How to address my weak leg: bike

2017-09-26 7:14 AM

Subject: How to address my weak leg: bike

Hi there, after several years of cycling I started running and then I picked up again swimming.

From there, going into triathlon was a small step. Unlike most advices, my first tri race was a half-distance IM followed shortly after by a full distance IM (Vichy 2016, France). My splits were the following (1h17'15" swim, 4'52" T1, 5h34"11" bike, 2'44" T2, 3h48'24" run, total 10h47'26"). This year, I committed mostly to the Maratona dles Dolomites Gran Fondo and to the NY marathon which will be next November (goal sub 3 hours).

I did though an Olympic tri with the following splits (23'40" swim, 4'58" T1, 1h11'20" bike, 1'29" T2, 41'15" run, total 2h22'42"). Looking at the leaderboards leg by leg, my strong one is running while my weakest by far is biking.

I wonder if this is to be addressed mainly to the bike setup and very bad positioning (road bike with clip-on aerobars) or to a lack of power. In the Oly there was some headwind and crosswind for most of the course; I averaged 227w (NP 233w) and weighing 64kg that puts me at 3.54 w/kg.

Thanks in advance for any reply.

2017-09-26 9:41 AM

in reply to: saraccogiorgio

1502

Katy, Texas

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

Originally posted by saraccogiorgio

Hi there, after several years of cycling I started running and then I picked up again swimming.

From there, going into triathlon was a small step. Unlike most advices, my first tri race was a half-distance IM followed shortly after by a full distance IM (Vichy 2016, France). My splits were the following (1h17'15" swim, 4'52" T1, 5h34"11" bike, 2'44" T2, 3h48'24" run, total 10h47'26"). This year, I committed mostly to the Maratona dles Dolomites Gran Fondo and to the NY marathon which will be next November (goal sub 3 hours).

I did though an Olympic tri with the following splits (23'40" swim, 4'58" T1, 1h11'20" bike, 1'29" T2, 41'15" run, total 2h22'42"). Looking at the leaderboards leg by leg, my strong one is running while my weakest by far is biking.

I wonder if this is to be addressed mainly to the bike setup and very bad positioning (road bike with clip-on aerobars) or to a lack of power. In the Oly there was some headwind and crosswind for most of the course; I averaged 227w (NP 233w) and weighing 64kg that puts me at 3.54 w/kg.

Thanks in advance for any reply.

There is probably some low hanging fruit on your bike, position, clothes, etc to get you more aero. This is assuming your PM is accurate. On my tri bike, in full race gear, 227 watts would get me sub 1hr on a flat oly course and I'm 10 kg heavier than you.

The other variable here is that race courses are rarely accurate. IM branded races tend to be pretty darn close more often than not, but outside of that, I rarely (make that never) have seen a true course distance. So judging by your times (regarding what your weak leg actually is) is difficult. What was your % of total finishers for each leg for the races you completed? That will give you a better idea on what you need to work on.

2017-09-26 9:51 AM

in reply to: 3mar

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

Hi there, thanks for taking the time to answer. My power meter is a power tap p1 pedal (double sided), I don't have terms of comparison but it is claimed to be rather accurate. It is rather new, bought it in April, when all the software issues were long gone.

My gps device on the olympic recorded 40,39 km (slightly more than what advertised!). Leg by leg results are as follows

swim 38th man (division 5th)
bike 81st man (division 11th)
run 25th man (division 7th)

total 31st man (division 7th)

Male finishers were 403, while in my division 24.

2017-09-26 9:54 AM

in reply to: saraccogiorgio

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

Small addendum, I did screw up a bit just out of T1 effectively losing 30 seconds.

Race course was flat, 56 meters uphill gain (less than 200 feet). Wind definitely played a role, but can't say for sure how much it slowed me down (nevertheless it slowed down other competitors as well).

2017-09-26 12:08 PM

in reply to: saraccogiorgio

1502

Katy, Texas

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

It does seem then that your bike leg is the weakest. Given your speed vs power, I'd say that position could be a big issue. Do you have a video of your bike fit? Something taken from the side while you're pedaling on a trainer? Also, are you on your aerobars the entire time? That, to me, is the biggie. I see more people out of their aero bars than in them during a race. I only come out of aero if I'm going around a very sharp turn (<90 degree angle), going up a steep hill where my speed drops below 12 mph (I read somewhere that that is where aero affects diminish greatly) or going through a bottle hand off, and that's it. During an IM I will lift up to stretch for 20-30 seconds maybe two or three times towards the end, but not for a shorter distance. Doing all your training rides with a lot of discipline helps that too.You should look at clothes too. What kind of helmet do you have? Do you use a sleeved tri suit or top? Another thing is rolling resistance; what kind of tires/tubes do you use? And finally (or at least what I can think of for now) are you using aero carbon wheels? A full disc, or disc cover for your back wheel?

With your watts/kg, I would say you should be going a lot faster on a flat course.

2017-09-26 2:05 PM

in reply to: 3mar

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

I don't have any video atm, I attach a picture from last year IM. Bike and clothing are the same but the shoes, I bought tri-shoes.

I usually stay always on the aerobars but for sharp turns and roundabouts that require more than a 180 degrees turn.

Tires are standard clinchers, mounted on standard wheels with low profile. Helmet is normal one.

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2017-09-26 2:16 PM

in reply to: 0

1502

Katy, Texas

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

Your position doesn't look too bad, but I can't tell for sure from that picture.

Here are some things that can make you more efficient, from cheapest to most expensive:

- Drop the gloves, they don't do anything when in aero (at least in my opinion) if nothing else it will take time off your T1
- Move your bottles and mounts from your seat tube/down tube to having one between your arms on the aero bars and a second behind your seat
- Aero helmet
- Continental GP4000IIs tires with latex tubes
- Disc cover for back wheel
- Sleeved tri top or tri suit with properly tight fitting sleeves
- Professional bike fit (but if you're going to upgrade to a tri bike, hold off until then)
- Deep carbon front wheel (you can get away with the stock wheel in the back with the cover)
- Entry level tri bike frame, or if you have a bunch of money laying around...
- High end tri bike frame
and if you still have wads of cash hanging around you can spring for a carbon disk rear wheel

This is all purchased speed. You can always do more gut busting workouts on the trainer and gain power too. Or do both!

Edited by 3mar 2017-09-26 2:19 PM

2017-09-26 2:17 PM

in reply to: 0

1502

Katy, Texas

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

double post

Edited by 3mar 2017-09-26 2:18 PM

2017-09-26 3:46 PM

in reply to: 3mar

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

Originally posted by 3mar
- Deep carbon front wheel (you can get away with the stock wheel in the back with the cover)

I might consider buying a pair of wheels. What do you mean by deep? Is 50mm deep enough? As I am lightweight I think I might suffer handling the bike in crosswind with deeper profiles. I read somewhere that when you use carbon wheels you lose something in braking properties.

As I'm not quitting regular road biking as I will keep doing few Gran Fondos, do you think 50mm wheels are suitable for both triathlons and road biking?

Originally posted by 3mar
- Entry level tri bike frame, or if you have a bunch of money laying around...
- High end tri bike frame

Problem on tri-bike frames is that in short triathlons (which I might approach sooner or later) and a bunch of olympic triathlons here in Europe are draft legal, so one must use a regular handlebar. I should then be looking on road bikes with an aggressive geometry (aero road bikes) with steeper angles of the seat tube?

Your input is very much appreciated, thanks again.

2017-09-26 4:31 PM

in reply to: 0

Extreme Veteran

5722

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

Originally posted by saraccogiorgio

Originally posted by 3mar
- Deep carbon front wheel (you can get away with the stock wheel in the back with the cover)

Originally posted by 3mar
- Entry level tri bike frame, or if you have a bunch of money laying around...
- High end tri bike frame

Before dumping money into equipment you should do a little testing.
While your OLY time on 227 watts isn't great, a 5h34 IM time is reasonable. I don't know what you held for wattage, but if you hold 227 on an Oly, Im guessing 160 ? If so, it's not that bad.
Aero road and wheels are not going to buy you a lot. IMO

Edited by marcag 2017-09-26 4:33 PM

2017-09-26 4:40 PM

in reply to: marcag

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

Originally posted by marcag
Before dumping money into equipment you should do a little testing.
While your OLY time on 227 watts isn't great, a 5h34 IM time is reasonable. I don't know what you held for wattage, but if you hold 227 on an Oly, Im guessing 160 ? If so, it's not that bad.

By testing you mean `go out, hold constant wattage for some time in aereo-position and check results'? Do you have any recommended protocol to do something like that?

Unluckily at the time of my IM I had no power meter. Strava estimates the average wattage held in 164w.

2017-09-27 4:29 AM

in reply to: 0

Extreme Veteran

5722

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

Originally posted by saraccogiorgio

If you can hold 227 for an Oly 160ish for an IM makes sense. Maybe very low 160. So Strava isn't far off and 5h34 is not that bad.

Best way to test is with something called Aerolab in Golden Cheetah but it's kind of techie and not for everyone. There is a thread on Slowtwitch called the Platypus thread that explains it. But it's kind of techy

Other way is, as you say, constant power on a flat straight, testing out and back to account for wind.

Some of the tips you got are good tips. Just don't expect big gains from a aero road frame or slightly deeper wheels. That will be low gains for large dollars. (IMO).

Tires and a helmet MAY be 'lower cost" solutions for you.

Edited by marcag 2017-09-27 4:59 AM

Donto

2017-09-27 9:08 AM

in reply to: saraccogiorgio

Pro

6582

Melbourne FL

Gold member

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

Originally posted by saraccogiorgio I don't have any video atm, I attach a picture from last year IM. Bike and clothing are the same but the shoes, I bought tri-shoes. I usually stay always on the aerobars but for sharp turns and roundabouts that require more than a 180 degrees turn. Tires are standard clinchers, mounted on standard wheels with low profile. Helmet is normal one.

If you haven't seen this article before, there is a lot of aero savings to be had on an optimized tri-bike position vs optimized road bike w/AB. The tables show ~20-40W comparing the two different bikes and the various setups, so where you are at equipment wise there are a lot of W to be saved. You say "standard" tires, depending on what tire it is, there can be quite a bit of savings (5-10W) with a good to excellent tire (such as minimum of Conti GP4000) with latex tubes. Plenty of faster tires available too as can be seen in the spreadsheet link on this blog page. Used mid spec tri-bikes can be had fairly cheep over new. This summer I sold my 2013 Felt B12 and FLO 60/90 wheels for $1850.

2017-09-27 10:37 AM

in reply to: 0

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

Originally posted by marcag
Best way to test is with something called Aerolab in Golden Cheetah but it's kind of techie and not for everyone. There is a thread on Slowtwitch called the Platypus thread that explains it. But it's kind of techy

Other way is, as you say, constant power on a flat straight, testing out and back to account for wind.

Nice call on that aerolab techie thing, I will definitely try it.

Originally posted by marcag
Tires and a helmet MAY be 'lower cost" solutions for you.

Originally posted by Donto
You say "standard" tires, depending on what tire it is, there can be quite a bit of savings (5-10W) with a good to excellent tire (such as minimum of Conti GP4000) with latex tubes. Plenty of faster tires available too as can be seen in the spreadsheet link on this blog page. Used mid spec tri-bikes can be had fairly cheep over new. This summer I sold my 2013 Felt B12 and FLO 60/90 wheels for $1850.

I didn't even know there were latex tubes, and didn't imagine at all the tyres made such a difference. Which latex tubes are you actually using? Is GP continental the best tyre for clinchers? From the linked spreadsheet my understanding is that the Vittoria Corsa TLR are the best.

How are they placed puncture resistance-wise?

Originally posted by Donto
If you haven't seen this article before, there is a lot of aero savings to be had on an optimized tri-bike position vs optimized road bike w/AB. The tables show ~20-40W comparing the two different bikes and the various setups, so where you are at equipment wise there are a lot of W to be saved.

Great read, thanks for pointing it to me. The best then would be having two bikes, a road one for GFondos and strolling with friends, and a tri-bike. As I might consider a new wheelset, would 62,5mm be good for both GFondos and no-draft Triathlons?

Looking here and there, I got interested into the Swiss Side Hadron 625 with aluminium braking surface; do you have any direct experience in these?

Edited by saraccogiorgio 2017-09-27 10:38 AM

2017-09-27 4:10 PM

in reply to: saraccogiorgio

Extreme Veteran

5722

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

Originally posted by saraccogiorgio

Looking here and there, I got interested into the Swiss Side Hadron 625 with aluminium braking surface; do you have any direct experience in these?

Direct experience : no, never owned a pair
But Swiss Side are known for excellent products and I have seen test data and they are good, fast wheels.
The aluminum braking track version is not tubeless ready (I believe but not sure)

2017-09-27 4:30 PM

in reply to: marcag

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

Originally posted by marcag
Swiss Side are known for excellent products and I have seen test data and they are good, fast wheels.
The aluminum braking track version is not tubeless ready (I believe but not sure)

You are right, it is not. Only the Ultimate version is (the full carbon one). Does tubeless technology favor speed?

Does being tubeless and full carbon justify the 700 euros difference? (Hadron 625 wheelset 1047 euros, Hadron 625+ wheelset 1723 euros) Or would that money be better spent on a aereo helmet, aereo bottle holder, bottle tank, bike fit etc.?

2017-09-27 5:07 PM

in reply to: saraccogiorgio

Extreme Veteran

5722

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

Originally posted by saraccogiorgio

NO, It does not justify the extra cost. One could argue that an alum brake track is better, especially with clinchers.

JoelO

2017-09-27 7:07 PM

in reply to: saraccogiorgio

Member

622

Franklin, TN

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

You've gotten a lot of good tips from 3Mar and marcaq.

Regarding the tires, the Vittoria Corsas are fast but I've seen a lot of comments from people that say they puncture fairly easily. The Continental GP4000 II's are pretty fast and bomb proof. I use them with latex tubes for races and use them with butyl tubes for training. Vittoria latex tubes (they're pink) work well for me. If you use them in a race, have a butyl tube in your flat kit...the latex tube takes a little more care with regard to installing and you wouldn't want to waste that type of time if you flat in a race.

That helmet is probably doing you no favors aero-wise. If you don't want to go with a full aero helmet, there are most likely better choices in the aero/road category. ie. Specialized Evade, Bontrager Ballista, Giro Synthe, Scott Cadence Plus ... there are others but those are the ones that come to mind. As always, testing is the best way to sort them out but the ones I listed generally get favorable reviews.

ziggie204

2017-09-27 8:14 PM

in reply to: JoelO

1055	Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike 3.5 w/kg isn't bad, all the equipment changes will help close the gap. . . but there is certainly room for improvement in your power. You won't be leading the bike leg at 3.5 even with all the aero savings so keep working hard on the bike. My Race Log

2017-09-28 6:09 AM

in reply to: ziggie204

Extreme Veteran

5722

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

Originally posted by ziggie204

3.5 w/kg isn't bad, all the equipment changes will help close the gap. . . but there is certainly room for improvement in your power. You won't be leading the bike leg at 3.5 even with all the aero savings so keep working hard on the bike.

^ this.

Use that powermeter to execute a well structured training plan and you will improve.

Work harder to get fitter
Work smarter to get fitter and use those watts efficiently

dmiller5

2017-09-28 6:49 AM

in reply to: marcag

Extreme Veteran

3025

Maryland

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

aero helmet and taking the gloves off will save you 2.5 minutes. If you didn't shave, shaving your arms and legs and taking off those compression things will save you another minute.

dmiller5

2017-09-28 6:50 AM

in reply to: ziggie204

Extreme Veteran

3025

Maryland

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

I've led the bike around 3.5 w/kg before. its not about w/kg in tri, its about w/CdA

2017-10-03 8:13 AM

in reply to: dmiller5

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

Update: I bought a Hadron 625 wheelset (the mixed one carb with aluminium braking surface).

I will be using it with race 28 conti butyl tubes for training and vittoria latex for racing. By googling here and there it seems to me that in the past I've been inflating the tubes too much. How many psi would you recommend for the above setup (rims are 27mm) for a 75kg system (rider+bike)?

dmiller5

2017-10-03 11:19 AM

in reply to: saraccogiorgio

Extreme Veteran

3025

Maryland

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

around 100 psi

Donto

2017-10-03 12:32 PM

in reply to: saraccogiorgio

Pro

6582

Melbourne FL

Gold member

Subject: RE: How to address my weak leg: bike

Originally posted by saraccogiorgio Update: I bought a Hadron 625 wheelset (the mixed one carb with aluminium braking surface). I will be using it with race 28 conti butyl tubes for training and vittoria latex for racing. By googling here and there it seems to me that in the past I've been inflating the tubes too much. How many psi would you recommend for the above setup (rims are 27mm) for a 75kg system (rider+bike)?

28c wide Conti's? Has to be a typo. any way, probably not as much as you think. At 90kg system I was racing on 23c Conti GP4000's and on some recently paved roads (smooth) at 100 psi. On older rougher roads I went with 85-90 psi for training and racing. This was with FLO Cycling Al/carbon fairing wheels (27mm fairing, 25mm brake track, 19.4mm internal width). FWIW, I stooped changing out my tubes and just left the latex in them all the time!