Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk? (Page 3)

Costs are somewhat irrelevant in this scenario, as the costs are already sunk (photos are already taken). I'm not sure I agree that her business would be adversely affected if it were to get out that she is willing to negotiate - in fact, her business could significantly improve if the number of orders increases enough to outweigh the lower price per customer. Lastly, the OP is not forcing the photographer to accept a deal, he is simply allowing her the option of considering an alternative... she gets the final say. JMHO.

 just curious now.. is she actually mailing you photo's... I guess it's my bad on thinking that she was mailing a CD of the photos so you could do whatever with.      

Say, for example, that the photographer says... "okay, I'll make this exception for you. I'll take your $50 instead of $100." Then, one of your co-racers says "hey, I want that, too." And another and another. Now, she's got people demanding, in essence, that she change her pricing structure--and earn less money for the same amount of work.

If she's charging $100, and folks are paying it... why open the door for you? You make one exception, you can end up making a lot. No negotiations means no compromise unless it's on her terms.

While some business will barter/haggle, many will not. So, in answer to your question...there are quite a few business models that your zero dollars ends up being worth more than your fifty.

She has a 4 photo (prints) package (can't remember what it is....5X7's??) for $49.99.  I'm sure there's some shipping in there, too.  I'm agreeing to purchse this package IF she will simply email me 8 (of 11) files I'd like to keep. 

She makes her money on the photo package (if she accepts the deal).  The "rest" of the deal costs her 1min. (attaching the files to an email).

So.....she gets $50 or nothing.  I'll hold NO hard feelings if she doesn't accept.  But, she'll hold none of my money.  I'm OK, either way.

Edited by nc452010 2010-06-23 10:58 AM

I'm suprised she doesn't offer a digital package option, all the companies that take pics at local races around here do.

This user's post has been ignored.

Isn't EVERY pricing structure based, in some way, on peoples' un-interest? You have to charge the interested parties enough to make up for the ones who are not.

And, as an aside: Lots of photographers will let you buy prints--but NOT let you have the negatives or the digital files for exactly the reason you've stated you want them: disseminating them to family and friends. As an artist, that is their product to sell/give away. You handing it out or using it all over, is tantamount to stealing.

What you're asking for--photo files--is MORE valuable than prints. And your offering to pay her less than their value.

See above: the issue of e-mailing you images is that the image file (or negative, in the olden days ;-)), is worth far, far more then the print. It's not about the cost of the effort--it's about the cost of the rights to disseminate.

Their "value" is what I'm willing to pay for them (I don't think she'll have anyone else wanting my photos).

$0 is worth more than $50?  For a product that is only marketable to ONE person?  IMO, she sets what she WANTS for them.  The ultimate consumer determines the actual VALUE of the product (especially when it's proprietary).

Disseminate????  Dude...you do know we're talking about photos of ME....lol!  She didn't snap a shot of Ali KO-ing Frazier, I'm trying to snipe for a bargain! 

Edited by nc452010 2010-06-23 11:14 AM

Just to be clear here.  You are offering to buy 4 photos at her list price ONLY if she GIVES you the digital images for free.  So you are not paying list here for anything.  No problem with that, it's your offer.  And she can choose to accept or decline.



It's only a problem in your mind.  She is running a business and does not have to sell you things at her marginal cost.  If you don't thin her price is "fair", then you can make an offer you do (which you have done) or not buy.


Back to your original question, you are not being a jerk by making an offer to her.  You may be a jerk if you insinuated that she would be stupid for not accepting your offer.  There are potentially good reasons for her not to do so.  But she may also find your offer reasonable.  Good luck.

you're talking about having the pics emailed to you as if that differs from the CD option. It doesn't.

The CD has nothing to do with the $90 - she's charging you for obtaining the jpg files. She doesn't care whether she emails them to you or provides them on a CD; a CD costs maybe 5 cents. What she's selling for that $90 is the jpg's, and nothing else - regardless of how she gets them to you (email, CD, whatever). Your proposition then, is that she give you her $90 package for free, in exchange for you paying $50 for a $50 package. You'd be better off just offering $50 for the jpg's - at least then she's not out the time / cost of providing you prints.

That said, I wouldn't pay her anything (but also wouldn't bother asking her to come down on price). Asking certainlty doesn't make you a jerk, but I'd bet she definitely says no.

 that's what confused me,   sending photo's  Wow!!


eta-- to the OP I don't think you are being a jerk by offering.   this is one of those threads that goes all over the place which some emotions running around.
now if you are Telling her "I'm buying this and you have to this in return"  well that is a bit rude.

congrats on your race... sometimes we forget that


Edited by Gaarryy 2010-06-23 11:21 AM

exactly.


As a sports photographer, i think some things need to change. either the quality needs to go up (sorry but just owning a nice camera is not really producing great work, go look at brightroom, or a lot of the people that say they can take aweosme race photos. its easy to shoot one or two people but standing outside all day nailing all 1500 that go by, AND having them look good in a very very hard thing to do for most people.

now that said, quality in most race photos blows. the photographer could walk 2 min out onto the bike course but they would rather sit at the entrance to transition. i have seen about 45 photos of me getting into my shoes on the bike. not ONE of me from the side in my aerobars.

so i think it would deff be a in a lot of peoples interest to A- offer some sort of deal on low res files (most people just want a photo for facebook/on here), B- some sort of pick and choose digital package, C- some serious high quality work that is worth paying that for.




so instead of generic race photos, how would you guys like to see photos like this offered? (check the links below)

2010 american TTT (link to the '09 race is at the bottom)
2009 Boulder peak pro race: http://www.triathlonshots.com/BoulderTriathlon.html
Some randoms: http://davidsavoiesports.blogspot.com/

So what was the question again?

Since we've devolved into talking about general business principles, loosely tied to this scenario, there are any number of scenarios where taking $0 is better than taking $50, from the perspective of the business. If the business determines that charging less (or allowing you to pay less) would result in overall lower revenue, then they are better off without your $50. Simply being willing to accept offers lower than list price sets a precedent that many companies don't want to deal with.

Think of a business like Gucci or Louis Vuitton - they could surely sell more handbags if they weren't charging $900. The relevant question is - if they dropped the price by half, would they sell more than twice as many?

I know this situation is different because nobody else would buy pictures of you, so I see where you are coming from with the logic about $50 being better than nothing - it's not like someone else is going to come along and pay $50 or $90 or any amount for pics of you. So it probably just comes down to an business decision about setting the precedent for accepting offers that differ from list price.

Yes, $0 could be worth more than $50 when viewed in relation to the photographer's entire business.  As others have said, if accepting your offer of $50 sets a precedent that compels them to provide discounts to future customers, then accepting it could cost them thousands of $ in future sales.

To your original question, no, you're not being a jerk.  You're making an offer, and it's up to them to accept, decline, or counter.  There's nothing wrong with that.

What many consumers and business owners don't realize is that pricing for almost all products and services (with the exception of things regulated by the government) is market-driven, not cost-driven.  In other words, their cost is completely irrelevant.  If a business cannot realize a profit at the price point that the customer is willing to pay, then they either need to reduce costs, or go out of business.  By offering a price lower than they are asking, you are offering 1 data point of market research that an astute business person may be able to utilize to improve their business, even if they choose not to accept or counter your offer.  If enough people make such an offer, they gather data that is useful for determining future package pricing.

You guys are obviously right about one thing.......it's a better deal for her if she doesn't have to print any photos.

I compromised even further.  I told her I'd like to have 6 images (of 11) emailed to me.....and I'd pay her $50 for that.  Her pat deal is 11 photos for $90.  So, this isn't much of a stretch. 

Now...would you do THAT (in her shoes)?  IMO...why should I pay her for the images I DON'T want?

No one wants anyone else's wedding photos or baby photos or graduation photos or... but that's how it is with creative work.

It goes just beyond you and your 8 photos. Rights management issues are not just about the end consumer--they are about protecting the artist (including their products, their image/reputation, their intellectual property, etc.).

You're thinking about this like it's something like a cheeseburger or garden hose or cable TV package...something that's a single item that you can purchase for use or consumption. There are a whole other set of issues in pricing and sales and who gets what when it comes to creative work. For one, you could take that image and make 50,000 copies of it and do whatever with it. You can't do that with a cheeseburger, unless you're, you know, jesus christ or something. A creative work has potential inherent in it. THAT'S what you're asking for when you're propositioning buying the digital files. Your intended use is one of an infinite number of potentials--and an artist has to account for that when they decide sales and pricing structures.

To me, as a businessman, I think the charging outlandishly for the few that will pay that instead of charging reasonably to get more folks to pay would be well worth taking a look at my business model. 
Let's take the Triathlon I just officiated last week as an example.  700 racers.  Say I need 3 photographers (or camera points) for the length of a race.  This one was a sprint that lasted about 2.5 hours for the longest competitor.  Let's round it to four - all things considered.  3 Photogs at right around $20 and hour x 4 hours.  Cost outlay for the event is $240.  Then you have to figure all of the equipment - which is not race specific - but it certainly has a cost.  Let's just say $500 per race (which I think is way too high).  Now, this particular person got a lot of photos (didn't you say 11?).  Let's just say there were 5 each that were good enough to want to have (not every picture looks good - none of me generally do).  So - this photogs cost is $90 for just the prints.  Now - if we were taking pictures of Hunter Kemper or Emma Snowsill, or Desiree Ficker - I could see controlling the image, but you have to realize your subject here.  It's a normal, everyday guy competing in a Tri.  The audience is quite small.  So - out of 700 people, how many folks do you think will by the prints for $90?  Just a short survey here has shown that even the people that think this is a fair price aren't willing to pay it.  Let's say she sells 100 or 1/7th of the potential customers.  She takes $900 from the event.  We already fixed her cost, somewhat haphazardly, at $740, giving her a profit of $160.  That's not a lot for a half a Saturday - nothing near what can be made at a wedding. 
However, let's lower the price across the board and send a CD instead of Prints.  Let's say $50, since that was offered and you get everything of you.  Now how many people do you get.  If you double the number (200), you still end up better off than you were at $90.  You see - your cost does not go up (I assume there would be a shipping and handling charge that would cover the CD cost).  This time you take $1000 for a profit of $260. 
Now, why do I bring this up?  Because a friend oif mine is in the photography business and they do much of the photography for Triathlons in the area.  He did Hy-Vee.  There were 5 pictures of me.  His business model says you can pay $15 each for a photo, or you can buy everything he has on you on a CD for 49.95 plus S&H.  Now you are incented to buy the package and pay more overall as three of the pics cost you as much as the whole bunch.  He also offers all kinds of artistic stuff that takes him time, but he charges a lot more for that.  Hy-Vee had 2200 participants.  He has already sold photo packages to more than 800 people.  Same setup - except add a photog.  His pull was $4000 on just about the same cost. 
It seems to me that this particular businessperson thinks more of their work than the customer does.   Again, you can have that attitude as a wedding photog (people pay through the nose), but not in this sport.  Your customer has to agree that your product is worth the cost or you get nothing. 

ETA:  I would think the desire to buy a race photo might go up with a more "fantastic" event.  You know, IM, Alcatraz, etc. and thus you could charge a higher price.   

I've only purchased pictures from 1 race. It was an IM and at the time I didn't know if I'd ever do another. I now think differentlyl.I got some nice pics and I'm happy I have them because it'll always be my first IM. However, I've had friends take pictures with their phones that were better than some of the "professional" race day photos I've seen.

our local race photog offers either print, digital, or low res digital.  You can pick and choose what you want, from a single $8 print, to a low res digital for $9, a high res digital for $23, to a massive and expensive package.

more options are good.  I was really wanting to buy one from my last tri, but alas he missed me on the swim and bike, and I looked horrible on the run.  oh well.

If I was confident that I had set my prices appropriately up front, no. 



Look at the model someone posted above where 1 high res digital image was $23.  If you are going to by a la carte, you will pay higher per item.  She is (likely) assuming you might not want every image in her $90 quote already.  You are assuming that each image is being priced at roughly the same price.

Finally, a photographer who gets it.  The bolded part is exactly what 90% of us are looking for and for some reason the majority of photographers just refuse to get on board.

We live in a digital world now.  Nobody under the age of 40 is the slighest bit interested in paying for hard copies of photos.  Photographers that don't offer reasonably priced digital downloads (I'm looking at you Brightroom) remind me of record companies that tried to fight the mp3 and iTunes.  In the end the smart labels got on board and figured out how to continue turning a profit in the face of declining sales of physical CDs.  The dinosaurs who refused to adapt went extinct.