Is clipless supposed to be this uncomfortable?

The symptoms of a shoe being too large  often make it feel too small.

Numb toes, numb feet, hot spots on the ball of your foot can point to a cycling shoe that is too large and allows the foot to move inside the shoe creating miniature impacts, pressure points and friction. That produces the numbness and/or hot spots.

If you stood up when trying on your cycling shoes there is a chance you bought your cycling shoes too large. If you used a manufacturer's "conversion chart" from an English shoe size like 9.5 to the "equivalent" metric size like "42.5" you may be in the wrong size to the too large.

Now, cycling shoes can obviously be too small also, but having sold literally thousands of pairs of cycling shoes over the last 33 years the overwhelming error I see is buying a cycling shoe too large.

Remember: Cycling shoes work differently than running shoes, street shoes or any shoes that come in contact with the ground. A cycling shoe is not designed to come in contact with the ground. It is designed to come in contact with a pedal. Additionally, your feet don't "spread out" under load the same way they do in a shoe you will stand on.

At no time in a cycling shoe is 100% of your body weight distributed over the entire surface area of the sole of your shoe. On the bike your weight is partially supported by the bike seat, even the handlebars when climbing out of the saddle. So, your feet behave differently inside the shoe than they do in a running shoe, street shoe, etc.

Running shoe on the left foot, cycling shoe on my right foot. Both shoes fit. Look at the physical difference in size between these shoes.

"Welp, it sounds like I may have gotten mine too big too.  Thanks for the info."

It's a super frequent set of circumstances. Add to that shop staff who have never done a triathlon or run off a bike with clipless pedals and its no wonder its tough to get right on the first try.

There is also common dogma that you have to buy your cycling shoes slightly larger to "allow your feet to swell". I'll vigorously assert that's wrong.

Of course, you can buy shoes too small, and that happens. The symptoms are roughly similar to, oddly enough, buying them too large: numbness, hot spots, etc. But the more common deviation from the optimal fit is to the "too large".

I hope that helps.

As a general guide just to frame this in I wear a size 9.5 running shoe and a size 41 triathlon cycling shoe in most brands but a size 40.5 in others. My road cycling shoes, which I wear socks in, are a size 41.5, a half size larger than my triathlon cycling shoes to accomodate socks, and because my road cycling shoes have three closures on the top but my current tri shoes have one.

I don't know that that is necessarily true.  During my AudioFuel sessions Chrissie says to "wriggle" the toes in the bike shoes to make sure the feet are relaxed.

I'll second that I tend to wiggle my toes now and again throughout my rides for that exact reason, seems to help relax my feet a bit. Now if your foot moves around in the shoe like Tom says that's a problem. 

I had a "questionable" look at my face...not to say you're wrong, but I'm not sure if I agree with this statement.  You would think that a BIKE shop would know exactly how bike shoes are supposed to fit, regardless if it's for a triathlon or not.

My LBS has a HUGE amount of experience with bikes and everything that has to do with bikes (not a standard Bike shop chain that seems to be more geared towards recreational/commuter cyclists), so why wouldn't my LBS know about this?

You made it sound like is so frequent everywhere, but wouldn't you think that someone who is into triathlons/cycling would go to a shop that has a lot of knowledge?   Or is it a lot more frequent than I thought?   I'm from Las Vegas, so it's a one town thing, lots of LBS to choose from, and I can attest that all of them has massive knowledge about cycling. 

Incorrect shoe size is a likely culprit, but there are other likely culprits as well.

A good bike fitting and positioning would have identified and eliminated those culprits, and in any case are requisite if one wants to do any significant amount of cycling (e.g., training for triathlon).

"I had a "questionable" look at my face...not to say you're wrong, but I'm not sure if I agree with this statement.  You would think that a BIKE shop would know exactly how bike shoes are supposed to fit, regardless if it's for a triathlon or not."

In 1989 and 1990 I worked with Doug Knox for Time Sport USA. We were the U.S. National Tech Reps and also did pedal set-ups for our pro teams. We set up pedals for LeMond, Delgado, etc.

As part of my job I called on bicycle retailers to clinic them on the technical aspects of shoe/pedals set-up. On a national level, Doug and I discovered an extremely low level of proficiency and familiarity with clipless pedal systems. That was 1989.

Since then I've written thousands of articles, fit thousands of clients, made thousands of forum posts and sold thousands of bikes. I've also been fortunate enough to see the level of dealer proficiency with technical service improve, but more ominously, many dealers don't do the due dilligence required to learn truly credible fit and positioning practices.

The dealer that employs the $10-14 per hour casual, "beatnick" cyclist still very much exists. Their way is "the way", and they, (like me...) will tell you its right.

Sooner or later, if a customer stays in the sport long enough, they get it figured out. It's just a matter of how much bad advice and less than credible service they are willing to buy into until they start looking for better answers. Internet forums haven't helped since an unlimited number of "experts" posting under anonymous usernames dispense advice without any culpability for its accuracy or suitability.

This is a helpful thread, thanks Tom!

I only have two bike shoes. The first one is a Louis Garneau that I got from REI for cheap. I didn't really realize that that shoe is way too narrow for my feet, and my feet would actually bend because it's too small and narrow.

Second shoe is Shimano Tri shoes, and they fit well, however, I notice on my rides if I push it hard, standing up, being in aero, I feel the front of the shoe, and it squeezes my feet a little too much. It seems like there's "too much room". 

So I did a comparison test to my comfortable minimalist running shoe, and both of the bike shoes are the same height to each other. However, I feel like my Shimano shoe is 1/2 size too big.  I'll test out the size smaller and see if that is better!

What would you recommend to someone who has short toes, wide feet, wide toe area (need a wide toe box, no question about it) and "tall" arches?

Slokat - I hope you're getting some benefit out of this thread. I agree that there's something up with your shoe fit AND cleat/positioning fit. It shouldn't hurt.   What kind of clipless did you get? If you're using Shimano small size, you may feel better with getting larger platform like Look or Speedplays. 

thanks for the help Tom. i have been having numbing issues for a few months now. clinched down my straps around my toes tonight and everything was fine.  i thought they were going numb because the shoes were too tight so i kept making them looser [facepalm]

No, it's not, and from an action perspective, Tom's right on, for step one. 

That said, there are layers to this issue. Layer 1 is shoe size, which Tom has thumped perfectly. Layer 2 is comprised of toe-in/toe-out, front-back cleat location, arch support, shape of the shoe, tightness of the straps / fit, shims, and to a lesser degree, location of the straps (3 vs. 2 vs 1), stiffness of the sole, and a bunch of other things. All can be a culprit.

From a starting point, getting the right sized shoe is paramount. After that, it's a lot of trial-and-error. 

And in defense of your bike shop: It's unrealistic to expect that a fitter would be able to peg the exact pedal setup, too...takes time in the saddle and adjustment. I wouldn't expect that a fitter would be able to figure out what saddle, for instance, wouldn't cause discomfort or numbing...that's trial and error. Same with the entire pedal equation....so individual there's no formula. 

Good luck on your journey. 

After struggling with proper bike or tri shoe fit, I ordered a pair of customs. We'll see how they work when they arrive. I have wide feet with short toes so getting shoes wide enough even buying men's shoes, are to long, which puts cleats to far forward.

My issue follows me with various shoes, different pedals, and different bikes, so we (fitter and I) eliminated different scenarios of what my shoe issues were.

No, not all bike shops "get" triathletes - I recently went clipless too, and was looking for a decent but affordable pair of tri-shoes as opposed to bike shoes.

When I called one shop who claimed to be experts, I asked them if they had any triathlon specific bike shoes, and how much they cost - she said they did, they were $99, and they had them in my size. Well I took the model number down (thank goodness) and put it through the internet and found they were bike shoes, not tri-shoes.

I ended up with Shimano 105 clips and Shimano base level tri shoes. Haven't had any issues yet.. then I haven't been training at all because I've been dealing with the death of my fiancè. *sigh*

Yeah Tom's pictures are crazy.

I just got a new pair of tri cycling shoes and they look nothing like that compared to my running shoes.  Little smaller, but not like that.

I bought what the chart says and they felt good when I try them on.  I've got one 30-mile ride in on them and they feel pretty good, but this thread (and Tom's pictures) was in my head the whole time.  There was a wee bit of numbness and pain, but nothing even close to bad.

I don't remember trying on the size below what I got...I may stop back in and try to do that.  I think I did and could barely get them on my foot.

Just wanted to report back.   I was thinking about this post when I did a trainer ride. I put on my shoes as normal, and then thought of this post, and "tighten" the Velcro strap on my shoes so my foot is much more snug. I was more worried of swelling feet, hence why I pretty much always kept it loose. 

I could NOT be more wrong. It was just SO much more comfortable, and in fact, my foot stayed in place instead of slipping a little forward, which I didn't like about the shoe because I keep hitting the front of the toe box. It annoyed me.   I thought my feet would swell and hurt. Nope. Didn't swell, and I didn't have the "pins and needles" on the ball of my foot that I get sometimes.

Today I did that again, tightened the straps more than usual, and I hit a huge PR on the course that I normally ride on...best of all, no pain or discomfort whatsoever after 40 miles, heck, I didn't even feel like I needed to "shake it out". It was just that comfortable.   Who knew?! Tom did...that's for sure. :-)

Thanks again Tom for your advice! :-)

sounds like I need to go shoe shopping for smaller shoes.

Checked out the Trisports web site.

PI Trifly IV's are $125.  that doesn't sound so bad.  I'll need to get there and try them on.