my best to figure out where I stand. In a road race, I can tell exactly where I need to line up, who I need to pace off of, who I should pass and who I should let pass for the most part. This is still totally new and going into a race this big is a bit intimidating, so I've spent a lot of time looking at last year's results to see where I should expect to fit. The distance thing puts a bit of a twist, but at least I go in knowing that. Originally posted by 3mar I appreciate all the insight and just wanted to get a feel for it. If it varies, then so be it. I just have to sing "Let it go" in my head and try to shut the engineering part down (I can't stand that song by the way, but with two little girls under 5 in the house, it's on repeat here). The other reason I was asking was to figure out how I would start my next triathlon. Swimming is my strong suite, so I want to be near the front, but at the same time, this is a huge triathlon (around 1,500) and I don't want to get in anyone's way either. I can't stand it when people start ahead of where they should and if someone has to pass me in the first 200 meters, I seriously kick myself as I don't want to mess someone else's race up. I was looking at last year's results for swimming and the leader came in somewhere in the 19's. I swim a 1,500 around 22-23 minutes in practice so I should be in the 21 range for a race. This would put in the top 20-30 people out of the water. Now, the big question is; is the swim actually 1,500m? If it was long last year, I'll want to sit back in the pack a little, so I don't get in the way of the legit folks. If it was short, I want to be right up front. Other than that...whatever...relatively speaking, I stink at the bike so my you-know-what will be getting passed quite a bit. On the other hand, if I start too far back in the pack and have to duke it out with a lot of people slower than me for position, that will really put me in a bad mood as I will feel like I was shorted a bit. I'm over-thinking things, but this is how I mentally prepare for races. I want to know where I'm going to be for the whole thing, who to pace off of, when to back off, and when to hit it. With all due respect, you'll just drive yourself crazy if you obsess about the accuracy of triathlon courses. As far as your race strategy, if you think you're going to be in the top 20-30 in a 1500M swim, then you still should be whether the measureed distance is +/- 10%. It's going to be the same for everyone. In a large race there will likely always be slower swimmners in front of you and faster ones behind at the start. You have no idea who's going to show up. Make a reasonable guess about where to start and then adapt your strategy once you get going. Mark How do you do that? Do you know everyone in the race? There is no way in hell you could do that here.....I've seen first place in a local 5K be 14:20 and I've seen it be 16:50, and everything in between.....how do you figure you are going to know who to pace off of or who you should pass or not pass? It's triathlon......about 1% of the people who do it are really fast, and who those people are changes by race length. What you need to concentrate on is having the best race you can have.....and forget who else is there or if the distance is off, or whatever. What is the distance of the race and what are your bike and run times....how many people? Local or regional race? It's an Olympic and based upon the race map, it's dead on. I think there were around 1,400 people last year. It sells out at 1,700, and I'm not sure if they're there yet. It's the Escape to Miami Triathlon. There's an oly and a sprint, but they are separated by an hour and 45 minutes. I looked back and the start is wave, but only broken into three ; All seeded and collegiate with the Males 30-39, then the rest of the men, then third the women and relays. I'm 36 so I will be in wave one and I think I just answered my own question....obviously there will be some seriously legit folks in wave one and I'm probably best to hang in the middle.3 Edit: I forgot to answer your other question. I could run a stand alone 10 in the low 40's right now. I think my PR is around 42 and I think I'm close to that. Biking...well...if I average 20 mph I'll be happy, it's my weak spot. I won't be going for low 40's on the 10k but I can very comfortably maintain 7:30 pace. Provided I don't kill myself on the bike trying to keep up anyway. Edited by 3mar 2014-09-17 12:45 PM |
2014-09-17 12:47 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by Left Brain It's an Olympic and based upon the race map, it's dead on. I think there were around 1,400 people last year. It sells out at 1,700, and I'm not sure if they're there yet. It's the Escape to Miami Triathlon. There's an oly and a sprint, but they are separated by an hour and 45 minutes. I looked back and the start is wave, but only broken into three ; All seeded and collegiate with the Males 30-39, then the rest of the men, then third the women and relays. I'm 36 so I will be in wave one and I think I just answered my own question....obviously there will be some seriously legit folks in wave one and I'm probably best to hang in the middle. Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by Left Brain I guess what I'm saying is there is a comfort level with running a race, where I know, based on the size, generally where I stand. Also, when you've done enough of them (I was doing 5ks weekly for a while) you get a feel for who's legit, who's not and who's in your general range. You also see a lot of the same people so you know who's who. The bigger races are obviously open. I'm just trying to have a decent race, without getting in anyone's way. The first tri I did, it was on a whim and I had not swam a lap in over 15 years. I started way at the back and quickly regretted it as I was jammed up with a lot of people slower than me. My second one was only about 100 people, so I started in the front, but to the side just in case. I came in 8th out of the water, so I could have started towards the middle. This one is going to be 15 times the size, so I want to figure out how to start. Like I said, I want a good race, but I realize I'm new and out of respect, I don't want to get in anyone's way. Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by RedCorvette I'm still new to this sport. This will only be my third triathlon, so I'm doing my best to figure out where I stand. In a road race, I can tell exactly where I need to line up, who I need to pace off of, who I should pass and who I should let pass for the most part. This is still totally new and going into a race this big is a bit intimidating, so I've spent a lot of time looking at last year's results to see where I should expect to fit. The distance thing puts a bit of a twist, but at least I go in knowing that. Originally posted by 3mar I appreciate all the insight and just wanted to get a feel for it. If it varies, then so be it. I just have to sing "Let it go" in my head and try to shut the engineering part down (I can't stand that song by the way, but with two little girls under 5 in the house, it's on repeat here). The other reason I was asking was to figure out how I would start my next triathlon. Swimming is my strong suite, so I want to be near the front, but at the same time, this is a huge triathlon (around 1,500) and I don't want to get in anyone's way either. I can't stand it when people start ahead of where they should and if someone has to pass me in the first 200 meters, I seriously kick myself as I don't want to mess someone else's race up. I was looking at last year's results for swimming and the leader came in somewhere in the 19's. I swim a 1,500 around 22-23 minutes in practice so I should be in the 21 range for a race. This would put in the top 20-30 people out of the water. Now, the big question is; is the swim actually 1,500m? If it was long last year, I'll want to sit back in the pack a little, so I don't get in the way of the legit folks. If it was short, I want to be right up front. Other than that...whatever...relatively speaking, I stink at the bike so my you-know-what will be getting passed quite a bit. On the other hand, if I start too far back in the pack and have to duke it out with a lot of people slower than me for position, that will really put me in a bad mood as I will feel like I was shorted a bit. I'm over-thinking things, but this is how I mentally prepare for races. I want to know where I'm going to be for the whole thing, who to pace off of, when to back off, and when to hit it. With all due respect, you'll just drive yourself crazy if you obsess about the accuracy of triathlon courses. As far as your race strategy, if you think you're going to be in the top 20-30 in a 1500M swim, then you still should be whether the measureed distance is +/- 10%. It's going to be the same for everyone. In a large race there will likely always be slower swimmners in front of you and faster ones behind at the start. You have no idea who's going to show up. Make a reasonable guess about where to start and then adapt your strategy once you get going. Mark How do you do that? Do you know everyone in the race? There is no way in hell you could do that here.....I've seen first place in a local 5K be 14:20 and I've seen it be 16:50, and everything in between.....how do you figure you are going to know who to pace off of or who you should pass or not pass? It's triathlon......about 1% of the people who do it are really fast, and who those people are changes by race length. What you need to concentrate on is having the best race you can have.....and forget who else is there or if the distance is off, or whatever. What is the distance of the race and what are your bike and run times....how many people? Local or regional race? You won't see many swims faster than 18-19 minutes....but you'll probably have a couple hundred in that 20-25 minute zone....no more than that. Triathletes can't swim worth a crap. If you want to stay out of everyone's way then your best bet is to keep to the right on the bike......quite a few folks will likely pass you there. The run is just a run.....15-20% will be walking at any given time, even in an Oly race. |
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2014-09-17 12:52 PM in reply to: lisac957 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by lisac957 Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by lisac957 Originally posted by trijamie lets hope they anchor the buoys well. I did a race once where the turn buoy floated away, and we just turned whenever someone in a boat started shouting at us. How's that for accurate That happened in one of my races as well, but the bouey didn't come un-anchored until half way through the wave starts. So the earlier waves swam a much shorter distance than the later waves. For people who preach "we all do the same distance on race day, who cares" - that line doesn't always apply. HAHAHA!! Kansas City I bet.....I was there. It was one of the Kansas 70.3s in Lawrence - in the triangle swim the two far/turn boueys started off parallel to each other. But when I got there it was obvious that the first turn bouey was floating away, and even the lifeguard was trying to wrangle it. 30mph winds at 7 a.m. will do that! I kind of expect most to be off by some degree, but one that frustrated me quite a lot was a trail run (also in Lawrence!) advertised as a half marathon. It was almost 14.5 miles and the race organizers knew it (I confirmed this afterwards) - but they continued to say it was a half marathon distance. It was my first trail run, and with other LONG distances going on at the same time (50K, 100K, full marathon, etc.) I actually thought I had taken a wrong turn and was going to end up doing my first 50 miler or something until I popped out of the woods to see the finish line. One of those races where you don't see anyone for long periods of time and lots of opportunities to hop on the wrong trail, so it was a bit unnerving. Must be the Ks. wind.....it was a 5150 that I was talking about.....maybe 3 years ago. Same deal, right bouy of a triangle went rogue. I saw it happen at a women's Jr. Elite race this year as well......the boneheads setting the bouys didn't bother to attach the anchors......it looked fine until the breeze started to blow just after the race started....then it looked like a three stooges movie. |
2014-09-17 1:10 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by Left Brain It's an Olympic and based upon the race map, it's dead on. I think there were around 1,400 people last year. It sells out at 1,700, and I'm not sure if they're there yet. It's the Escape to Miami Triathlon. There's an oly and a sprint, but they are separated by an hour and 45 minutes. I looked back and the start is wave, but only broken into three ; All seeded and collegiate with the Males 30-39, then the rest of the men, then third the women and relays. I'm 36 so I will be in wave one and I think I just answered my own question....obviously there will be some seriously legit folks in wave one and I'm probably best to hang in the middle. Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by Left Brain I guess what I'm saying is there is a comfort level with running a race, where I know, based on the size, generally where I stand. Also, when you've done enough of them (I was doing 5ks weekly for a while) you get a feel for who's legit, who's not and who's in your general range. You also see a lot of the same people so you know who's who. The bigger races are obviously open. I'm just trying to have a decent race, without getting in anyone's way. The first tri I did, it was on a whim and I had not swam a lap in over 15 years. I started way at the back and quickly regretted it as I was jammed up with a lot of people slower than me. My second one was only about 100 people, so I started in the front, but to the side just in case. I came in 8th out of the water, so I could have started towards the middle. This one is going to be 15 times the size, so I want to figure out how to start. Like I said, I want a good race, but I realize I'm new and out of respect, I don't want to get in anyone's way. Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by RedCorvette I'm still new to this sport. This will only be my third triathlon, so I'm doing my best to figure out where I stand. In a road race, I can tell exactly where I need to line up, who I need to pace off of, who I should pass and who I should let pass for the most part. This is still totally new and going into a race this big is a bit intimidating, so I've spent a lot of time looking at last year's results to see where I should expect to fit. The distance thing puts a bit of a twist, but at least I go in knowing that. Originally posted by 3mar I appreciate all the insight and just wanted to get a feel for it. If it varies, then so be it. I just have to sing "Let it go" in my head and try to shut the engineering part down (I can't stand that song by the way, but with two little girls under 5 in the house, it's on repeat here). The other reason I was asking was to figure out how I would start my next triathlon. Swimming is my strong suite, so I want to be near the front, but at the same time, this is a huge triathlon (around 1,500) and I don't want to get in anyone's way either. I can't stand it when people start ahead of where they should and if someone has to pass me in the first 200 meters, I seriously kick myself as I don't want to mess someone else's race up. I was looking at last year's results for swimming and the leader came in somewhere in the 19's. I swim a 1,500 around 22-23 minutes in practice so I should be in the 21 range for a race. This would put in the top 20-30 people out of the water. Now, the big question is; is the swim actually 1,500m? If it was long last year, I'll want to sit back in the pack a little, so I don't get in the way of the legit folks. If it was short, I want to be right up front. Other than that...whatever...relatively speaking, I stink at the bike so my you-know-what will be getting passed quite a bit. On the other hand, if I start too far back in the pack and have to duke it out with a lot of people slower than me for position, that will really put me in a bad mood as I will feel like I was shorted a bit. I'm over-thinking things, but this is how I mentally prepare for races. I want to know where I'm going to be for the whole thing, who to pace off of, when to back off, and when to hit it. With all due respect, you'll just drive yourself crazy if you obsess about the accuracy of triathlon courses. As far as your race strategy, if you think you're going to be in the top 20-30 in a 1500M swim, then you still should be whether the measureed distance is +/- 10%. It's going to be the same for everyone. In a large race there will likely always be slower swimmners in front of you and faster ones behind at the start. You have no idea who's going to show up. Make a reasonable guess about where to start and then adapt your strategy once you get going. Mark How do you do that? Do you know everyone in the race? There is no way in hell you could do that here.....I've seen first place in a local 5K be 14:20 and I've seen it be 16:50, and everything in between.....how do you figure you are going to know who to pace off of or who you should pass or not pass? It's triathlon......about 1% of the people who do it are really fast, and who those people are changes by race length. What you need to concentrate on is having the best race you can have.....and forget who else is there or if the distance is off, or whatever. What is the distance of the race and what are your bike and run times....how many people? Local or regional race? You won't see many swims faster than 18-19 minutes....but you'll probably have a couple hundred in that 20-25 minute zone....no more than that. Triathletes can't swim worth a crap. If you want to stay out of everyone's way then your best bet is to keep to the right on the bike......quite a few folks will likely pass you there. The run is just a run.....15-20% will be walking at any given time, even in an Oly race. Trust me, I plan on getting passed A LOT on the bike. My goal is to not let it break me off my pace. There's such a discrepancy between my bike and swim aptitude that the story on both my first two tris was, I came out towards the front of the swim, then got passed a bunch on the bike, which then caused me to go off pace and overdo it. By the time I got to the run I was spent. So this time I want to finish strong on the swim, just because I feel that's my event then practice the control I didn't have before on the bike and finally end with a strong run. There's no reason I can't easily be in the mid 40's on the 10k if I pace correctly on the bike, so that will be my goal. |
2014-09-17 1:12 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races I work a certified "race measurer" and he explained how it's done (not going to go into the details unless someone wants to know). One of the things is they take the absolute shortest possible route on a course. So I if you cut ever corner exactly right, and run a perfect tangent from curve to curve, you should get the proper distance within a tolerance. Also, believe it or not, they DON'T use GPS as the official way to measure a course. So most of the time, you will be long since you can't run the course perfectly with other runners on the course. If you run it SHORT, then you cheated (knowing or unknowingly) However, that's if it's a sanctioned race the RD chose to pay to have it measured. He measures the R&R marathon here, Silverman/70.3 Championships, and other big races. Some of the local stuff? They get close and call it good and don't pay for the official measurement.
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2014-09-17 1:18 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races If you are legit low 20s for an oly swim, you should start just off the front row--not in the middle or back, for sure. If the swim start is wide enough, even on the front row. Mostly depends how aggressive a swimmer you are and how much contact does/doesn't bother you. Go a little wider the more it does. The more aggressive you are, shade towards the middle/inside/front and try to find some faster feet to latch onto. No need to worry about how close the distance is to accurate or not. |
2014-09-17 2:04 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Veteran 379 | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by Left Brain If you are anal about distances I suggest sticking to the track. I would venture a guess that almost no local triathlon courses, and damn few regional courses have the swim, bike, and run ALL correct in the advertised distances.....if you want to go "engineer" on the subject of distance in triathlon courses I will say ZERO courses are correct to the level you are talking about. Swims are notoriously long or short. hur-rah. |
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2014-09-17 5:15 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Pro 5361 | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races I've always liked these stickers:
(816B05okdbL._SL1500_.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 816B05okdbL._SL1500_.jpg (187KB - 5 downloads) |
2014-09-17 5:22 PM in reply to: lisac957 |
New user 1351 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by lisac957 Originally posted by trijamie lets hope they anchor the buoys well. I did a race once where the turn buoy floated away, and we just turned whenever someone in a boat started shouting at us. How's that for accurate That happened in one of my races as well, but the bouey didn't come un-anchored until half way through the wave starts. So the earlier waves swam a much shorter distance than the later waves. For people who preach "we all do the same distance on race day, who cares" - that line doesn't always apply. Yep, same here. It didn't float away until half way through the swim. It was my first half IM, and my goal was just to finish so I wasn't too too pissed off about whatever the discrepancy in the swim distance was, but if I was more competitive about that race, I'm sure I would have had a different attitude about it. |
2014-09-17 5:23 PM in reply to: morey000 |
New user 1351 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races |
2014-09-17 5:54 PM in reply to: morey000 |
1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by morey000 I've always liked these stickers:
That totally happened to me during the NYC Marathon. Not quite that bad, but they had three separate starts and I accidentally started running with the wrong group. One minute we're all running together, then all of a sudden the people I'm running with turn away from the rest and I notice that I'm the only one with a different colored bib in the group. They started closer than the other two groups so they had to run a little loop to make it up....which I did with them. It only added like 0.2 miles but that "oh crap" moment when I was running away from the route is something I'll never forget. |
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