General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists? Rss Feed  
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2016-04-19 10:23 AM

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Subject: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?
From today's Telegraph (UK newspaper)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/recreational-cycling/why-are-our-cou...

This is an interesting article and I would imagine that it probably applies to the US too...


2016-04-19 10:34 AM
in reply to: LarchmontTri

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Deep in the Heart of Texas
Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?

I think the short answer would be most cycling deaths are a result of negligence as opposed to malice.  Even gross negligence, without an intoxication component, would likely not result in severe criminal charges.

2016-04-19 10:35 AM
in reply to: LarchmontTri

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Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?
I'm curious what the typical sentence (if any) is for a motorist who kills another motorist?

I'm ignorant as to whether a disparity exists - or not. They should be treated the same way.
2016-04-19 11:32 AM
in reply to: Hook'em

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Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?

Originally posted by Hook'em

I think the short answer would be most cycling deaths are a result of negligence as opposed to malice.  Even gross negligence, without an intoxication component, would likely not result in severe criminal charges.

Malice is also hard to prove.  But read any news article about a cyclist getting hit and scroll down to the comment threads.  There's a lot of malice out there.  Ride with that in mind.

2016-04-19 11:32 AM
in reply to: Hook'em

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Seattle
Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?

Originally posted by Hook'em

I think the short answer would be most cycling deaths are a result of negligence as opposed to malice.  Even gross negligence, without an intoxication component, would likely not result in severe criminal charges.

I think this is a big part of it.

I also think that there is a huge grey area in the law and understanding of the law for cyclists and how they interact with motorists. To  nc452010 point, I'd be curious to see how similar cases are handled if it's car v. car but we do have to admit, bicycles add a little different complexity. 

One of the cases cited said a truck driver was sentenced to 20 months in jail and banned from driving for a year for failing to use a turn signal. I realize that the impact of the error was the death of a cyclist, and that is incredibly unfortunate, but his crime was simply failing to turn his blinker on. 

 

2016-04-19 12:11 PM
in reply to: Hook'em

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Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?

Originally posted by Hook'em

I think the short answer would be most cycling deaths are a result of negligence as opposed to malice.  Even gross negligence, without an intoxication component, would likely not result in severe criminal charges.

Because the driver always makes the claim "because I didn't see him/her."  And for some reason, judges and juries somehow buy that as an excuse so that it falls more under an accident than negligence.  

When in reality, we all know that "I didn't see him/her" is really just a nicer way of saying "I wasn't looking," or "I wasn't paying attention," which does imply negligence.  The sooner we stop accepting "I didn't see him/her" as an excuse, the sooner we can start holding people accountable for their actions.



2016-04-19 12:20 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Durham, North Carolina
Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?
Originally posted by nc452010

I'm curious what the typical sentence (if any) is for a motorist who kills another motorist?

I'm ignorant as to whether a disparity exists - or not. They should be treated the same way.


Thats a good question. Anyone know the answer?

I don't know the legal terms, but I would agree that a majority are accidents and not malice. You can typically tell the jerks that are doing it on purpose because they come super close and then floor it. Honestly they scare me less than distracted parents or people texting. At least the jerks are paying attention when they buzz us.
2016-04-19 12:28 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?
I think the assumption, or perhaps definition, of malice is misplaced. I was hit by a driver who passed on my right to beat me to a stop sign. When they cut in they clipped my front tire and down I went, fracturing my hip. Then they drove off leaving me in the middle of the road. No, they were never identified.

I don't believe they intended to hit me, but that act was dangerous and illegal. Certainly more irresponsible than failing to signal. They drove off I presume for fear of being liable, however that is seldom the case.

There was a case recently here in San Jose where a young woman veered into a bike lane and killed a cyclist. Rather than stopping, she drove six miles to a coffee shop and called her father. After a brief investigation authorities "were considering" charges. As is often the case, it has been impossible to find any follow-up to this story but what exactly is there to consider? How about we start with vehicular manslaughter and felony hit and run and go from there. She was NOT arrested at the time.

Incomprehensible to me.
2016-04-19 12:37 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Seattle
Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by Hook'em

I think the short answer would be most cycling deaths are a result of negligence as opposed to malice.  Even gross negligence, without an intoxication component, would likely not result in severe criminal charges.

Because the driver always makes the claim "because I didn't see him/her."  And for some reason, judges and juries somehow buy that as an excuse so that it falls more under an accident than negligence.  

When in reality, we all know that "I didn't see him/her" is really just a nicer way of saying "I wasn't looking," or "I wasn't paying attention," which does imply negligence.  The sooner we stop accepting "I didn't see him/her" as an excuse, the sooner we can start holding people accountable for their actions.

Sometimes. I came extremely close to hitting a cyclists abut a month ago and truly, it was because I didn't see him. He was riding on the sidewalk (which is a whole different can of worms) and I was pulling out of an area that had no visibility to the sidewalk until I was in it. The combination of poor visibility along with him moving at a speed exceeding what this section of sidewalk was designed for put us both it a bad position. I'm all for accountability but it's often not black and white.
2016-04-19 12:57 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Deep in the Heart of Texas
Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by Hook'em

I think the short answer would be most cycling deaths are a result of negligence as opposed to malice.  Even gross negligence, without an intoxication component, would likely not result in severe criminal charges.

Because the driver always makes the claim "because I didn't see him/her."  And for some reason, judges and juries somehow buy that as an excuse so that it falls more under an accident than negligence.  

When in reality, we all know that "I didn't see him/her" is really just a nicer way of saying "I wasn't looking," or "I wasn't paying attention," which does imply negligence.  The sooner we stop accepting "I didn't see him/her" as an excuse, the sooner we can start holding people accountable for their actions.

Both of the scenarios you mention deal with negligence, not criminal activity.  This thread was about criminal courts being soft on drivers, not civil courts.  Whether or not juries award damages in wrongful death cases is a different issue.

 

2016-04-19 1:05 PM
in reply to: Lupy

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Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?

Originally posted by Lupy
Originally posted by nc452010 I'm curious what the typical sentence (if any) is for a motorist who kills another motorist? I'm ignorant as to whether a disparity exists - or not. They should be treated the same way.
Thats a good question. Anyone know the answer? I don't know the legal terms, but I would agree that a majority are accidents and not malice. You can typically tell the jerks that are doing it on purpose because they come super close and then floor it. Honestly they scare me less than distracted parents or people texting. At least the jerks are paying attention when they buzz us.

In Florida vehicular manslaughter is a 2nd degree felony, with a maximum of 15 years.  

The teenage son of some friends of ours was convicted of DUI manslaughter several years ago when he ran a red light an killed the teenage daughter of another family we know,  He was sentenced to 10 years.

I've followed similar cases in FL since then and the sentences seem to be all over the place, especially if it is just vehicular manslaughter with no DUI.

Mark

 

 

 



2016-04-19 1:14 PM
in reply to: Hook'em

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Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?
Originally posted by Hook'em

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by Hook'em

I think the short answer would be most cycling deaths are a result of negligence as opposed to malice.  Even gross negligence, without an intoxication component, would likely not result in severe criminal charges.

Because the driver always makes the claim "because I didn't see him/her."  And for some reason, judges and juries somehow buy that as an excuse so that it falls more under an accident than negligence.  

When in reality, we all know that "I didn't see him/her" is really just a nicer way of saying "I wasn't looking," or "I wasn't paying attention," which does imply negligence.  The sooner we stop accepting "I didn't see him/her" as an excuse, the sooner we can start holding people accountable for their actions.

Both of the scenarios you mention deal with negligence, not criminal activity.  This thread was about criminal courts being soft on drivers, not civil courts.  Whether or not juries award damages in wrongful death cases is a different issue.

 


Doug our laws make a distinction between offenses all the time based on the outcome. If you are speeding and get caught you get a ticket. If you are speeding and hit a car, the offense is considered more serious. If you are speeding and kill someone, the consequences are more serious still.

Some of these cases do involve holding a phone while talking or texting, which is a crime. Even if you don't want to consider the act a crime, how about negligent homicide? If someone is so negligent that they veer into a well marked bike lane where a cyclist is legally riding and the driver strikes and kills that person, I have zero problem calling that a homicide, even if the act is negligent and not criminal.
2016-04-19 2:24 PM
in reply to: LarchmontTri

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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?
The bigger question, for me anyway, is what do we want the outcome to be. i.e. do we think that by increasing penalties to negligent drivers, that drivers as a whole will look up from their phones, signal properly, give cyclists plenty of room, etc. Or is it more along the lines of vengeance or payback? I saw a study that showed that although the large majority of those polled agreed that texting while driving was very dangerous, many of them still partook, and the most common reason was that they felt that *they* were capable of doing it safely, but not other people. In other words, it was the "it'll never happen to me" syndrome.

My attitude has changed a bit with my recent move from South Florida to Texas. When I was in Florida, there were only one or two rides where I went the whole time without incident. Everything from being run off the road, flipped off, buzzed (A LOT) pulled in front of, etc. It was constant, and worse, it was malicious. If I had chimed in then, I would have agreed that any driver that kills a cyclist needs the book thrown at them. That was because I was living in a culture where there was a very large segment of the population who would either purposefully act in an aggressive/malicious manner or simply take my safety for granted by not bothering to move over to provide a 3' breadth of space, etc. Since I've been here, it has been the polar opposite. Six months and I can only think of one time someone even came close to me. I honestly didn't even think it was that bad (probably from all the time in Florida) but the cop behind them certainly did, and they got pulled over. So now I'd be more apt to give someone the benefit of the doubt.

There is an obvious cultural difference in the two areas, and I think it'd be more beneficial to see what drives that difference. Because understanding that would, in my mind, lead to positive changes.
2016-04-19 2:36 PM
in reply to: Stuartap

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Deep in the Heart of Texas
Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?

I am not condoning anyone's actions - negligent or criminal.  If there is a criminal case that can be made, it should be taken to the grand jury.  I don't disagree that distracted driving that results in a collision is negligent or even grossly negligent.  However, criminally negligent homicide/manslaughter is used for egregious actions involving intoxication, high speed chases, or other situations involving wanton disregard for the lives of others (usually felony offenses).  Legislators could enact laws making it a felony to crash a vehicle into a cyclist/pedestrian while texting or talking on the phone, but, as far as I know, none have.

So my answer to the OP's question stands.  Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?  Because, under the law, most cases involve negligence as opposed to the malice (as required to be found guilty of a crime).    

2016-04-19 3:46 PM
in reply to: Hook'em

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Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?
If only more roads had bike lanes, or better yet, if there were more pathways dedicated to cyclists.
2016-04-19 5:01 PM
in reply to: LarchmontTri


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Sarasota, Florida
Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?
I don't have the answer but Sarasota is scary. My neighbor is an insurance guy and claims there were 75 deaths in 2 years between 2 exits from accidents alone, and there are roughly 150 vehicle-bicycle accidents a year in this area. I know Florida state law requires the head lamp to be visible 500 feet away and the tail light 600 feet away. From what I understand you have to buy some pretty lights to make that requirement and I wonder how many cyclists do.

As for me, I do laps at the park or map a route that has sidewalks, I simply don't trust the bike lane to be respected. I have had some conversations with out of state drivers that didn't even realize a bike lane existed and simply thought cyclists were driving into their territory. The response given after I explained there IS a lane for cyclists is there shouldn't be one because it's too dangerous putting cyclists that close to traffic. Some awareness might help. I've been tempted to get a bumper sticker or something.


2016-04-19 5:16 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?

Originally posted by Asalzwed
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by Hook'em

I think the short answer would be most cycling deaths are a result of negligence as opposed to malice.  Even gross negligence, without an intoxication component, would likely not result in severe criminal charges.

Because the driver always makes the claim "because I didn't see him/her."  And for some reason, judges and juries somehow buy that as an excuse so that it falls more under an accident than negligence.  

When in reality, we all know that "I didn't see him/her" is really just a nicer way of saying "I wasn't looking," or "I wasn't paying attention," which does imply negligence.  The sooner we stop accepting "I didn't see him/her" as an excuse, the sooner we can start holding people accountable for their actions.

Sometimes. I came extremely close to hitting a cyclists abut a month ago and truly, it was because I didn't see him. He was riding on the sidewalk (which is a whole different can of worms) and I was pulling out of an area that had no visibility to the sidewalk until I was in it. The combination of poor visibility along with him moving at a speed exceeding what this section of sidewalk was designed for put us both it a bad position. I'm all for accountability but it's often not black and white.

For some reason I pictured you running out of an area that had no visibility to the sidewalk, nearly getting hit by a cyclist, then hitting him with your fist.

2016-04-19 5:27 PM
in reply to: spudone

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Seattle
Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by Asalzwed
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by Hook'em

I think the short answer would be most cycling deaths are a result of negligence as opposed to malice.  Even gross negligence, without an intoxication component, would likely not result in severe criminal charges.

Because the driver always makes the claim "because I didn't see him/her."  And for some reason, judges and juries somehow buy that as an excuse so that it falls more under an accident than negligence.  

When in reality, we all know that "I didn't see him/her" is really just a nicer way of saying "I wasn't looking," or "I wasn't paying attention," which does imply negligence.  The sooner we stop accepting "I didn't see him/her" as an excuse, the sooner we can start holding people accountable for their actions.

Sometimes. I came extremely close to hitting a cyclists abut a month ago and truly, it was because I didn't see him. He was riding on the sidewalk (which is a whole different can of worms) and I was pulling out of an area that had no visibility to the sidewalk until I was in it. The combination of poor visibility along with him moving at a speed exceeding what this section of sidewalk was designed for put us both it a bad position. I'm all for accountability but it's often not black and white.

For some reason I pictured you running out of an area that had no visibility to the sidewalk, nearly getting hit by a cyclist, then hitting him with your fist.

Oh yes, there was that one time...

2016-04-19 5:30 PM
in reply to: marti038

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Seattle
Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?

Originally posted by marti038 If only more roads had bike lanes, or better yet, if there were more pathways dedicated to cyclists.

Yeah, I think ultimately an infrastructure that is separated from vehicular traffic is the solution. But it's hard to convince tax payers the benefits of funding these kinds of projects. 

2016-04-19 7:43 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?
On another note a big story in NJ today is about a school district superintendent was struck and killed by a car this morning while out for a run with his dog. He was running on a main road (part of the bike course for the NJ State Triathlon) when a student on her way to school hit him. Just another reason to stress being aware of your surroundings when running. I stopped wearing headphones while running partly because of this. i would never think of wearing them while cycling.

Be safe out there. A split second distraction by a driver of a car or a runner in their own world with an iPod can change your life.
2016-04-19 11:54 PM
in reply to: 0

Master
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, California
Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by marti038 If only more roads had bike lanes, or better yet, if there were more pathways dedicated to cyclists.

Yeah, I think ultimately an infrastructure that is separated from vehicular traffic is the solution. But it's hard to convince tax payers the benefits of funding these kinds of projects. 

A few people will complain about a city spending money on bike lanes.  But if the city doesn't, then they get completely aggravated when bikes are in "the car" lane.  They'll also complain about bikes not paying for road upkeep (um... most of us have a car).  Basically they've already made up their minds.  The best we can do is ride defensively and politely and be as visible as possible.



Edited by spudone 2016-04-19 11:56 PM


2016-04-20 2:08 PM
in reply to: spudone


8

Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?
I started road biking while serving with the Army in Italy. Probably the best place in the world to cycle. They truly see bicycles as another vehicle on the road. An Italian driver will come to a complete stop if there is oncoming traffic. In the states it seems totally different. Motorist will often get over but this is done with an attitude that roads were built for cars and cycling is tolerated. I have found, even here in the deep south, motorist will never stop for a cyclist. This attitude is probably the most dangerous thing.

By the way, we were told that hitting a cyclist in Italy was a horrendous offense and taken VERY seriously.
2016-04-20 4:43 PM
in reply to: LarchmontTri

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Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?

http://www.redlandsdailyfacts.com/article/ZZ/20121003/NEWS/121008845

Three years probation for nearly cut a cyclist in half.  That's about as soft as it gets.

On a separate note, I had a guy start honking his horn at me from behind yesterday as he went by and then made his right turn a few feet in front of my wheel.  Hey, at least he found his horn, which is apparently much easier to reach than the brake pedal.

2016-04-20 5:10 PM
in reply to: LarchmontTri

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Rio Rancho, NM
Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?

New Mexico PBS recently aired a documentary about cycling/pedestrian/motorcycle safety in NM.  It was fairly well done and they spoke with a local teen who was struck while riding his bike.  Unfortunately, the people who would benefit from watching it, wouldn't likely watch it.

2016-04-20 7:59 PM
in reply to: spudone


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Subject: RE: Why are our courts so soft on drivers who kill cyclists?
Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by marti038 If only more roads had bike lanes, or better yet, if there were more pathways dedicated to cyclists.

Yeah, I think ultimately an infrastructure that is separated from vehicular traffic is the solution. But it's hard to convince tax payers the benefits of funding these kinds of projects. 

A few people will complain about a city spending money on bike lanes.  But if the city doesn't, then they get completely aggravated when bikes are in "the car" lane.  They'll also complain about bikes not paying for road upkeep (um... most of us have a car).  Basically they've already made up their minds.  The best we can do is ride defensively and politely and be as visible as possible.




Just tought I would mention most street we use are municipal streets. You and I are therefore as entitled to the streets as much any other municipal tax payer.

Most of the time it is a matter of behaving in a respectfull, mindfull manner toward others. I Couldn't agree more with your statement.
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