100K ultra and IM in same season?

Don't you "hate" when an idea like that burrows into your head? 

Some people might "hate" it but I have a feeling you're like most of us fellow endurance athletes and your "hate" turns to "love".

It just goes to prove that "there's a thin line between love and hate."

(sorry, not qualified to opine as I've never done an ultra)

I just did it...but only a 50 miler 2 weekends ago after doing IM WI last month.  I only wanted to do the 50 as a way to qualify for the lottery for the 2009 Western States 100.  No way would I have done it before the IM though.  Attempting Kona qualification takes precedence for me. 

Steve, you've shown that you can do the work with your IM experience.  A lot depends on what your goals are for the ultra (just finish?) and the IM (KQ??).  If your IM goals are not too lofty for next year (whatever that means for your situation) it can be done.  I didn't put in a lot of miles after IM WI to get ready for the ultra.  But, I just wanted to survive it, not race it, in under 11 hours (criteria for WS 100).  I played it very conservatively, walked all of the hills, and ended up with 8:52.  Good luck.

Thanks for the advice, guys.

My goals for either event would not be particularly lofty.  The ultra would be about the experience...the journey.  I think that's why it appeals to me.  Just like my first IM, I had no idea what to expect, no idea how my body and mind would respond.  I think my soul is searching for another challenge like that.  A little diversion into unknown territory.

Never having done anything like a 100K run, no sense in thinking I'd be going there to hammer it.  My first conservative penciling on the ultra tells be something in the 12 hour range might be a reasonable target?  That'd be about 70% running @ 10 min/mi and 30% walking at 16 min/mi...er, something like that.

My goals for IM won't be much different than it's been in the past...just do my best with what I've got.  For me, that's been something in the 12 hour range as a target.  I've found I can get to 12-12.5 hour IM fitness on pretty light training volume, and I don't particularly expect to significantly better that next year.  I don't mind giving up some time on my IM in order to accomplish the ultra.

I'm 100% on-board with the suggestion to stick to trails and soft surfaces as much as possible for my running.  I did just that this year, and for the most part it worked really well for me.  I've recently started adding yoga to my routine 2 to 3 times per week, in hopes the resulting improved flexibility will keep me healthier overall. 

I think I'll start putting together a high level training plan and see if it looks reasonable.  I guess that's where the journey begins.

Thanks again!

 -Steve

p.s.  Hey Birkie, congrats on the 50 miler.  So, you're in for the WS lottery?  Do you happen to know if they'd accept a 100K at a pace at least as fast as required for the 50 mi qual time as a qualifier?  The event I have in mind is the Kettle Moraine 100K.  Seems like if you could do a 100K in, say 13.5 hours our less, that'd at least equal the 50 mi qual requirement. 

Thanks - race report is up:  http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=94806

I replied to your PM, but for the benefit of others interested in the WS 100....basically, finish a 50 miler in under 11 hours, or 100k in under 14 hours, or finish a 100 miler, or do 3 x 50 milers within the qualifying period and within the race cutoff but must be under 12 hours each.  There are no specific races identified as qualifying races.

I don't think I'll put in for the 2008 lottery because I don't want to take the chance of getting picked and then have a June 100 miler interfere with my KQ attempt at IM WI 2008 a couple months later.  Assuming they keep the same dates for the qualifying period as current, the 2009 qualifying period would be Oct 1, 2007 to Nov 3, 2008.  So, my race from 2 weeks ago should be good for 2009.  They have 369 slots and usually get 1000 to 1500 applications.  On the other hand, maybe I should apply in 2008 and hope I don't get picked, because they have a "2 strikes and you're automatically in for the 3rd lottery attempt" policy.  Decisions, decisions...deadline is Nov. 8

Jim, I can see you doing well at the 100-miler, BUT, I'd much rather be cheering a finely-tuned and top-of-your-game you on at IM Moo 2008.  Don't risk it.

Hi Steve.  I too felt the siren call of the ultras after doing my first IM distance race earlier this year.  As other have said, it depends on your goals.  For me, I'm more interested in the challenge of longer rather than faster and I think that is a big appeal of ultras to me.  likely want to work your way up to a 100k, of course, with at least a 50K and perhaps a 50-miler before (most didn't start with a half-IM or IM distance as their first tri.).  Personally, I'd say 3 months is plenty of time before an IM to recover from an ultra, but, as you said, YMMV; your history of running injuries, does not bode well for ultras, esp. on light training volume (sounds like a potential recipe for injury).  Like with tris, you have to respect the distance and because ultras are so repetitive and in a sport that does the most pounding on your body, it needs to be respected as well.

My story: I did Vineman in August, my first IM distance race.  I only just started thinking about doing ultras in September, so I was relying on the fitness I had gained training for and doing Vineman (to be fair, I was an off and on runner before doing tris and running is still my strength).  I did my first ultra, a 50K in early October and 3 weeks later did my first 12-hour run (I was also using this as a Western States 100 qualifier) where I did 58 miles (that included walking the last 13 miles).  I have two more ultras this year (a 50K and a 50-miler), so I'm doing ultras about 3 weeks apart, however, my last tri was in early September.  I hope to do the Western States 100 next year (or at least a 100 miler) and I'm already signed up for 2 IMs (Lanzarote and Wisconsin - maybe we'll meet there!).  So, I'm counting on being able to juggle IMs and ultras next year.

-double posted for some reason instead of editing previous post.

The only other thing to factor in is that ultras tend to be on trails that will not be as fast as road running (but also not as repetitive stress on your body).  What's your marathon time?  What's the elevation on the 100K?

At the 12-hour event I did recently, only 1 of the 50+ runners did more than 100K/62 mi and this was on a completely flat course.  Granted, many stopped at 50 miles since that was all that was required for the WS qualifier.

Yes, the race I have in mind is a trail run.  I've taken a great liking to trail running this year, so that aspect actually appeals to me.  Trail running seems to work much better for me than running too many miles on pavement.

I know the area where they do this run because I mountain bike there sometimes.  It's an area called the Kettle Moraine, and as the name would suggest, it's an area with lots of hills forged by glaciers.  No mountains, but lots and lots of ups and downs.  The 100 miler has 12K feet of climbing, and the 100K matches the first 62 miles of the 100 miler, so quite a bit of up and down.

I haven't run a standalone marathon for awhile.  My marathon PR is 3:18 back in 2002.  My IM run splits have ranged from 3:37 to 4:29.  But, my time for the ultra is not that important to me.  I just want to see if I can cover the distance.  I realize due to the terrain, I can't really compare road racing paces to the pace I could expect at the ultra.

Thanks for this post, and the one below.  That's quite a schedule you have for yourself for the rest of this year and on through next year.  I need more of an off season myself.  Good luck in all your upcoming monster events :-)  Perhaps we'll meet at IMWI.

-Steve