General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swimming improvement - frequency or duration Rss Feed  
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2007-09-12 4:45 PM

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Malvern, England
Subject: Swimming improvement - frequency or duration
So, I have been patient all year and swum twice a week to maintain my swimming whilst I trained for an IM. I always had the endurance but my speed frustrated me no end. However, that was put on the back burner to focus on endurance for bike and run.
Now I have come through the IM I want to really improve my swimming over the winter period. I have been told by tri coach that my technique is OK and I also swim with masters group twice a week (75mins each session)
So for me the big question is how to improve? Is it just time in the water like time in the saddle?
And more specifically should I up the length of my current sessions or would I see more benefit doing more frequent but less time sessions. Or do I need to do something out of the pool?
The workouts I do with masters have all the usual things in - drills, speed sessions, longer set sessions, pull, kick etc.

All advice greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Jackie
PS For your info over longer swims (1000m or so) I am about 1:45 to 1:50 per 100m, a stand alone 100, about 1:35. I would love to get to a 1:30 per 100m level.


2007-09-12 4:54 PM
in reply to: #962348

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Swimming improvement - frequency or duration
Jackie, with 100 times like that... you should be winning your AG coming out of the water.

Looks like you have a solid stroke from those times you posted up. You just need speed with your endurance and that comes from time spent in the pool. Swimming 3-5 days a week would be a good idea.

But you know, if you cut your 100 time down by 15 seconds... over 4200 yards (roughly and IM swim?)... you will save yourself about 6 minutes.

Now, is all the time you are going to spend in the pool worth saving 6 minutes? Or can that 6 minutes on the course be found on the bike or the run?

To get faster at swimming take a lot of time in the pool... and with your times already good... it might be a an idea to look to gain that time somewhere else and focusing your training on that.

Just a suggestion though.
2007-09-12 5:10 PM
in reply to: #962355

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Expert
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Malvern, England
Subject: RE: Swimming improvement - frequency or duration
Thanks for your feedback! Your reasoning was EXACTLY why I did nothing but go into swim maintenance mode for my IM training. I have no plans for another IM at the moment and this I guess is a personal bugbear to me. To beginners I look fast but amongst swimmers I am not! I always saw myself as a swimmer (though not college level - we didn't really have that so much in UK ) and to now find I am only mid pack at masters at best is highly frustrating.
I hear you on frequency though.
2007-09-12 5:32 PM
in reply to: #962348

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Subject: RE: Swimming improvement - frequency or duration

I'm certainly no swimming expert, but I think increasing your distance and frequency will help.  Two examples:

1) This year, I went from a 2:11/100m pace to a 1:52/100m pace by swimming 2000-3000m workouts, 3-4 times a week.  In my olympic distance races, this resulted in a savings of almost 5 minutes (32:49 to 28:05).  I think that the tri club/master's swims (intervals) over the winter helped, but the long open water swims seemed to show me the most improvement. 

2) A friend of mine did a 25:17 1500m OW race (1:41/100m) last July.  Over the next year, he swam 4-5 times a week, doing distances of at least 2000m each workout - intervals in the pool over the winter, switching to mostly open water swims in the spring.  This July, he did the same race in 22:57 (1:31/100m).  He had to work a lot harder to reduce his pace than I did, because he started out at a much faster pace to begin with.

Anyway, I think that anyone's swim times would benefit from increased frequency and duration.  If you can do a swim or two with master's, and at least one long steady swim (or two) each week, you'll come out ahead.

2007-09-12 5:37 PM
in reply to: #962355

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Subject: RE: Swimming improvement - frequency or duration

But you know, if you cut your 100 time down by 15 seconds... over 4200 yards (roughly and IM swim?)... you will save yourself about 6 minutes. Now, is all the time you are going to spend in the pool worth saving 6 minutes?

Not sure if I'm following the math here.  Isn't a savings of 15 seconds/100m over 3800m (Ironman distance) equal to 9.5 minutes?

2007-09-12 6:21 PM
in reply to: #962348

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Swimming improvement - frequency or duration
First of all, congratulations on a solid swim at IMLP - there are many athletes that would love to swim that fast on two sessions a week

You can definitely improve your swimming like biking or running by putting in the time. To see solid improvements, I would try to swim 4x/week for at least 3000 per session. I would start by adding an extra swim of around 2000-2500 and then build that to 3000+; once you are okay with that, add another swim to get to 4 and build that up the same way. At this point you will be swimming 12+k/week which is going to be more than many (probably most) triathletes are putting in and should allow you to move towards your goal of 1:30/100.

Remember to continue doing drill work as technique will help you swim faster than brute force ever will. For most athletes who are willing to put in the time and work on perfecting their technique, 1:30/100 is attainable and will put you at or close to the FOP during most swims.

Good luck,

Shane


2007-09-12 7:32 PM
in reply to: #962348

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Master
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Flagstaff and Phoenix, AZ
Subject: RE: Swimming improvement - frequency or duration
I swim at about the same pace as you and am content with it for now. But I also feel slow compared to "real" swimmer, especially if they can also do flip-turns

But about 4 weeks ago I started throwing in some 200 yard sets with paddles (2 times in a 2000-yard steady swim workout) and noticed a slight improvement in speed pretty quickly, like after a week or so.

Then the semester started and I actually skipped most swimming sessions but I definitely plan on starting the paddle stuff again. Maybe you could benefit from some swim-specific strength work (like with paddles or specific weight training exercises). I have a pretty wimpy upper body and it seems like that did the trick for me...
2007-09-12 7:38 PM
in reply to: #962348

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Swimming improvement - frequency or duration
jackjack - 2007-09-12 4:45 PM So, I have been patient all year and swum twice a week to maintain my swimming whilst I trained for an IM. I always had the endurance but my speed frustrated me no end. However, that was put on the back burner to focus on endurance for bike and run. Now I have come through the IM I want to really improve my swimming over the winter period. I have been told by tri coach that my technique is OK and I also swim with masters group twice a week (75mins each session) So for me the big question is how to improve? Is it just time in the water like time in the saddle? And more specifically should I up the length of my current sessions or would I see more benefit doing more frequent but less time sessions. Or do I need to do something out of the pool? The workouts I do with masters have all the usual things in - drills, speed sessions, longer set sessions, pull, kick etc. All advice greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jackie PS For your info over longer swims (1000m or so) I am about 1:45 to 1:50 per 100m, a stand alone 100, about 1:35. I would love to get to a 1:30 per 100m level.
unless you avg 1:30 min/100yds for a 1-1.5K time trial you will be better served by working on your technique. of course swimming frequency (4-5x a week) and durantion 2000-3000 yds or more per session will help but still TECHNIQUE should remain your focus. Get your swim analyzed or get a coach/fast swimmer help out so you know what drills to work on and each session devote 200-400 yds for drills. once you get that down, you can work on speed...
2007-09-12 7:43 PM
in reply to: #962355

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Swimming improvement - frequency or duration

KSH - 2007-09-12 4:54 PM Jackie, with 100 times like that... you should be winning your AG coming out of the water. Looks like you have a solid stroke from those times you posted up. You just need speed with your endurance and that comes from time spent in the pool. Swimming 3-5 days a week would be a good idea. But you know, if you cut your 100 time down by 15 seconds... over 4200 yards (roughly and IM swim?)... you will save yourself about 6 minutes. Now, is all the time you are going to spend in the pool worth saving 6 minutes? Or can that 6 minutes on the course be found on the bike or the run? To get faster at swimming take a lot of time in the pool... and with your times already good... it might be a an idea to look to gain that time somewhere else and focusing your training on that. Just a suggestion though.
omg, I don't even know where to begin...

winning AG with those time? where, cuz certainly not a big/competitive races? He/she needs speed and endurance with those times? spending time in the water is a waste cuz droping his/her avg 15 sec would only yield 6 min saving over an IM distance? what about his bigger aerobic base? what about the little energy spend in the 1st leg of the race and extr energy availabe for bike/run? *sigh*

2007-09-12 8:18 PM
in reply to: #962502

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Master
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Subject: RE: Swimming improvement - frequency or duration
amiine - 2007-09-12 8:38 PM

jackjack - 2007-09-12 4:45 PM So, I have been patient all year and swum twice a week to maintain my swimming whilst I trained for an IM. I always had the endurance but my speed frustrated me no end. However, that was put on the back burner to focus on endurance for bike and run. Now I have come through the IM I want to really improve my swimming over the winter period. I have been told by tri coach that my technique is OK and I also swim with masters group twice a week (75mins each session) So for me the big question is how to improve? Is it just time in the water like time in the saddle? And more specifically should I up the length of my current sessions or would I see more benefit doing more frequent but less time sessions. Or do I need to do something out of the pool? The workouts I do with masters have all the usual things in - drills, speed sessions, longer set sessions, pull, kick etc. All advice greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jackie PS For your info over longer swims (1000m or so) I am about 1:45 to 1:50 per 100m, a stand alone 100, about 1:35. I would love to get to a 1:30 per 100m level.

unless you avg 1:30 min/100yds for a 1-1.5K time trial you will be better served by working on your technique. of course swimming frequency (4-5x a week) and durantion 2000-3000 yds or more per session will help but still TECHNIQUE should remain your focus. Get your swim analyzed or get a coach/fast swimmer help out so you know what drills to work on and each session devote 200-400 yds for drills. once you get that down, you can work on speed...


Agree with Amiine - work on your technique now. Swimming more often for longer periods of time will benefit you but getting a coach to look at your stroke and then working on what he/she says will benefit you the most right away.
2007-09-12 9:01 PM
in reply to: #962412

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Swimming improvement - frequency or duration
Vaiza - 2007-09-12 5:37 PM

But you know, if you cut your 100 time down by 15 seconds... over 4200 yards (roughly and IM swim?)... you will save yourself about 6 minutes. Now, is all the time you are going to spend in the pool worth saving 6 minutes?

Not sure if I'm following the math here. Isn't a savings of 15 seconds/100m over 3800m (Ironman distance) equal to 9.5 minutes?



I'll go with what you have. My math sucks.


2007-09-12 9:05 PM
in reply to: #962505

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Swimming improvement - frequency or duration
amiine - 2007-09-12 7:43 PM

KSH - 2007-09-12 4:54 PM Jackie, with 100 times like that... you should be winning your AG coming out of the water. Looks like you have a solid stroke from those times you posted up. You just need speed with your endurance and that comes from time spent in the pool. Swimming 3-5 days a week would be a good idea. But you know, if you cut your 100 time down by 15 seconds... over 4200 yards (roughly and IM swim?)... you will save yourself about 6 minutes. Now, is all the time you are going to spend in the pool worth saving 6 minutes? Or can that 6 minutes on the course be found on the bike or the run? To get faster at swimming take a lot of time in the pool... and with your times already good... it might be a an idea to look to gain that time somewhere else and focusing your training on that. Just a suggestion though.
omg, I don't even know where to begin...

winning AG with those time? where, cuz certainly not a big/competitive races? He/she needs speed and endurance with those times? spending time in the water is a waste cuz droping his/her avg 15 sec would only yield 6 min saving over an IM distance? what about his bigger aerobic base? what about the little energy spend in the 1st leg of the race and extr energy availabe for bike/run? *sigh*



Well, I am not a coach. So your opinion is more valuable here. I certainly respect that.

I just gave my input that is all.

My feedback on winning her AG was coming from the fact that I pretty much come in top 3 out of the water in my races and my pool 100's might be at those times... but my OW is not. I will do around a 2:00, 100... and yes, somehow I do come out of the water top 3, 95% of the time.

For triathletes, she has good swim times. For a competitive swimmer she does not. But she is a triathlete.
2007-09-12 10:35 PM
in reply to: #962348

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Master
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Flagstaff and Phoenix, AZ
Subject: RE: Swimming improvement - frequency or duration
When you guys talk about pace I always see 1:30/100 as the benchmark. Is that for both women and men? If not, what's the benchmark for women? When are women considered fast enough for IM training, don't need to work on technique, etc.?

Is this a hijack?

Edited by SauseEnte 2007-09-12 10:35 PM
2007-09-13 7:22 AM
in reply to: #962681

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Expert
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Malvern, England
Subject: RE: Swimming improvement - frequency or duration
Thanks everyone for all your input

For your info I am a girl. Not that it matters from a swimming speed time generally (ladies can be just as fast as men!) but KSH you are right - in my local OW tri's I am one of the faster swimmers. A numbers thing I guess with less women etc. It is great to have an opinion from a similar level triathlete

amine - as a good swimmer I certainly value your opinion, as do I the others that say "work on technique" to get to this magic 1:30/100. I am actually not a huge way off that if you convert metres to yards (I want to get to the metres version though ). The point being, I have had my stroke looked at (even underwater) and my masters coach says I look fine too - she says it is just a matter of trying tiny changes - almost invisible to a watcher and seeing how they feel/ how they translate to speed. I do work on technique and drills as most masters clubs do. But, I am not getting faster so, assuming my technique is OK I really wanted to know whether it made any difference between frequency in pool or whether total time was more important.

To conclude from all posts so far then it looks like I have to do both! I have my last tri of the season coming up in a couple of weekends. After that I will try swim focus for a while and try and add a couple more sessions of 2000 to 3000 metres in a week for a total of 4.

2007-09-13 7:28 AM
in reply to: #962681

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Malvern, England
Subject: RE: Swimming improvement - frequency or duration
SauseEnte - 2007-09-12 11:35 PM

When you guys talk about pace I always see 1:30/100 as the benchmark. Is that for both women and men? If not, what's the benchmark for women? When are women considered fast enough for IM training, don't need to work on technique, etc.?

Is this a hijack?


From a personal point of view (and as the original poster!) I had the endurance at the pace I was at and it was effortless to swim long distances at that pace so I just maintained my swimming with a couple of sessions a week. I think your question is really an individual one - always work on technique - even the really fast swimmers still do that. I guess the speed for IM training is so that you can make the cut off times!

Jackie (a woman)
2007-09-13 7:52 AM
in reply to: #962681

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Champion
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Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Swimming improvement - frequency or duration
In my opinion, both men and women should be able to get under the 1:30/100m mark as swimming is so heavily focused on technique as opposed to strength. Again, many triathletes do not spend enough time in the pool in order to realize this level but with a few months (or an off-season) dedicated to swimming, most will be able to achieve this standard.

As for training for an IM swim - I wouldn't say that there is a specific swim time that you should use as a benchmark to start training for IM. Rather, it should be an overall consideration of you fitness level and progress in the sport as a whole.

Shane


2007-09-13 8:32 AM
in reply to: #962878

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Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: Swimming improvement - frequency or duration

Here's the typical time range where you would have to be to come out of the water in the first few people of the AG at a competitive race:

Oly. - 20 - 22 minutes (sub 20 in a really strong field)

HIM - 27 - 30 minutes

IM - 50 - 55 minutes (sub 50 in a really strong field)

Those are all in the 1:10 - 1:20 range .......

If it were me knowing that I could maintain 1:40/100m I would jsut make sure that I could maintain that level and focus on my other limiters whether they were the bike or the run.  With the times you already put out you are coming out of the water in the upper portion of the field.  The goal should be to sustain that placing and improve upon it with the bike and run.

First out of the water rarely means first to finish ..... (although I'd kill for your split times).



Edited by Daremo 2007-09-13 8:40 AM
2007-09-13 1:00 PM
in reply to: #962348

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Lethbridge, Alberta
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Subject: RE: Swimming improvement - frequency or duration
jackjack - 2007-09-12 3:45 PM
...
All advice greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Jackie
PS For your info over longer swims (1000m or so) I am about 1:45 to 1:50 per 100m, a stand alone 100, about 1:35. I would love to get to a 1:30 per 100m level.


Is this common, this spread between longer distance pace and stand alone 100 pace? It seems very tight to me, but I'm not an experienced swimmer and only have my own times to compare. In tri events, I'm always over 2:00 per 100m so far but during the spring this year I managed a best stand alone 100m of 1:28. From that I would guess Jackie has better form but not as much strength to apply for the short bursts. Would more strength work, sprinting or perhaps paddles, possibly be a key to breaking through her plateau?
2007-09-13 3:00 PM
in reply to: #962348

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Master
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Subject: RE: Swimming improvement - frequency or duration

I've always heard that speed sets will make you faster.  5x200, 10x100, 10x50...  Certainly you will gain sprint strength.  Combine that with sessions that focus on distance and technique, that's a formula that will get your times down.  My personal experience is that my swim times improve if I can swim 3x to 4x per week.  2x will maintain.  When I was swimming lots and doing a weekly sprint set like above for several weeks, I was able to do a set of 1:20-1:25 / 100m pace on a 2:00 interval.  I could probably sustain a ~1:35/100m pace on a 1500m swim at that point.  That was down from about a 1:45-1:50 pace previous to that.

As much as I've wanted to get my times down again in the pool, personally I stand to gain way more time in a race on the bike and run so I focus my training there.  Just maintaining with 2 good swims a week has me at a 25-minute short course mile, which works fine for me.

I remember swimming next to a gal once that was holding a 1:10/100m pace on long sets.  She's one of the fastest distance swimmers that I recall personally seeing, and she told me that she'd been a scholarship swimmer at some big university (Texas?).

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