General Discussion Triathlon Talk » bike lots = win, swim lots = ?? Rss Feed  
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2007-05-24 4:26 PM

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Subject: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??
I've read a lot on this website saying you need to ride a lot to get faster. I have personal experience with this and know it to be true. (the same thing is true for running imo). Does this philosophy apply to swimming? I'm a slow swimmer who gets lapped by fat guys and little kids. I swim 2-3 times a week regularly. If I swim tons will I get faster? And by tons i mean LSD. This is sans drills/etc. Getting a coach would be hard atm, reading some book/watching some video would only confuse me.
btw im a good runner/biker

and yes ive seen questions like this posted 100 times, but if i didnt repost it then everyone would be bored with no posting to do.


2007-05-24 4:41 PM
in reply to: #815987

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Champion
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Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??
Well, if you swim lots with a horrible stroke/form, you probably won't get much faster. Your not doing yourself much good, swimming lots with a horrible stroke. In this instance, get a coach.

If you swim lots with good form, you will get faster.

BUT... how much faster... and does it really matter in the scope of things?

For example, if you can go from a 2:00/100 yard to a 1:40/100 yard, over the scope of a 300 yard swim, you only gain 1:00 over other competitors. Honestly, that minute can easily be found by improving your bike speed and running.

If you are doing longer distance tri's, then going faster in the swim factors in a bit more, obviously.

Most people will say though, the amount of time you have to spend in the pool to get faster isn't really worth it. The time is better spent training for the bike and the run.
2007-05-24 4:43 PM
in reply to: #815987

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Edited by JeepFleeb 2007-05-24 4:44 PM
2007-05-24 4:58 PM
in reply to: #815987

Member
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Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??
danCC - 2007-05-24 3:26 PM

I've read a lot on this website saying you need to ride a lot to get faster. I have personal experience with this and know it to be true. (the same thing is true for running imo). Does this philosophy apply to swimming? I'm a slow swimmer who gets lapped by fat guys and little kids. I swim 2-3 times a week regularly. If I swim tons will I get faster? And by tons i mean LSD. This is sans drills/etc. Getting a coach would be hard atm, reading some book/watching some video would only confuse me.
btw im a good runner/biker

and yes ive seen questions like this posted 100 times, but if i didnt repost it then everyone would be bored with no posting to do.


Reading a book or watching videos really won't confuse you as much as you might think. It just takes some time to disect what the book says and to apply it to your swimming. Learning about proper form, proper kick, how to pull, etc. really does help in learning to swim efficiently. I went from swimming 300yards in over 10 minutes and completely out of breath to swimming 300yards in 7min hardly breathing hard at all - all in a couple of months. Not all that great comparatively speaking, but speed increased for me after learning proper form. Will it help me to win a race, no, but my goal right now is to do a tri without buring all my energy in the swim.

Edited by kbsublime 2007-05-24 4:59 PM
2007-05-24 4:59 PM
in reply to: #815987

Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??

All depends.  If you are a really slow swimmer, time spent in the pool might pay benefits, not only for time but to get you on the bike feeling less tired and fresher.  As your time gets faster, however, more swimming becomes less relevant/not worth the effort

As an example, it if your pace is 1:30 per 100, the energy it takes to get to 1:20 for an Olympic distance is probably not worth the extra effort to get roughly 3 minutes over that distance. 

2007-05-24 5:35 PM
in reply to: #815987

Master
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Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??
What if you practice alot in the pool and then suck at the open water swims? I wish I could practice OWS, but don't have a clean lake in the area.


2007-05-24 5:41 PM
in reply to: #816003

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Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??
KSH - 2007-05-24 4:41 PM
If you swim lots with good form, you will get faster.


Like KSH, long distances are great if your form is good. I don't believe it's a good idea for a starting swimmer to push their swimming past the point that they can keep their form together, though.

My recommendation would be to do repeats of a distance that you can swim with good form(you shouldn't be fresh, but you shouldn't have lost all feel for the water), using a set interval. Your goal is to improve your times by improving your form while keeping your effort the same, once your times plateau then double the distance and repeat. Eventually you'll be able to work some LSD in. An occasional long set will be good for making your stroke more efficient, but if you're not already a great distance swimmer they should be the exception and not the rule.

I've gone away from and come back to swimming probably...5 or 6 times, and this is what works best to build a base for me: I'll warm up going very slow, then time a 100 while fresh at a high moderate pace. I'll add about 15seconds to that time and make it my interval, then start swimming 100s getting 7-10s rest and focusing on pushing my stroke just a tad. Like I said above, I'll do that until my speed plateaus then I'll double the distance and repeat. It's kind of monotonous unless you can zone out and think about other things, but imho it's the best way to improve to a decent level in the pool.
2007-05-24 5:51 PM
in reply to: #815987

Champion
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Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??
Biking is a little different in that the bike ties you into your form. So in that regard, riding lots ingrains that good form and makes you more efficient and faster.

But in swimming, you're not tied into that good form. So if all you do is swim lots, you may well get (a little) faster, but it'll also just ingrain whatever bad form you're using (I'm not trying to say that YOU are using bad form, I'm just generalizing here -- mine sucked pretty badly for a long time). So it may be a matter of having to slow down to learn the good form first, and then swimming lots making sure you're using that good form. Then, when you get faster, you'll get LOTS faster.
2007-05-24 6:16 PM
in reply to: #816085

Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??

Swim lots means you come out of the water fresh and ready to take advantage of cycling lots.

For the "don't swim lots, but ride lots" result, see my Eagleman race report from last year. Tongue out

2007-05-24 7:37 PM
in reply to: #815987

New user
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Rockford, Illinois
Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??
hmmm, my form is probably bad, but I can swim for long periods with very little fatigue (40mins), but i get extremely bored. thx for the responses, maybe ill have to join a masters team . or buy a TI video/book ; ;

/story
my first first tri ever was a sprint last year and the swim was about 400-600 meters long (no one knew because they shortened it because the water was so cold), my time was 10.34mins, rank 459 outta around 750, bike rank =149, run rank = 66. my swim was 5mins slower than people around my run/bike times , which cost me huge in a sprint
2007-05-24 8:57 PM
in reply to: #816195

Regular
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Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??
danCC - 2007-05-24 7:37 PM

hmmm, my form is probably bad, but I can swim for long periods with very little fatigue (40mins), but i get extremely bored. thx for the responses, maybe ill have to join a masters team . or buy a TI video/book ; ;


very little fatigue combined with 40 minutes and your race splits = you're moving your arms through the water without a significant catch/pull

LSD would do you little good to fix that, you need to do intervals. Focus on catching the water out in front, pulling your body over your hand while keeping your elbow high, and finishing the stroke by extending your arm at the rear of your stroke


2007-05-24 9:09 PM
in reply to: #815987

Extreme Veteran
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Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??
Pros for swimming lots:-
- You can swim 6 days a week without overtraining as long as you're sensible. Try running or riding productively every day, you'll implode pretty quickly. Therefore you can safely add 4-6hrs a week of training. This is only going to help your overall shape. No surprise that so many top level Tri people have a swimming background of some description even if they're not "swimmers". This is because (personal view) of the aerobic engine they have been able to build over a long period of very heavy base training without training interuption due to injury.
- I think there's a limit on how fast you need to go... if you can come out of an Oly swim in around 25:00 and an IM swim around the 1:05-1:10 you'll be exiting with the bulk of finishers. This means that you've swum in the draft the whole time, meaning that for that pace you've used less energy than a 30min or 1:25 swim on your own. (These paces are for Aussie races, me experience in the UK and US would suggest that you can add 2mins for Oly times to be middle of the big pack).
- If you're exiting with these big groups onto the bike, you're likely to be with a group of people of simlar ability, this helps your pacing and you're likely to push harder throughout the bike and run than coming out around 30mins where there may be a couple of quick bikers but most people would be a little slower. When are you pushing harder? Overtaking a lot of people or seeing a couple of guys just in front of you who you want to stay in touch with? Same goes for finishing the bike with these.
- Swimming is the sport most responsive to technique development (these days I think running is a close second), therefore a technique focus and lots of time (or more importantly frequency) practicing good form can move you up quickly.
- Once you've built a base of swim technique over 2-3 years/seasons you can cut back then up the frequency into your build and bring speed on quickly relying on that well ingrained technique.

For you, (i'm guilty of a lack of training myself at the moment) 2-3 times a week is not enough to see real gains in the swim. My aim as I get back into training is my 3 squad sessions (2x fitness focused, 1x technique focused), 1-2 sessions on my own plus fortnightly or so 1-1 with a coach. While this focus hopefully get's me only 4mins (from 29 to 25 for an Oly swim) more importantly I hope this contributes more to my aim to go below 2:35 this year (need to find 15mins - 4mins on swim plus fresher takes 1min of the bike and 1min off the run. Leaving my 9mins to find elsewhere - doable. If I don't touch my swimming that leaves me 15mins to find on the bike and the run..
2007-05-24 11:12 PM
in reply to: #815987

Coach
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Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??
This doesn't really address your question, but as an alternative viewpoint...you should swim for the sake of enjoying swimming. If you're not enjoying it, you're probably doing something wrong (same with running & cycling). When your form is good adn you move through teh water effortlessly you enter a nice zone where time flies and you forget about your workout.

Have you seen the movie "2 minutes" where the mountain bike racer becomes a bike messenger? She constantly misses her pickups and dropoffs because she's so zoned out about just biking for the pure joy of biking she ends up outside of the city limits then has to sprint back to town to get the pickups...and she's still faster than the rest of the messenger dudes.

Swimming is the same way, I zone out when I swim, but only when i'm swimming with good form. The fact that a sport that I love (swimming) happens to be part of triathlon is a bonus for me.

So yeah, swim lots and ENJOY it, and you'll get faster. Swim lots and HATE IT, and you'll just hate swimming.
2007-05-25 9:43 AM
in reply to: #816109

Extreme Veteran
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Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??
Daremo - 2007-05-24 6:16 PM

Swim lots means you come out of the water fresh and ready to take advantage of cycling lots.

For the "don't swim lots, but ride lots" result, see my Eagleman race report from last year. Tongue out



Amen,

On my first tri (last month), I thought I had a pretty good swim (6:01 at 300 meter, OWS), I was one of the first 10, in my age group, out of the water. But, I was exhausted leaving the swim and took forever in T1, and it effected the rest of my race, especially my run. Had I just slowed down, and not gone bat crazy, I probably would have done the event at least 4 to 5 minutes faster.

Lessons learned: I swim intervals at what ever distance my next race is, and work on improving my form, not for speed so much, but for efficiency. With efficiency, I will have endurance left over for the bike and run (which is supposed to be my best area).
2007-05-25 9:46 AM
in reply to: #815987

Giver
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Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??
= great deltoids and lats.



(IMFLswim.jpg)



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2007-05-25 9:54 AM
in reply to: #815987

Master
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Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??
== not drowning.

Tho, I think my stroke is improving some, and I am surviving it better now.

~fatBoy
http://trifatboy.com


2007-05-25 10:22 AM
in reply to: #815987

Champion
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Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??

When I started tri training I literally couldn't swim a full lap in a 25 yard pool. I used the TI book and it helped get me to the point where I could do an open water swim in a half ironman. I was slow in the water and exhausted when I got out but I could do it.

I then did the following:
- invested $100 in 2 lessons with a local TI instructor.
- did the drills exclusively for a couple months
- was lucky enough to have a couple friends who are great swimmers spend some time advising me on my stroke.
- started doing the swim workouts from my training plan as written

This has made all the difference in the world. I'm a decent swimmer now and in my last 2 races I felt really good in the water for the first time and exited it feeling great. You don't necessarily need to get a coach, but a couple lessons from a good instructor or at least someone who already knows how to swim fast and efficiently can only help.

yes ive seen questions like this posted 100 times, but if i didnt repost it then everyone would be bored with no posting to do.

For everyone who posts a question that's been answered before, there are 100 or more people who have the same question. The value isn't in having the same information repeated, it's that for everyone who posts the question there are 100 or more people who are wondering the same thing right then and who get a lot out of realizing that there's someone else, right now, who just like them is wondering about the subject. There's a lot of value in letting people know that they're not alone with what ever it is they're wondering/worrying/freaking out about. It also gives new people the opportunity to answer the question, to pass on their experience. You could probably get the information from a book but you don't get a sense of community from a book.

One of the things that draws me to triathlon is that while it's a solitary sport it's very much a shared experience.

2007-05-25 1:38 PM
in reply to: #815987

New user
68
2525
Rockford, Illinois
Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??
thx for the great responses, I planning on ordering some TI stuff this weekend, step 1, we'll see in a few months
2007-05-25 2:20 PM
in reply to: #815987

Extreme Veteran
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Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??
Most great triathletes come from a swimming background. Take that for whatever it is worth.
2007-05-25 2:31 PM
in reply to: #815987

Champion
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Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??
Well swim is not always about speed but is about how fresh you come out of the water also.

If you are completely exhausted or if you come out with energy is a huge difference. Swim lots is always good unless your form is just that bad. If you do LSD swims I would make sure you focus on your form. I have done a 5k in a pool and I was not bored because the whole time I am thinking about my form.

I am not a great swimmer but when I was swimming 2 miles a day 3x a week my swimming times were alot better but more importantly is how I felt coming out of the water on shorter days.
2007-05-25 2:42 PM
in reply to: #815987

Elite
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Muskego, WI
Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??

I will share my experience.  When I started if I had to do an olympic swim, I'd make sure with every workout I was swimming 1500-2000 yds straight.  That's how you make sure you can do it, right?

Basically I was slow.

I read a thread on here from a real, expert swimmer, that stated outside of Time Trials or other monthly-type tests, she NEVER did sets of more than 500yds, because she built fatigue, she would grove in poor form habits.  She suggested on that post (assuming you can't get a coach or masters involved) to swim 50s-100s over and over again, practicing different things, like pressing your chest down, splashing the surface a bit with the feet, extending your arm, keeping elbows up, etc. and looking at the feedback in terms of your time.  Try to incorporate different things that worked in terms of time improvement.

That really helped me.  I'm no fish, but I'm more confident and have shave a lot of time off doing that.



2007-05-25 3:01 PM
in reply to: #817442

Elite
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Denver, Colorado
Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??

chirunner134 - 2007-05-25 2:31 PM Well swim is not always about speed but is about how fresh you come out of the water also. If you are completely exhausted or if you come out with energy is a huge difference. Swim lots is always good unless your form is just that bad. If you do LSD swims I would make sure you focus on your form. I have done a 5k in a pool and I was not bored because the whole time I am thinking about my form. I am not a great swimmer but when I was swimming 2 miles a day 3x a week my swimming times were alot better but more importantly is how I felt coming out of the water on shorter days.

How long did the 5K take you? That's a little on the insane side.

2007-05-25 3:08 PM
in reply to: #817492

Champion
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Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??
It took me about 2:15.
2007-05-26 4:37 AM
in reply to: #815987

Veteran
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Ames IA
Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??
I know you said that getting a coach would be hard but....... I hired a coach for just one 30 minute session (there is no masters swimming where I am.) I feel like I learned more in that 30 minute session than I have in all the research I have been doing on swimming in the last year. Having a good coach there to correct my form immediatly helped me more than reading a book or watching a video and trying. It only cost me $30 for the session and the coach is a former assistant coach for Iowa State University (they cut the program) so I think I got more than my money's worth. I am already more comfortable and faster from just one session. Look around for a coach and give at least one session a try. However if you are looking for some good videos I have heard good things about

THe Swim: Technique and Training for Triathletes - An Outside-In Approach to Freestyle DVD
by Trip Hedrik (Iowa State University)
http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/swimshop/shop_detail.asp?iPid=...

Richard Quick (Stanford) - Becoming a Champion Swimmer - Freestyle DVD
http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/swimshop/shop_detail.asp?iPid=...

Edited by TriCP 2007-05-26 4:43 AM
2007-05-26 8:06 AM
in reply to: #815987

Extreme Veteran
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Arnhem
Subject: RE: bike lots = win, swim lots = ??
I took some coaching advice a few months ago, just 2-3 sessions in the pool with a coach giving me advice to correct my poor stroke.
Since then I have been training more. gone from 2-3 times per week to 3-4 and training about 15 minutes axtra per session.
My speed as improved a little, I only hope de gain about 1 minute at my upcomming olympic, but I come out of the water much fresher. At least in my swim-bike brick trainings I am noticing a great difference. I home I feal this at the next race too.

So I think the benefit above speed is efficiency!
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