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 2018-01-02 12:30 PM |
Champion  10154    Alabama |  Subject: PakistanEvidently the US has given Pakistan more than $33 billion in aid over the last 15 years. Fundamentally how do we as a country justify taking $33 billion dollars from US tax payers and giving it to another country? I know we do this to many countries and I assume there is a strategic reason for some of it. I have little doubt that the Pakistanis knew where OBL was for 10 years and refused to give him up. I think it is time for the US to take a hard look at ALL foreign aid and decide if we are getting the bang for the buck that we think we are. Using "that's how much we gave them last year" is not good. I'd also like to see a full accounting of how much and why we give away. Humanitarian aid I understand and agree with it as long as it makes it to the people and not corrupt politicians. Military aid I agree provided it is in our best interest. On a related note, I'm glad to read we are reducing our contribution to the UN. I think the UN is mostly a joke....a toothless tiger. |
| 2018-01-02 12:57 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
Expert 2373 Floriduh | Subject: RE: Pakistan Rog, Some of that money is designated "aid" but is specifically earmarked for the procurement of US military hardware. So if that $ gets cut off a lot of lobbyists are going to start yelping. Undoubtedly, we have given Pakistan $ because we were fighting a war in their land-locked neighbor, with the only other alternative being other land-locked former soviet states (ie, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan) or Iran. With that said, they haven't exactly been the coolest of allies (harboring OBL for example), maybe cutting off the cash is a good idea as long as their gov't doesn't collapse and become another Afghanistan ... but with nukes. This one ain't so easy. |
| 2018-01-02 1:21 PM in reply to: Oysterboy |
Extreme Veteran 1106 , Connecticut | Subject: RE: Pakistan While many think we give 20-30% of our budget in foreign aid, it's closer to 1%. Correct about it being a tax-payer gift to U.S. corporations, but mostly it's through the State Department and it's to have strategic influence around the world. It is the alternative to warfare, another way to further our interests. It has nothing to do with bleeding heart do-gooders. It often isn't the best thing of the citizens, again it is in the end for our benefit. Just out of curiousity, have you ever thanked Pres. Obama for hunting down and killing OBL. Bust didn't do it. |
| 2018-01-02 1:24 PM in reply to: Oysterboy |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Pakistan Originally posted by Oysterboy Rog, Some of that money is designated "aid" but is specifically earmarked for the procurement of US military hardware. So if that $ gets cut off a lot of lobbyists are going to start yelping. Undoubtedly, we have given Pakistan $ because we were fighting a war in their land-locked neighbor, with the only other alternative being other land-locked former soviet states (ie, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan) or Iran. With that said, they haven't exactly been the coolest of allies (harboring OBL for example), maybe cutting off the cash is a good idea as long as their gov't doesn't collapse and become another Afghanistan ... but with nukes. This one ain't so easy. Good points....but I think India ought to be footing most of the bill. When I think of India/Pakistan I always think of the movie Vertical Limit and K2. The part where the Pakistani general says, "0900. Time to wake up the Indians". Evidently that 'border war' has been going on for years. The most intense movie scene ever. And the most poignant statement of what it means to be a parent. Funny thing, I've seen this clip dozens of times and every time I watch it, my monitor gets blurry. Must be a codec thing with utube..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvVoO5cKiSk |
| 2018-01-02 1:34 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Pakistan I just get blurry eyed from the poor acting......I want that time of my life back. That clip is dumb. |
| 2018-01-02 1:36 PM in reply to: MuscleMomma |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Pakistan Originally posted by MuscleMomma Just out of curiousity, have you ever thanked Pres. Obama for hunting down and killing OBL. Bust didn't do it. You mean the CIA and Navy Seals who hunted OBL down and killed him. Just happened to have occurred on B. Hussein Obama's watch. I've also seen the argument that the intel that led to finding OBL can be traced back to enhanced interrogation techniques....but that's another story. No matter, I never put much stock in OBL anyway....I am glad he sleep with the fishes but we are at war with an ideology. Cut of the head and another head suddenly appears. |
| 2018-01-02 1:37 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Pakistan Originally posted by Left Brain I just get blurry eyed from the poor acting......I want that time of my life back. That clip is dumb. Hmmm, did I post the right clip. I can't view utube from this computer....I grabbed the one I thought was the opening scene. |
| 2018-01-02 2:10 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
Extreme Veteran 1106 , Connecticut | Subject: RE: Pakistan Don't know if we can chalk trumps statement about giving Pakistan $33 billion in aid as ignorance or an outright lie but here's what FOX has said: http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2011/05/11/did-pakistan.html |
| 2018-01-02 2:33 PM in reply to: MuscleMomma |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Pakistan Originally posted by MuscleMomma Don't know if we can chalk trumps statement about giving Pakistan $33 billion in aid as ignorance or an outright lie but here's what FOX has said: http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2011/05/11/did-pakistan.html Hmmm Another source, Wikipedia: In total, the United States obligated nearly $78.3 billion to Pakistan between 1948 and 2016 (adjusted to 2016 value of dollar). My OP question remains, is the US justified in giving even $1 of US taxpayer's money to a foreign government? The fact that Obama gave Iran $1.7 billion dollars just makes me ill! Only thing we should give them are bombs. They are the number one state sponsorer of terrorism in the world by most accounts. |
| 2018-01-03 1:41 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
Extreme Veteran 1106 , Connecticut | Subject: RE: Pakistan You are now bringing in the time period of the Marshall Plan which brought us decades of peace. You clearly are not interested in my answer which you must not have read. Yes, giving money to other countries through the State Department is the way we have maintained our influence, our dominance, on the world stage. It is a tool of diplomacy giving us another tool other than war. What it has all accomplished is something neither one of us is qualified to answer, as with most arguments from trump supporters who don't think the world is any more complicated than a schoolyard fight. In a globalized world, our turning out back on our role as leader of the free world will not bring jobs back, or make the world any safer. It will lead to our increasing irrelevance and the rise of either China or Russia. I world I don't look forward to. |
| 2018-01-03 2:15 PM in reply to: MuscleMomma |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Pakistan Originally posted by MuscleMomma as with most arguments from trump supporters who don't think the world is any more complicated than a schoolyard fight. Condescending statements like this tend to make your post less effective, not more effective. I know it fits the liberal narrative to pretend all Trump supporters are naïve, uneducated trailer trash who have been duped by Trump because liberals cannot get their collective head around the fact that everyone does not think like they do. Having a different paradigm does not mean they are stupid. I do not subscribe to globalism. Not any more. The Soviet Union grew out of Russia even while we practiced globalism and tried to lead the world. Whatever happens with Russia and China is going to happen regardless of what the US does or does not do. I am tired of US tax payer's dollars being spent trying to save the world. I understand how the world works and how the US had used our prosperity to gain influence around the world but I think that era needs to end. We need to fundamentally CHANGE. I think this is part and parcel to why Trump was elected. |
| 2018-01-03 2:27 PM in reply to: MuscleMomma |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Pakistan Originally posted by MuscleMomma You are now bringing in the time period of the Marshall Plan which brought us decades of peace. You clearly are not interested in my answer which you must not have read. Yes, giving money to other countries through the State Department is the way we have maintained our influence, our dominance, on the world stage. It is a tool of diplomacy giving us another tool other than war. What it has all accomplished is something neither one of us is qualified to answer, as with most arguments from trump supporters who don't think the world is any more complicated than a schoolyard fight. In a globalized world, our turning out back on our role as leader of the free world will not bring jobs back, or make the world any safer. It will lead to our increasing irrelevance and the rise of either China or Russia. I world I don't look forward to. You might be surprised at how much diplomacy is like a schoolyard fight. He who has the biggest stick will always win in the world of diplomacy. We've had the biggest stick, but we've been afraid to use it so we've been trying to pay off the school yard bullies for decades. Now everyone is surprised that the bullies are emboldened and wanting more and more. Might be time to punch them in the mouth and set them back a notch or two. I'll also echo that your condescension kind of nullifies any argument you're trying to put forth. If you have to mock and belittle people in order to make your point then your point cannot stand on it's own merits. If your point cannot stand on it's own merits then you may want to rethink what it is you believe in. |
| 2018-01-03 5:34 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Pakistan Originally posted by tuwood ] I'll also echo that your condescension kind of nullifies any argument you're trying to put forth. If you have to mock and belittle people in order to make your point then your point cannot stand on it's own merits. If your point cannot stand on it's own merits then you may want to rethink what it is you believe in. For the record, that stuff just rolls off of me and most of it can be pretty funny, so fire away. Edited by Left Brain 2018-01-03 5:37 PM |
| 2018-01-03 5:53 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Pakistan Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by tuwood ] I'll also echo that your condescension kind of nullifies any argument you're trying to put forth. If you have to mock and belittle people in order to make your point then your point cannot stand on it's own merits. If your point cannot stand on it's own merits then you may want to rethink what it is you believe in. For the record, that stuff just rolls off of me and most of it can be pretty funny, so fire away. Oh it doesn’t bother me in the least....I find it amusing....but I think it diminishes one’s argument. It’s kinda like calling people names or personal attacks. OK, got it....you are out of rational thought. It reminds me of the old lawyer saying. “When the facts are against you, pound the law. When the law is against you, pound the facts. When both the law and the facts are against you, pound the table.” |
| 2018-01-03 7:18 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
Expert 2373 Floriduh | Subject: RE: Pakistan Originally posted by Rogillio The fact that Obama gave Iran $1.7 billion dollars just makes me ill You do realize that was Iranian money that was frozen in US accounts during the hostage crisis in the late 70's. The accounts were unfrozen as a result of the JCPOA. It was their money all along, we just gave them their money back. |
| 2018-01-03 7:44 PM in reply to: Oysterboy |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Pakistan Originally posted by Oysterboy Originally posted by Rogillio The fact that Obama gave Iran $1.7 billion dollars just makes me ill You do realize that was Iranian money that was frozen in US accounts during the hostage crisis in the late 70's. The accounts were unfrozen as a result of the JCPOA. It was their money all along, we just gave them their money back. yeah, and the first installment of the $1.7B was $400M in untraceable cash in several different countries currency delivered in the dead of night on pallets as a payment for the release of 5 American prisoners. But other than that it was totally just us giving them money that was owed to them. /eyeroll |
| 2018-01-03 7:47 PM in reply to: Oysterboy |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Pakistan Oh, and on a total side note. I was stationed on the USS Chandler (DDG-996) that was one of the 4 Kidd class destroyers that were built for the Iranian Navy. However, after the bad guys took over the US kept the ships and put them in service for the US Navy. We had a large room that was originally a goat locker (literally) to keep live animals for religious sacrifice. We turned it into a weight room. The air conditioners were also crazy good due to them being designed to operate full time in the gulf heat. We were always on high alert for the Iranians attacking us due to it being "their" ship. |
| 2018-01-03 8:17 PM in reply to: Oysterboy |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Pakistan Originally posted by Oysterboy Originally posted by Rogillio The fact that Obama gave Iran $1.7 billion dollars just makes me ill You do realize that was Iranian money that was frozen in US accounts during the hostage crisis in the late 70's. The accounts were unfrozen as a result of the JCPOA. It was their money all along, we just gave them their money back. And absolved then of the hostage taking?! |
| 2018-01-03 9:20 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Pakistan Originally posted by Rogillio Originally posted by Oysterboy And absolved then of the hostage taking?! Originally posted by Rogillio The fact that Obama gave Iran $1.7 billion dollars just makes me ill You do realize that was Iranian money that was frozen in US accounts during the hostage crisis in the late 70's. The accounts were unfrozen as a result of the JCPOA. It was their money all along, we just gave them their money back. I think Iran is governed by women. |
| 2018-01-04 7:40 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Pakistan Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by Rogillio Originally posted by Oysterboy And absolved then of the hostage taking?! Originally posted by Rogillio The fact that Obama gave Iran $1.7 billion dollars just makes me ill You do realize that was Iranian money that was frozen in US accounts during the hostage crisis in the late 70's. The accounts were unfrozen as a result of the JCPOA. It was their money all along, we just gave them their money back. I think Iran is governed by women. everywhere is governed by women, including your house LB
I don't think you can make a deal with someone that eases sanctions without unfreezing their assets Rogillio. |
| 2018-01-04 7:50 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Pakistan Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by Rogillio Originally posted by Oysterboy And absolved then of the hostage taking?! Originally posted by Rogillio The fact that Obama gave Iran $1.7 billion dollars just makes me ill You do realize that was Iranian money that was frozen in US accounts during the hostage crisis in the late 70's. The accounts were unfrozen as a result of the JCPOA. It was their money all along, we just gave them their money back. I think Iran is governed by women. everywhere is governed by women, including your house LB
I don't think you can make a deal with someone that eases sanctions without unfreezing their assets Rogillio. Dude.....I am king of my own castle. /runsandhides |
| 2018-01-04 8:17 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Pakistan Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by Rogillio Originally posted by Oysterboy And absolved then of the hostage taking?! Originally posted by Rogillio The fact that Obama gave Iran $1.7 billion dollars just makes me ill You do realize that was Iranian money that was frozen in US accounts during the hostage crisis in the late 70's. The accounts were unfrozen as a result of the JCPOA. It was their money all along, we just gave them their money back. I think Iran is governed by women. everywhere is governed by women, including your house LB
I don't think you can make a deal with someone that eases sanctions without unfreezing their assets Rogillio. Dude.....I am king of my own castle. /runsandhides On the first night of our honeymoon we were in a hotel room and my new bride was in the bathroom. When she came out I help up my pants and told her to put them on. She said, "Don't be ridiculous, I can't wear them." I said, "That's right! And don't you ever forget that. I wear the pants in this family!" Later, as I came out of the bathroom she held up her panties and said, "Honey, put this on." I said, "I can't get into those!" She said, "That's right and you ain't gonna till you change your attitude!" For the record, this never happed. |
| 2018-01-04 9:46 AM in reply to: tuwood |
Pro 6838 Tejas | Subject: RE: Pakistan Originally posted by tuwood Oh, and on a total side note. I was stationed on the USS Chandler (DDG-996) that was one of the 4 Kidd class destroyers that were built for the Iranian Navy. However, after the bad guys took over the US kept the ships and put them in service for the US Navy. We had a large room that was originally a goat locker (literally) to keep live animals for religious sacrifice. We turned it into a weight room. The air conditioners were also crazy good due to them being designed to operate full time in the gulf heat. We were always on high alert for the Iranians attacking us due to it being "their" ship. <<< Throws the BS flag!!! |
| 2018-01-04 9:50 AM in reply to: mdg2003 |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Pakistan Originally posted by mdg2003 Originally posted by tuwood <<< Throws the BS flag!!! Oh, and on a total side note. I was stationed on the USS Chandler (DDG-996) that was one of the 4 Kidd class destroyers that were built for the Iranian Navy. However, after the bad guys took over the US kept the ships and put them in service for the US Navy. We had a large room that was originally a goat locker (literally) to keep live animals for religious sacrifice. We turned it into a weight room. The air conditioners were also crazy good due to them being designed to operate full time in the gulf heat. We were always on high alert for the Iranians attacking us due to it being "their" ship. lol, nope. Total truth. USS Chandler (DDG-996) was the final ship in the Kidd class of guided-missile destroyers operated by the U.S. Navy. Derived from the Spruance class, these vessels were designed for air defense in hot weather. She was named after Rear Admiral Theodore E. Chandler. Originally named Andushirvan, the ship was originally ordered by the Shah of Iran, but was undelivered when the 1979 Iranian Revolution occurred. Subsequent to this, the U.S. Navy elected to commission her for service in the Persian Gulf and Mediterranean Sea, as she was equipped with heavy-duty air conditioning and was also well suited to filtering sand and the results from NBC warfare. She was commissioned in 1982.
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| 2018-01-04 10:20 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 6838 Tejas | Subject: RE: Pakistan Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by mdg2003 Originally posted by tuwood <<< Throws the BS flag!!! Oh, and on a total side note. I was stationed on the USS Chandler (DDG-996) that was one of the 4 Kidd class destroyers that were built for the Iranian Navy. However, after the bad guys took over the US kept the ships and put them in service for the US Navy. We had a large room that was originally a goat locker (literally) to keep live animals for religious sacrifice. We turned it into a weight room. The air conditioners were also crazy good due to them being designed to operate full time in the gulf heat. We were always on high alert for the Iranians attacking us due to it being "their" ship. lol, nope. Total truth. USS Chandler (DDG-996) was the final ship in the Kidd class of guided-missile destroyers operated by the U.S. Navy. Derived from the Spruance class, these vessels were designed for air defense in hot weather. She was named after Rear Admiral Theodore E. Chandler. Originally named Andushirvan, the ship was originally ordered by the Shah of Iran, but was undelivered when the 1979 Iranian Revolution occurred. Subsequent to this, the U.S. Navy elected to commission her for service in the Persian Gulf and Mediterranean Sea, as she was equipped with heavy-duty air conditioning and was also well suited to filtering sand and the results from NBC warfare. She was commissioned in 1982.
Threw the flag on the goat locker... According to wiki, we sold it to the Chinese and they are using it in the Chinese navy. Edited by mdg2003 2018-01-04 10:23 AM |
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