Do you use Critical Power or FTP testing?

Jeez a search didn't give me much then I post this and I see a good list of threads after the post like this!

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=260525&posts=13&page=1

I just take a semi-educated guess. 

But really, I'll go with a more general feel off of several key workouts over a few weeks as opposed to specifically testing for it.

You lost me at the bolded part....  

I've only ever done CP testing (with both the 3/20 and 5/20 tests).

In addition to FTP, testing at a few points can also give insight about the performance curve which can help in figuring out what type of training may be more effective for further improvement.

This is what we are doing with the Jr. Elite kids.  They get tested 3 times per year.  We just finished the first last week as they begin to ramp up for the first races in March.  We'll do it again right before the meat of the season starts in May, and then again at the end of the season before they take a break from cycling.  This is the 3rd year I've been involved with watching it.......it's interesting to see the numbers over that time period.

The most important thing I've learned is that your FTP number really doesn't mean crap if you don't have someone who can put together the workouts that use the zones that your FTP number gives you.  Once you have someone that can dial in the information and set up a plan to increase your power it's worth it's weight in gold.

Yeah, the first 2 years all that happened were the tests.  None of the kids had power meters so we had a number and saw progress or decline at each test. 

By last year most of the kids had PM's and we got hooked up with a Pedal Hard shop where the kids worked out twice a week under the guidance of some REALLY knowledgeable trainers......the difference was dramatic.  We had some pretty eye opening bike splits by the end of last season.

I just use the 20 minute power average from Sufferfest's "Rubber Glove" and take 95% if I'm doing an official test.  I've done the 5 minute max with 10 minutes rest followed by 20 minutes a few times and found the results pretty similar to the results of just the 20 minute effort.  The single 20 minute effort leaves me a bit fresher for quality workouts during the week.

During the spring and summer I'll use the "Estimated FTP" that Strava calculates from my CP curve from the last 6 weeks.

The differences between those groups is exactly what I was thinking about. Helps to show why some people do better than others with the different type of work.

That's another good point.  You have to know what your goals are, because not all triathlon is alike.  Our kids train to be able to withstand, or create, big surges that are meant to drop riders in a draft legal format.  It's very different from training to increase power for an AG race....and then you have the various distances in those races as well.  Not all cycling is equal.

Right, it was the relationship between that roof and ceiling. The three groups were based on the ratio of those. Not in absolute power, but the ratio of the shorter over the longer gave a number. The "sprinter" group does not actually refer to the ability to sprint at all, but was just an easy name to call the group with a higher ratio. I don't believe any part of any of this training actually worked on true sprinting.

That's interesting.  We have some really knowledgeable folks who say that training is very race specific.  But I can see how your group could be generic to improving FTP.  Different goals.

There are *some* differences between the various race differences, but having a strong threshold power is necessary for *all* of them. Even the longer ones raced well short of threshold. The race specific training is built on top of having very strong threshold power. As we've seen up at the faster end of things, someone with very strong threshold performance can move between the distances and do fairly well. The race specific work can help make the difference between *well* and *win*.

That's a good way to put it.  I'm going to bring this up Saturday at the next session.  Obviously there are other factors.  I know some kids who have w/kg ratios in the 4.5-4.7 range.....but they'd get their arses handed to them in a HIM, for instance.  On the other hand, they easily can hold their own in a super sprint with an IM champion....as seen this year at Milwaukee when 16-19 year olds stayed right in the thick of the race.....and one made the podium.  In a long race they'd be thrashed. 

There is still the need to be able to hit 800-1000 watts in a draft legal race.....you can't do that repeatedly, and recover, in a single race, by just training to get your FTP higher....right?  I realize we aren't talking about avg. racers.......just trying to understand it better.

I agree.  FTP (1 hour power) in of itself is really not that important to know unless you are planning to do a time trial race that lasts roughly 1 hour.  I agree that knowing your FTP is "generally" a good way to structure other workouts, but once you start doing this enough, you just let your previous workouts drive your upcoming workouts.

IOW, the best way to know what you should shoot for during your next 5x5' interval workout is to know what you did in your previous 5x5' workouts.  Same for 4x10', 30x30", 2x20', or a race paced long ride.  Once you ride enough at various lengths of time, you'll build up a power curve where you can see what your strengths and weaknesses are.  Depending on what type of racing you are doing, you can then see what needs to be worked on.  You can do all of this without ever knowing what your FTP is.

FWIW, there hasn't been one FTP testing protocol that has accurately predicted my FTP (during a 1 hour TT).  It's always over estimated by about 10-15 watts.  And even when I know my true FTP from that 1 hour TT, none of those rough estimates of what percentage of FTP you should race long course has ever worked for me.  Such as 75-80% of FTP for a HIM.  Always over estimated for me.  I have a rather steep power curve, but I know this...and rely on my own data to prescribe race paces or workout goals.