Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next?
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2006-12-21 3:16 PM |
Expert 755 SF-Bay Area | Subject: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? Okay, this newbie swimmer (started late last June) has finally reached his Short-Term Goal of swimming 2min/100m (over 1000m yesterday). From a landlubber to a self-admittedly rather poor fish imitation has required a Swim-centric training program, 3x's a week in the pool, Total Immersion (initially anyways), some Masters classes, and lots of Interval training. Two questions: 1) With the conventional wisdom of concentrating primarily on technique if swimming >2min/100m, what's the conventional wisdom for the next step for improved times (note: not that I'll ever stop trying to improve on technique)? 2) I'm swimming all my times without flip-turns (I just pull-up at the wall and turn around), but is it time to start flip-turns? I know this question kind of seems non-seq, but humor me. TIA! |
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2006-12-21 3:36 PM in reply to: #630850 |
Crystal Lake, IL | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? I'll be interested to see the responses because I'm basically at the same point you are, although maybe a few seconds behind and it took me longer to get here. I think it's basically more of the same and adding in flip turns if we feel like it. I like checking out logs of people who swim a lot to find new drills to do to help the workouts go by a little faster. (I do not recommend Whizzzz's no wall flip turns, they are a pain in the a$$ and you feel like people watching think you don't know you're supposed to actually use the wall). |
2006-12-21 3:36 PM in reply to: #630850 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? 1) FWIW, I think Mike R recommends focusing mostly on technique until you get to 1:50/100m. After that, swim lots. http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/swimvolume.html 2) You don't need them for a triathlon. But my opinion is if you want to swim, you learn to swim like a swimmer. Learn flip turns. They're not really that hard to do (at least with the poor technique I do them with). |
2006-12-21 3:37 PM in reply to: #630850 |
Elite 4344 | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? U.S. Olympic Team Trials qualifying time is 51.59. So that's something you can shoot for. Truthfully, the goal on the swim is efficiency. You need to be able to come out of the water ready to kill it on the bike. If you can swim 12m/600 meters easily, then you are good to go for any sprint in the country. TW |
2006-12-21 3:54 PM in reply to: #630850 |
Champion 5345 Carlsbad, California | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? Work on your run Seriously, you have worked very hard (In The Water) to get to this point. Some balance in your training will surely provide additional benefits in the pool. Oh, and Congratulations on your great achievement |
2006-12-21 3:56 PM in reply to: #630850 |
Pro 4206 Los Angeles, CA | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? I'd still focus mostly on technique and intervals...maybe throw in some strength training. |
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2006-12-21 4:01 PM in reply to: #630850 |
Champion 19812 MA | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? Congrats! Shoot for 19:30 for 1000 yds. I never stop having a faster goal for anything after I reach my current. You reached the goal I have and the only one I haven't achieved this year. I still have over a minute to shave off to get to sub 20. It is a lot of hard work. You did amazing! |
2006-12-21 4:05 PM in reply to: #630850 |
Master 1324 Rochester, NY | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? Swimming is a constantly evolving, constantly refining sport for every individual. Thats excellent that you've reached a 2 min/100 meter speed. If you keep working, you will continue to get faster. Swimming 3x per week is great. You should continue to see nice gains with that amount of swimming. Hitting the 2:00 mark should tell you that you've got the basics down. You're likely not doing anything egregious. Now, its a matter of refinement. How is your hip position? Your head position? Your catch? Are you crossing over the midline? There are any number of things that might be in play. If you're anything like me, you're constantly tweaking your stroke. Regular trial and error to see if changes make a difference. Before my shoulder surgery in November, I was down to about 1:45 per 100M. Thats down from 1:48 that I averaged in the Feb-2006 Masters Postal Hour swim. I'm still learning how to do flip turns. For whatever reason, I have a hard time doing them despite the help of several coaches. Will I be faster if I can master flip turns? Absolutely. But unless and until I start doing swim meets, do I really need them? Most triathlons are in open water. Catching grief from my lane mates has been a much larger driver for me to start flip turning than anything else. At the end of the day, 2:00/100 is a nice mile stone. But there is plenty of room for improvement still. Keep working on it. Keep trying to improve your stroke. 3x per week is enough to see improvement. You'll be just fine at your next tri. |
2006-12-21 4:08 PM in reply to: #630850 |
Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? (1) swim lots Are you doing sets and intervals or just a long straight swim? If the latter, incorporate various sets into your training. Swimming 1K 3 times a week isn't a good way to get faster. And swimming is like golf. You will ALWAYS be working on technique. (2) do 'em or don't do 'em. Yeah, there are no flip turns in (open water) tris. But you also don't stop every 25 yds and start over, either. I am a proponent of them if for nothing else than by doing them you feel more like a "swimmer". But I wouldn't spend more than a few minutes a session trying to get them down. Stop someone in the pool that looks good and ask if they'll give you a few pointers. Edited by ChrisM 2006-12-21 4:11 PM |
2006-12-21 4:12 PM in reply to: #630850 |
Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? A month ago, I was in your shoes.. so I'll share what worked for me. I was swimming around 2:00 or 2:02/100m for a good couple of months and couldn't get any faster. A few weeks ago, I was fortunate enough to be the only person to show up to a tri club swim, so I had one-on-one coaching for a full hour. The coach identified that my stroke was too streamlined.. too smooth. I was very precise and averaging 18-19 strokes per 25m. He told me to start turning over faster - and after a few trials, we found that 23 or 24 strokes per 25m was ideal for me. Since then, my times have steadily dropped: Last week, I did 1500m in 29:05... and I'm not even doing that kind of turnover 100% yet (I'm taking it gradually, as I have had rotator cuff issues in the past). FYI - I don't do flip turns. I find they actually slow me down because I'm too uncoordinated.. and the pool is often too busy - I don't want to kick someone that has come up right behind me. Anyway, if you have access to someone who can help you with your stroke, I'd highly recommend it. Perhaps your Masters coach? Sometimes it just takes another person's perspective to get things tweaked. |
2006-12-21 4:19 PM in reply to: #630850 |
Master 2629 brummie land | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? well done guncollector. my next advice would be as follows:
a) lose the guns b) on a slightly more serious note - aim for 2mins per 100m at longer distances. as you do that you'll get faster on the shorter distances. i managed 1.56 per 100m over a kilomtre yday so am very chuffed with myself c) give the flip turns a go. atm i'm managing turns at one end of the pool on longer swims, and hoping to increase that to turns both ends. still don't feel like i have enough oxygen to turn at both ends...yet! but you will notice the difference. you push out under your wake so you get faster. plus they look cool d) lose the guns
well done! |
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2006-12-21 4:52 PM in reply to: #630944 |
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2006-12-21 5:06 PM in reply to: #630850 |
Expert 755 SF-Bay Area | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? Thanks everyone for the great replies and related experiences. I see that the "next step" isn't so much a "uniform" step, as a "tailored" one--where you refine what works for you. That, and as previously stated, just a ton of time in the water.
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2006-12-21 6:17 PM in reply to: #630850 |
Master 1728 portland, or | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? Congratulations! Increasing frequency of sessions, increasing volume per session, and increasing intensity of sessions will all increase swim fitness and speed. However your stroke mechanics, and unfortunately genetics, will limit your ability to improve. You can't change your genetics, but you can improve your stroke mechanics. Find a coach, or a swim clinic in your area, and see what improvements you can make in your stroke. Video analysis can do wonders. I know there are plenty of good coaches in the Bay Area. One that I had an oppurtunity to work with at a clinic in Oregon is Chris Hauth. He's a former olympian and a top AG Ironman (won IM CdA this past year). He coaches for Performance Labs. Again, congrats on reaching the 2:00 milestone. BTW, I've gone sub 30 for a 2k pool swim, and I don't do flip turns. scott |
2006-12-21 6:24 PM in reply to: #630944 |
Champion 6627 Rochester Hills, Michigan | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? Vaiza - 2006-12-21 5:12 PM I was swimming around 2:00 or 2:02/100m for a good couple of months and couldn't get any faster. A few weeks ago, I was fortunate enough to be the only person to show up to a tri club swim, so I had one-on-one coaching for a full hour. The coach identified that my stroke was too streamlined.. too smooth. I was very precise and averaging 18-19 strokes per 25m. He told me to start turning over faster - and after a few trials, we found that 23 or 24 strokes per 25m was ideal for me. Since then, my times have steadily dropped: Last week, I did 1500m in 29:05... and I'm not even doing that kind of turnover 100% yet (I'm taking it gradually, as I have had rotator cuff issues in the past). 1) Swim, like Chris M suggested, in sets that push you. 2) Turn over, if you've got good form. 3) Flip turns don't matter, but if you can do 'em, it's a better workout. 4) Add upper body weights (feel free to flame away, Johnny), they'll help. BTW...I have the same issue. My TI stroke length gets me through 25m in 14 strokes, breathing every 3. But I'm faster at 16, breathing every 3/2 as needed. |
2006-12-21 6:25 PM in reply to: #630850 |
Member 42 | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? Of course you should perfect your turns the cleaner and stronger they are the better off you are. Also do you sprint your 100s? If not try, it thats what serious competitors do. If you cant sprint it find out if its either a muscular problem or cardio, and go from their. |
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2006-12-21 6:42 PM in reply to: #630850 |
Veteran 166 Denver, CO | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? I think I'm in the minority here, but I say do the flip turns. When you stop and turn around it provides too much of a break. I know that sounds knit picky, but it is different to do it with the flips and you will get more work out out of the time you spend in the pool. Have someone teach you and then spend one day in the pool just practicing. It feels real uncomfortable to do at first, especially pushing off with your face to the sky underwater, but just practice. Remember to breath out hard through your nose as you flip and push off. Otherwise you end up with water up your nose. good luck! |
2006-12-21 8:11 PM in reply to: #631074 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? rkreuser - 2006-12-21 6:24 PM 4) Add upper body weights (feel free to flame away, Johnny), they'll help. No need to flame. Just to point out that to keep on swimming will help a whole lot more. |
2006-12-21 9:38 PM in reply to: #630850 |
Extreme Veteran 394 North Vancouver, British Columbia | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? Take a few boxing classes then you'll be ready for triathlons mass swim starts. |
2006-12-22 8:30 AM in reply to: #630850 |
Supersonicus Idioticus 2439 Thunder Bay, ON | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? Two things: 1) DISTANCE PER STROKE!!! If you're not going 1:20/100m, you can still work on this. Heck, I improved one stroke per length yesterday going at 1:20/100m. Try swimming every 4th length with minimal stroke count and apply whatever works for you for the other 3 lengths. 2) SWIM FASTER (for shorter distances, that is). It's tough to learn how to swim 1:50/100m for 1000m if you've never have swum that fast (some competitive swimmers have this aparatus that makes them swim 50m in 20 sec so that they feel what it's like to go fast). Try doing 10x100m, starting the 100s on 2min 20 sec intervals, where you swim 2:05 for the first one, 2:00 for the next, 1:55, 1:50, then the next one float, repeat. |
2006-12-22 9:16 AM in reply to: #630850 |
Expert 950 London, UK | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? Don't forget to stretch. Your efficiency can improve a lot from being supple in your shoulders, back, chest and arms. And make sure you don't just do one long slog when you are in the water. Do sets, intervals etc. Oh and train lots. My PB for 100m freestyle when I was 18 year sold was 00:59:23 but I did train 15 hours a week. (I have no idea what it is now ) Your partner and kids probably wouldn't be to happy with that. Flip turns will definitely make you faster in a pool swim and you'll look very cool. |
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2006-12-22 9:24 AM in reply to: #630883 |
Champion 5495 Whizzzzzlandia | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? Yes! If you want to feel uncoordinated and goofy, no-wall flip turns are for you! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE |
2006-12-22 10:57 AM in reply to: #630850 |
Regular 54 | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? just thought i would throw in my .02, since i swam in college. it's unclear if you were able to swim 10x100m @2min pace, or just swam straight 1000m in 20min. if you swam 10x100m@2min, i would try to see if you can do [email protected] pace, the same for 400m or 500m distances. since you're a triathlete, and you've got a good base, you probably want to see if you can speed up your swim over longer distances, such as 200m, 400m, 500m. also if you're swimming longer intervals than 100's the flip turn is key, good for your abs, legs, and continuation of speed from wall to wall, rather than starting/stopping/resting at each wall. good luck and congrats! |
2006-12-22 11:28 AM in reply to: #631569 |
Expert 755 SF-Bay Area | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? whataboutjohnlee - 2006-12-22 8:57 AM just thought i would throw in my .02, since i swam in college. it's unclear if you were able to swim 10x100m @2min pace, or just swam straight 1000m in 20min. I'm glad you asked, because I'd like to clarify. It was a 1000m time trial (continuous swim). For my training purposes, I only consider important (perhaps incorrectly?) the pace you can hold over continuous 1000m+ distances. Oddly enough, I've actually never done a 10x100m, and would be curious what pace I could hold swimming that. I'm guessing a 1:40-1:50 pace, given sufficient rest between sets--though I know I'd be dying after about the 5th repetition. And, while we're on the topic of recommended sets. All my swim interval/set workouts have been 3~5x400m or 4~6x500m. So, at this point, should I start incorporation shorter sets or longer sets, or a combination of both?
Edited by guncollector 2006-12-22 11:33 AM |
2006-12-22 1:29 PM in reply to: #631331 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Swim: reached 2min/100m, what next? So Fresh So Clean - 2006-12-22 7:30 AM 2) SWIM FASTER (for shorter distances, that is). It's tough to learn how to swim 1:50/100m for 1000m if you've never have swum that fast (some competitive swimmers have this aparatus that makes them swim 50m in 20 sec so that they feel what it's like to go fast). Try doing 10x100m, starting the 100s on 2min 20 sec intervals, where you swim 2:05 for the first one, 2:00 for the next, 1:55, 1:50, then the next one float, repeat. I heard a story about Michael Phelps when I was at the olympic training center for a coaching class. We toured the pool (and swam in it), and they have a giant bungee type thing that runs the length of the pool. The swimmer wears it and it pulls them through the water at whatever pace they set it for, so that they can feel what it's like to swim that fast. When Phelps tried it on at least one occasion, it was set at world record pace, but he kept outswimming it. They figured the thing was broken because it wouldn't pull as fast as they had set it. But it turns out that he was just swimming faster than world record pace! |
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