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2015-04-14 9:30 AM

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Subject: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?
Hi guys!

So, I'm thinking of trying to take a more plant based route again. I've only tried it once before, for a few months. During that time I felt low energy and had trouble building my strength. Pretty sure I was doing it wrong :/ But now with meats in my diet again, I comfortably build muscle, I feel like I recover faster from key training, but always feel kinda heavy? Not light on my feet...

Is there some kind of happy medium I can reach?

I eat 2 eggs with toast every single morning.

Lunch is usually chicken in some form or another. With fruit and rice.

Dinner is almost always salmon or more chicken.

And let's not forget my carb grazing in between meals :/ usually oatmeal before lunch. At night all bets are off and I'm usually reaching for cookies.

So, clearly I'm doing this whole thing wrong. Lol

I usually train twice a day. Once early morning and once at lunch. I'll often have a protein shake after the sessions.

But lately I've felt "clogged" and heavy. Not sure if it's the meat OR my crappy diet in general.


2015-04-14 10:02 AM
in reply to: rizztalah

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?

I eat a plant based diet.  You don't need as much protein as you think, and you don't need as much fat as you think.

What you do need is enough calories and energy to perform your workouts and recover. The reason you felt poor on the plant based diet (as many people who do it incorrectly do) is that you didn't eat enough.  By volume, you have to eat a whole lot more plants than chicken or salmon.  It isn't unusual for me to sit down and eat 2 lbs of potatoes (around 1000 calories). 

What you need to look at is percentage of diet from each macronutrient source.

I kind of shoot for 70% carbohydrates, 15% protein, 15% fat. 

Looking at what you wrote, I'd guess you're closer to 30-40% protein 30% fat 30-40% carbohydrate.  No wonder you fee heavy.

2015-04-14 11:13 AM
in reply to: #5107961

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?
Ok, haha so I'm clearly doing it wrong.

Could you give me an example day? Like what you eat breakfast/lunch/dinner?

Cuz I am failing at that.
2015-04-14 11:31 AM
in reply to: rizztalah

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?
What is your reason for wanting to be vegetarian or Vegan?

You can be healthy eating meat or not eating meat, but you need to educate yourself.

For protein during the day you need to get somewhere between .5g to 1g of protein per pound(goal body weight).

Looking at what you eat lets throw out a number of 120lbs is your body weight.

for endurance athletes its usually suggested to eat .5g - .75g of protein per lb. so if you are 120 lbs that would mean you should get 60g to 90g a day of protein. If you were body building you would want more, probably 120g plus.

your diet:
2 eggs- 12g
chicken- 30g
salmon- 40g
2 proteins shakes- 40-50g

this puts you around 122g plus per day. And that's just the animal protein you don't specify other items in your diet so you may be getting a lot more then this.

you don't specify what all those snack are, but that is usually where people run into problems.

Cut the process foods out of your diet and eat clean, you will feel much better.

2015-04-14 11:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?

Originally posted by rizztalah Ok, haha so I'm clearly doing it wrong. Could you give me an example day? Like what you eat breakfast/lunch/dinner? Cuz I am failing at that.

Example day for me:

Breakfast fruit smoothie:  4-5 bananas, 2-3 cups of berries, 8-12oz pineapple juice ~ 800-900 calories

Lunch: Starchy foods. So rice+beans or potatoes and vegetables.  800-1000 calories

Afternoon pre-workout meal:  Fruit juice, fruit, or similar   400 calories

Dinner: Another meal of starchy foods like rice+beans or potatoes and vegetables.  Also try to eat a green salad somewhere in here. ~ 800-1000 calories.

I train a lot, I'm male, and I'm larger than you which makes the calorie intake higher, but the premise is the same.  More simple sugars to bring up blood sugar to fuel the workouts or refill glycogen stores.  Starches to fuel the rest of the time.

Another key, my diet is VERY high in fiber. VERY.  When you eat a high fiber diet you have empty bowels which alleviates the "heavy full" feeling.  My transit time is around 12-14 hours.  High animal product diets tend to be low in fiber, and animal products take a long time to digest.  This means your bowels and intestines are simply full of more food.

Another benefit is that plant foods tend to be higher in water content.  As an athlete that never hurts.



Edited by dmiller5 2015-04-14 11:58 AM
2015-04-14 12:42 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?
I agree with the "cutout processed foods and eat clean" statement. This for me made the biggest impact. I am plant based, but early on I relied on the processed "meat like" products to help me transition away from animal products. I still crave a bag of potato chips from time to time, and consider that a treat rather than a staple in my cupboard. As I cut out items with unreadable ingredient lists I really started to feel better.

I have a smoothie for breakfast made with some fruit but mostly veggies. Salad for lunch, which has minimal amounts of Iceberg in it, but has alot of nuts and seeds. Dinner is usually more starchy with brown rice or potatoes.


2015-04-14 12:50 PM
in reply to: aalbury

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?

Originally posted by aalbury Salad for lunch, which has minimal amounts of Iceberg in it, but has alot of nuts and seeds. 

 

This. That's why I can't eat salads at restaurants. There's just not enough to them. A whole bunch of iceberg and a few little tomatoes doesn't exactly fill you up, so my salads at home are dense on nuts and seeds, figs, beans, chick peas, hummus, things like that.

2015-04-14 1:03 PM
in reply to: trijamie

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?

Originally posted by trijamie

Originally posted by aalbury Salad for lunch, which has minimal amounts of Iceberg in it, but has alot of nuts and seeds. 

 

This. That's why I can't eat salads at restaurants. There's just not enough to them. A whole bunch of iceberg and a few little tomatoes doesn't exactly fill you up, so my salads at home are dense on nuts and seeds, figs, beans, chick peas, hummus, things like that.

yeah, and you're eating salads for the nutrition in the greens, not for the calories.  You cannot eat enough lettuce to fuel your body, its impossible.

2015-04-14 1:08 PM
in reply to: rizztalah

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?


Ok that's super helpful guys.

So, when I was on a cleaner diet before, I also did the smoothie for breakfast but would feel hungry literally about an hour or so later... and would reach for oatmeals or bagels or breads of any kind! Just craving breads! ugh.

My smoothie was usually:

coconut milk, cup of mixed berries, vanilla whey protein powder, kale

I'd have that and feel great but literally as I would arrive to work, 1 meeting in, I'd be wanting to eat again.

So can I still take that approach but just make an effort to take in more veggies more often?


We have a juice bar near our house that serves 10oz juices. My favorite one is: beets, spinach, kale, pineapple, lemon <--- had that yesterday and felt really alert!! Which is what prompted me asking you guys.

Thanks!



Oh yeah, so I currently weigh 140, 18% body fat.
2015-04-14 2:40 PM
in reply to: rizztalah

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?

Instead of fruit juice, eat a piece of fruit. You lose a lot of nutrients with just the juice, but keep all the sugar. Simple carbs cause you to crash and feel groggy, also does not do much to curb your appetite.
2015-04-14 11:53 PM
in reply to: #5107961

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?
With regards to the breakfast: I eat two pieces of fruit, typically a banana and an apple, in addition to a glass of OJ as my breakfast. I've been doing this for 7 months and it's been going great. Although, I should really mix it up and try making it as a drink or smoothie! My wife is going on 9 years vegetarian and I cannot cook very well hehe so as you may imagine most of my meals are vegetarian (meat ~2x per week). Although I am not fully there yet I am shooting to be fully vegetarian by 2016 as a personal goal. Back in October 2014 I began minimizing my meat intake significantly and am transitioning to a full plant based diet. From my own research and beliefs, it is an excellent regiment to be on. Perhaps try transitioning slowly into the diet your aiming for. Got my slow into mine has been very easy to manage. Good luck!


2015-04-15 12:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?
So what are you trying to do, stop from getting hungry? If so, you're not eating enough. The AM meal is a liquid meal, so it will clear your stomach quickly. That's the first problem. And there is very little of anything else except for a ton of protein. How much is that meal, 300-400 calories?

I do at least 1/2 cup dry steel cut oats, ~1/2 cup almonds, 1/3 cup raisins, 1.5 tbsp chia seeds + almond milk (please keep in mind I am 6'/175 lb so you may need to adjust the portion).

Yes, it's a fiber explosion but it sits in my stomach and I'm good until lunch. High in protein, moderate content fat, plenty of complex carbohydrates. It checks off all of the "keeps you full" boxes.

My lunch/dinner is usually a bean/lentil combination paired with a whole grain of some sort: quinoa, kamut, whole wheat berries, brown rice, amaranth, barley, millet, etc. Topped off with some leafy greens, typically steamed doused in olive oil. Sometimes if I have time I'll saute something up the night before. I do not eat exclusively vegetarian so I do throw chicken, fish, etc. in there sometimes, but not generally.

A couple notes:
- When you cut out all animal products, you become higher risk for iron deficiency. More so because you're an athlete and female. Vegetarians need about 150% more dietary iron than meat-eaters do. Luckily, all of the vegetarian protein sources (for the most part) are very rich in iron. More absorbable with the presence of vitamin C (so mix lentils with tomato sauce, add in a fresh salad/vegetables, etc.).
- B12 is completely unavailable in the vegan diet, so you need to supplement from some external source...one of the reasons I throw a few servings of fish or meat in every couple of weeks.

Edited by sentient.couch 2015-04-15 12:26 AM
2015-04-15 6:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?
I'm not vegetarian or vegan, but eat a pretty small amount of animal protein most weeks. I was mostly vegetarian for five or six years in college and just after, when I was running really high mileage, for the reasons you describe--I felt lighter on my feet, and vegetarian meals are quicker to digest and don't leave you feeling sluggish hours later, which matters if you're running twice a day. I had also just left home and cooking with meat disgusted me! However, I struggled with low iron, craving carbs/sweets, energy level swings, etc. and gained a lot of weight once I stopped high volume training. I finally gave up vegetarianism because the iron supplements I had to take made me feel worse than eating meat. (Plus I moved to Hawaii and there was too much great barbecue!)

I retrospect, I think I had neglected some pretty key areas of my diet that I'm guessing are true for a lot of athletes, esp. women:

*Getting enough protein, if not from animal products, then from veggie sources or eggs/dairy products if not vegan. Back in the day, a lot of my meals were close to being pure carbs--oatmeal, pancakes, spaghetti. Ditto for snacks--muffins, bagels, cookies. Now I try to make sure that every meal/snack includes at least a little protein, most of it from veggie sources (nuts, nut butter, beans, tofu) and maybe once a day or every few days, meat or eggs.

*Getting enough fiber. Again, back in the day, everyone thought that carbs were good runner food and didn't pay a lot of attention to what kind of carbs they were. It's difficult in Vietnam, but I try to make sure as many of my grains as possible are whole ones--wheat bread, brown rice, whole wheat pasta. This helps contribute to feeling full after eating and adds micronutrients such as B vitamins. Also, I try to eat plenty of raw or minimally cooked fruits and veggies.

*Getting enough fat. For me, really important. My body seems to like a fairly high-fat diet. This may have to do with simply needing the energy because I train a lot, have a pretty fast metabolism, and don't like sweets very much. I have much higher energy levels and a lot fewer sweets/carb cravings, and get sick much less when I include plenty of healthy fats such as olive oil, nuts, nut butter, and coconut. Since I'm not a vegetarian, I even include some less healthy ones such as butter and the occasional steak.

Micronutrients: Aside from iron, probably insufficient levels of zinc, some of the B vitamins, D (this was Oregon, little sunlight!) and some I haven't even thought of. I'm sure this contributed to the respiratory viruses that always wreaked havoc with my training back then.

A typical food day for me NOW might be (I'll do a veggie one since that's probably true 3-4 days a week). This would be a heavy training day:

Breakfast: muesli topped with a little granola, Greek yogurt and milk, fruit, nuts; juice, coffee. Or wheat bread with peanut butter and bananas instead of cereal. (Pretty much every work day. On weekends I like to go out for omelettes.)

Lunch: (eaten at school. Vietnamese eat their main meal at noon so this is pretty much what the local staff eat.) Rice, tofu or other veggie protein dish, one or two kinds of cooked veggies, salad, sometimes a veggie soup, fruit.

Possible snack: Fruit or a coconut shake with black coffee (I call the latter my "Red Bull"--the calories and caffeine get me through the afternoon if I'm tired). Mainly if I have an afternoon workout and/or the cafeteria struck out on lunch and it wasn't satisfying/filling.

Dinner: Fairly light unless I've just done a big swim workout. Usually (Asian or Italian) noodles with veggies and some tofu or cheese, or a salad with some kind of protein on it (last night had one with lentils and feta). Sometimes fruit or a few squares of dark chocolate for dessert.

This definitely fills me up, even now when my training is pushing 15 hours/week. I rarely snack unless free food presents itself in a staff meeting, and even then, don't really crave sweets/carbs anymore. Everyone's body's a bit different (and I'm convinced there are big differences between men and women in craving protein vs. carbs, etc.) but maybe some of this would be useful as reference.

Edited by Hot Runner 2015-04-15 7:06 AM
2015-04-15 11:01 PM
in reply to: rizztalah

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?
I agree with what a lot of the others have said. It's really the combination of fruits, veggies, protein, fat and carbs that keep me going. I've been vegan for over 10 years and plant based for over 15. I feel best when I get protein in with each meal (and ideally every snack as well) so I make sure each meal includes some kind of protein source (ie nuts, beans, tofu, tempeh, seeds), while remembering that veggies and carbohydrates contain protein as well. I also do better with higher fat, or at least not restricted in fat content, so I make sure each meal has a source of fat (like nut butter, olive oil, avocado, earth balance, etc).

A typical day for me:
BF: 1/2 cup cooked oats with 2 tablespoons of nut butter, hemp seeds, chia seeds and a piece of fruit
Lunch: 1/2 - 1 cup beans, vegetables, 1/2 cup rice/quinoa/millet, sauce (usually containing fat)
Supper: vegetable soup or nachos (always vegan) or pasta or curries
snack: fruit, protein shakes, homemade cookies, coconut milk ice cream

I figure this gives me around 2000-2500 calories per day right now, which keeps my energy and strength intact and lately, I've seen a positive change in muscle mass as well.

I do take B12 and iron supplements to keep my levels up (not because vegans need iron per se but because I've tested low in the past) along with a few other supplements for overall recovery, immune health, and GI health.
2015-04-16 5:21 AM
in reply to: Emer

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?
I have been vegetarian since the start of the year, and was eating very little meat last year... So I am glad to find this thread! I don't think about what I eat too much, I occasional have energy lapses (though I can put most of this down to busy weeks and not enough sleep...), and am still trying to shake off my sweet tooth. I tend to eat a lot of rice, and a good amount of beans. LOTS of fruit and veg as well.

Good to see some of the suggestions for meals in here, I think I need to pay more attention to what is in each food so it's some good reading!
2015-04-16 8:57 AM
in reply to: rizztalah

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?
Good discussion - I went vegetarian almost exactly a year ago and have kind of wrestled with my diet since...

I really had no plan when I made the switch and probably still don't in terms of a balanced diet. Initially, I was definitely eating more grainy type stuff so imagine my shock and indignation when I started gaining weight. There was a kind of delayed onset muscle fatigue but once I added a protein supplement, that came under control. I got my fifth IM done around six months after the change with no noticeable effect to the training regimen.

Mostly I just make up my food intake as I go...Trader Joe's has a bunch of meat substitutes, so there's that. I eat more peanut butter than I used to but beside the fact that I'm not eating meat of any kind any more, I can't really say I've changed much about what I keep in the pantry/fridge. I'm going to make some notes from earlier posts in the thread - lots of great ideas.


2015-04-17 10:36 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by rizztalah Ok, haha so I'm clearly doing it wrong. Could you give me an example day? Like what you eat breakfast/lunch/dinner? Cuz I am failing at that.

Example day for me:

Breakfast fruit smoothie:  4-5 bananas, 2-3 cups of berries, 8-12oz pineapple juice ~ 800-900 calories

Lunch: Starchy foods. So rice+beans or potatoes and vegetables.  800-1000 calories

Afternoon pre-workout meal:  Fruit juice, fruit, or similar   400 calories

Dinner: Another meal of starchy foods like rice+beans or potatoes and vegetables.  Also try to eat a green salad somewhere in here. ~ 800-1000 calories.

I train a lot, I'm male, and I'm larger than you which makes the calorie intake higher, but the premise is the same.  More simple sugars to bring up blood sugar to fuel the workouts or refill glycogen stores.  Starches to fuel the rest of the time.

Another key, my diet is VERY high in fiber. VERY.  When you eat a high fiber diet you have empty bowels which alleviates the "heavy full" feeling.  My transit time is around 12-14 hours.  High animal product diets tend to be low in fiber, and animal products take a long time to digest.  This means your bowels and intestines are simply full of more food.

Another benefit is that plant foods tend to be higher in water content.  As an athlete that never hurts.

Dave said in his first reply that getting enough protein and fat isn't a problem, and he's right if you do it right, but IME it can be an issue, because many people don't understand how to do it.  Based on Dave's sample day above, he clearly does, so I'm sure it doesn't seem like an issue to him.  Notice how he combines grains and legumes (rice & beans) 2 of his meals?  That's because most plant sources of proteins do not contain complete proteins with all the amino acids found in animal sources.  It's necessary to combine like he is to get adequate amounts of complete proteins.  Another option is to eat more of the plants that provide complete proteins like quinoa.

There are no essential foods.  There are only essential nutrients.

 

2015-04-17 4:17 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?
Food combining to get a "complete protein" has actually been discredited. This was the way of thinking at one time and I've certainly had health professionals try to push this theory on me.

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.php
"It is very easy for a vegan diet to meet the recommendations for protein. Nearly all vegetables, beans, grains, nuts, and seeds contain some, and often much, protein. Fruits, sugars, fats, and alcohol do not provide much protein, so a diet based only on these foods would have a good chance of being too low in protein. ... Vegans eating varied diets containing vegetables, beans, grains, nuts, and seeds rarely have any difficulty getting enough protein as long as their diet contains enough energy (calories) to maintain weight. ...

What about combining or complementing protein? Doesn’t that make the protein issue much more complex? Let’s look at a little background on the myth of complementing proteins. Protein is made up of amino acids, often described as its building blocks. We actually have a biological requirement for amino acids, not for protein. Humans cannot make nine of the twenty common amino acids, so these amino acids are considered to be essential. In other words, we must get these amino acids from our diets. We need all nine of these amino acids for our body to make protein.

Some people say that eggs, cow’s milk, meat, and fish are high quality protein. This means that they have large amounts of all the essential amino acids. Soybeans, quinoa (a grain), and spinach also are considered high quality protein. Other protein sources of non-animal origin usually have all of the essential amino acids, but the amounts of one or two of these amino acids may be low. For example, grains are lower in lysine (an essential amino acid) and legumes are lower in methionine (another essential amino acid) than those protein sources designated as high quality protein.

Frances Moore Lappe, in her book Diet for a Small Planet 6 advocated the combining of a food low in one amino acid with another food containing large amounts of that amino acid. This got to be a very complicated process, with each meal having specific amounts of certain foods in order to be certain of getting a favorable amino acid mix. Many people got discouraged with the complexity of this approach. Actually, Lappe was being overly conservative to avoid criticism from the “Nutrition Establishment.” She has since repudiated strict protein combining, saying, “In combating the myth that meat is the only way to get high quality protein, I reinforced another myth. I gave the impression that in order to get enough protein without meat, considerable care was needed in choosing foods. Actually it is much easier than I thought”...

As an extreme example, even if you only ate one kind of grain, bean, potato, or vegetable as a protein source, and ate enough of that food, you could meet your protein and amino acid needs. Admittedly, it would be a very monotonous way to eat and you might miss out on other nutrients. We point this out, however, to illustrate the idea that almost all non-animal protein sources contain all of the essential amino acids..."
2015-04-17 4:26 PM
in reply to: Emer

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?

Originally posted by Emer Food combining to get a "complete protein" has actually been discredited. This was the way of thinking at one time and I've certainly had health professionals try to push this theory on me. http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.php"It is very easy for a vegan diet to meet the recommendations for protein. Nearly all vegetables, beans, grains, nuts, and seeds contain some, and often much, protein. Fruits, sugars, fats, and alcohol do not provide much protein, so a diet based only on these foods would have a good chance of being too low in protein. ... Vegans eating varied diets containing vegetables, beans, grains, nuts, and seeds rarely have any difficulty getting enough protein as long as their diet contains enough energy (calories) to maintain weight. ... What about combining or complementing protein? Doesn’t that make the protein issue much more complex? Let’s look at a little background on the myth of complementing proteins. Protein is made up of amino acids, often described as its building blocks. We actually have a biological requirement for amino acids, not for protein. Humans cannot make nine of the twenty common amino acids, so these amino acids are considered to be essential. In other words, we must get these amino acids from our diets. We need all nine of these amino acids for our body to make protein. Some people say that eggs, cow’s milk, meat, and fish are high quality protein. This means that they have large amounts of all the essential amino acids. Soybeans, quinoa (a grain), and spinach also are considered high quality protein. Other protein sources of non-animal origin usually have all of the essential amino acids, but the amounts of one or two of these amino acids may be low. For example, grains are lower in lysine (an essential amino acid) and legumes are lower in methionine (another essential amino acid) than those protein sources designated as high quality protein. Frances Moore Lappe, in her book Diet for a Small Planet 6 advocated the combining of a food low in one amino acid with another food containing large amounts of that amino acid. This got to be a very complicated process, with each meal having specific amounts of certain foods in order to be certain of getting a favorable amino acid mix. Many people got discouraged with the complexity of this approach. Actually, Lappe was being overly conservative to avoid criticism from the “Nutrition Establishment.” She has since repudiated strict protein combining, saying, “In combating the myth that meat is the only way to get high quality protein, I reinforced another myth. I gave the impression that in order to get enough protein without meat, considerable care was needed in choosing foods. Actually it is much easier than I thought”... As an extreme example, even if you only ate one kind of grain, bean, potato, or vegetable as a protein source, and ate enough of that food, you could meet your protein and amino acid needs. Admittedly, it would be a very monotonous way to eat and you might miss out on other nutrients. We point this out, however, to illustrate the idea that almost all non-animal protein sources contain all of the essential amino acids..."

YES! thank you for writing this out, I'm tired of explaining it all the time.  Our current culture is obsessed with protein.  Why? Because marketing people hype it up.  Why does everything say X grams of protein! If they wrote it on the package, it must be a big deal.

Eat your starches, eat your fruits, and eat your vegetables. It contains everything you need. (we can have a conversation about B12, but that's a fairly complex issue).

2015-04-17 4:28 PM
in reply to: Emer

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Hmmm...Interesting.  I've attended many nutrition sessions at personal training conferences with some of the country's leaders in the field, receive the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research monthly, and this is the first time I've seen anything say it's been discredited.  The link you provided appears to be of a reputable source, and not a quack spouting pseudo-science, so I'll have to dig into it deeper and check the study references.  It's too lengthy for the amount of time I have available right now.  Thank you for sharing.

 

2015-04-17 4:34 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by Emer Food combining to get a "complete protein" has actually been discredited. This was the way of thinking at one time and I've certainly had health professionals try to push this theory on me. http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.php"It is very easy for a vegan diet to meet the recommendations for protein. Nearly all vegetables, beans, grains, nuts, and seeds contain some, and often much, protein. Fruits, sugars, fats, and alcohol do not provide much protein, so a diet based only on these foods would have a good chance of being too low in protein. ... Vegans eating varied diets containing vegetables, beans, grains, nuts, and seeds rarely have any difficulty getting enough protein as long as their diet contains enough energy (calories) to maintain weight. ... What about combining or complementing protein? Doesn’t that make the protein issue much more complex? Let’s look at a little background on the myth of complementing proteins. Protein is made up of amino acids, often described as its building blocks. We actually have a biological requirement for amino acids, not for protein. Humans cannot make nine of the twenty common amino acids, so these amino acids are considered to be essential. In other words, we must get these amino acids from our diets. We need all nine of these amino acids for our body to make protein. Some people say that eggs, cow’s milk, meat, and fish are high quality protein. This means that they have large amounts of all the essential amino acids. Soybeans, quinoa (a grain), and spinach also are considered high quality protein. Other protein sources of non-animal origin usually have all of the essential amino acids, but the amounts of one or two of these amino acids may be low. For example, grains are lower in lysine (an essential amino acid) and legumes are lower in methionine (another essential amino acid) than those protein sources designated as high quality protein. Frances Moore Lappe, in her book Diet for a Small Planet 6 advocated the combining of a food low in one amino acid with another food containing large amounts of that amino acid. This got to be a very complicated process, with each meal having specific amounts of certain foods in order to be certain of getting a favorable amino acid mix. Many people got discouraged with the complexity of this approach. Actually, Lappe was being overly conservative to avoid criticism from the “Nutrition Establishment.” She has since repudiated strict protein combining, saying, “In combating the myth that meat is the only way to get high quality protein, I reinforced another myth. I gave the impression that in order to get enough protein without meat, considerable care was needed in choosing foods. Actually it is much easier than I thought”... As an extreme example, even if you only ate one kind of grain, bean, potato, or vegetable as a protein source, and ate enough of that food, you could meet your protein and amino acid needs. Admittedly, it would be a very monotonous way to eat and you might miss out on other nutrients. We point this out, however, to illustrate the idea that almost all non-animal protein sources contain all of the essential amino acids..."

YES! thank you for writing this out, I'm tired of explaining it all the time.  Our current culture is obsessed with protein.  Why? Because marketing people hype it up.  Why does everything say X grams of protein! If they wrote it on the package, it must be a big deal.

Eat your starches, eat your fruits, and eat your vegetables. It contains everything you need. (we can have a conversation about B12, but that's a fairly complex issue).

FWIW, I agree that many people have a misconception regarding the quantity of protein needed for a healthy diet.  I didn't mean to imply that it was necessary to shovel in huge quantities of protein.  Just that adequate quantities of protein (along with carbohydrates, fat, and a host of micronutrients) are essential to a healthy diet.  Any diet that eliminates entire types of food, such as vegan does, requires some consideration of where everything is going to come from.

 



2015-04-17 4:53 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by Emer Food combining to get a "complete protein" has actually been discredited. This was the way of thinking at one time and I've certainly had health professionals try to push this theory on me. http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.php"It is very easy for a vegan diet to meet the recommendations for protein. Nearly all vegetables, beans, grains, nuts, and seeds contain some, and often much, protein. Fruits, sugars, fats, and alcohol do not provide much protein, so a diet based only on these foods would have a good chance of being too low in protein. ... Vegans eating varied diets containing vegetables, beans, grains, nuts, and seeds rarely have any difficulty getting enough protein as long as their diet contains enough energy (calories) to maintain weight. ... What about combining or complementing protein? Doesn’t that make the protein issue much more complex? Let’s look at a little background on the myth of complementing proteins. Protein is made up of amino acids, often described as its building blocks. We actually have a biological requirement for amino acids, not for protein. Humans cannot make nine of the twenty common amino acids, so these amino acids are considered to be essential. In other words, we must get these amino acids from our diets. We need all nine of these amino acids for our body to make protein. Some people say that eggs, cow’s milk, meat, and fish are high quality protein. This means that they have large amounts of all the essential amino acids. Soybeans, quinoa (a grain), and spinach also are considered high quality protein. Other protein sources of non-animal origin usually have all of the essential amino acids, but the amounts of one or two of these amino acids may be low. For example, grains are lower in lysine (an essential amino acid) and legumes are lower in methionine (another essential amino acid) than those protein sources designated as high quality protein. Frances Moore Lappe, in her book Diet for a Small Planet 6 advocated the combining of a food low in one amino acid with another food containing large amounts of that amino acid. This got to be a very complicated process, with each meal having specific amounts of certain foods in order to be certain of getting a favorable amino acid mix. Many people got discouraged with the complexity of this approach. Actually, Lappe was being overly conservative to avoid criticism from the “Nutrition Establishment.” She has since repudiated strict protein combining, saying, “In combating the myth that meat is the only way to get high quality protein, I reinforced another myth. I gave the impression that in order to get enough protein without meat, considerable care was needed in choosing foods. Actually it is much easier than I thought”... As an extreme example, even if you only ate one kind of grain, bean, potato, or vegetable as a protein source, and ate enough of that food, you could meet your protein and amino acid needs. Admittedly, it would be a very monotonous way to eat and you might miss out on other nutrients. We point this out, however, to illustrate the idea that almost all non-animal protein sources contain all of the essential amino acids..."

YES! thank you for writing this out, I'm tired of explaining it all the time.  Our current culture is obsessed with protein.  Why? Because marketing people hype it up.  Why does everything say X grams of protein! If they wrote it on the package, it must be a big deal.

Eat your starches, eat your fruits, and eat your vegetables. It contains everything you need. (we can have a conversation about B12, but that's a fairly complex issue).

FWIW, I agree that many people have a misconception regarding the quantity of protein needed for a healthy diet.  I didn't mean to imply that it was necessary to shovel in huge quantities of protein.  Just that adequate quantities of protein (along with carbohydrates, fat, and a host of micronutrients) are essential to a healthy diet.  Any diet that eliminates entire types of food, such as vegan does, requires some consideration of where everything is going to come from.

 

Definitely true.  I'd also like to clarify that I eat a "plant based" diet, not vegan. around 99% of my calories come from plant sources.  I occasionally (maybe once a month) eat meat, almost never dairy.  I think humans are meant to eat some meat, just not nearly as much as most people do. Maybe once every week or two. 

Again, another discussion, but I can say this.  I perform, recover, and feel much better on my plant based diet, than I did on my old diet.

2015-04-17 8:51 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?
I think about this sometimes.....Dad's in evolutionary genetics, so we talk sometimes about what people are adapted for, and how that lags behind the environment we live in today. My guess is that for most people in most places on earth for most of history, meat was a feast or famine affair--probably long periods of plant-based eating, maybe with tiny amounts of animal protein (bugs, bird eggs, small mammals and birds), and the occasional meat-fest when a large animal was killed. With no refrigeration, it probably had to be eaten quickly. For people living a more traditional life even now in developing countries, that is pretty much their diet even today, except that the meat might be slaughtered or purchased to celebrate a festival, rather than actually hunted.

Or maybe it's just how I justify my occasional steak (maybe once a month)!
2015-04-18 8:57 AM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?
Originally posted by mike761

What is your reason for wanting to be vegetarian or Vegan?

You can be healthy eating meat or not eating meat, but you need to educate yourself.

For protein during the day you need to get somewhere between .5g to 1g of protein per pound(goal body weight).

Looking at what you eat lets throw out a number of 120lbs is your body weight.

for endurance athletes its usually suggested to eat .5g - .75g of protein per lb. so if you are 120 lbs that would mean you should get 60g to 90g a day of protein. If you were body building you would want more, probably 120g plus.

your diet:
2 eggs- 12g
chicken- 30g
salmon- 40g
2 proteins shakes- 40-50g

this puts you around 122g plus per day. And that's just the animal protein you don't specify other items in your diet so you may be getting a lot more then this.

you don't specify what all those snack are, but that is usually where people run into problems.

Cut the process foods out of your diet and eat clean, you will feel much better.




This is a really great intial take at reaasons you may not be feeling well. I'm in full support of both vegan or vegetarian diets for triathletes and even body builders. Even with the assessment above suggesting you are currently taking in TWICE the amount of protein traditional nutrition would suggest you require, there are a lot of people who believe we need even less protein than that.

You state you feel like you couldn't "build muscle" eating vegan, but women in general don't build a lot of muscle bulk. I'm guessing what you were feeling is that your muscles didn't have a lot of energy or you weren't building endurance or speed, not necessarily muscle, unless you were specifically trying to build strength via low rep high weight exercises.

There are plenty of vegan body builders so the diet is not the issue (vegan, vegetarian, pescatarian, flexitarian, nutritarian, etc). The issue is getting adequate variety, maintaining good sources of fiber & hydration, greens & fruits (antioxidants & phytonutriets) that support the body's function, and not just eating calories.

Variety is the most important part of any diet.
2015-04-18 9:01 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Any Vegetarian or Vegan triathletes?
Originally posted by TriMyBest

Hmmm...Interesting.  I've attended many nutrition sessions at personal training conferences with some of the country's leaders in the field, receive the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research monthly, and this is the first time I've seen anything say it's been discredited.  The link you provided appears to be of a reputable source, and not a quack spouting pseudo-science, so I'll have to dig into it deeper and check the study references.  It's too lengthy for the amount of time I have available right now.  Thank you for sharing.

 




Not that we don't need compplete proteins, but they don't need to be eating together, just sometime during the same day-ish. The thought used to be taht the body can't store the amino acids long enough to wait for the "complete" essential ones to build new protein, but they stick around long enough that as long as your vegetable protein comes from a variety of sources you don't need to worry about getting the perfect combination. yes, we still need all the essential amino acids. They just don't need to be consumed at the same meal.
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