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2013-11-06 7:49 AM

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Subject: Barry P Running Plan
Not to rehash an old subject but an earlier thread got me thinking about running and how to run faster. 1st things 1st though. I do need to clarify that I am in no way shape or form a coach and I must also say my running sucks! Also, I am posting this for possibly a little motivation. I haven't trained consistently for over a year.

Ok. So having said that, I want to get my run in shape this winter so I am going to follow the BarryP plan that he posted on the Slowtwitch forums. During this time my plan is to just focus on my run and not worry about my bike. I will probably hit the pool a few times a week just because I am there anyway during my kids swim practice. I have started and stopped the plan once last year. I started it, rolled my ankle and basically just said screw it. Now here I am a year later and have lost all my run fitness.

For those of you who aren't familiar with the BarryP plan here is a link to the post over on the Slowtwitch forums:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1612485;search_string=r...

I wont rehash what he has to say in the post because you can read all about it there. If anyone else wants to do the plan I have created a simple spreadsheet to help calculate how long you should be running for your short, medium and long runs. The sheet is based on the 10% rule. The time or mileage you run weekly increases by 10%. I created the plan out to 15 weeks and it cuts back the mileage or time after every 3rd week.

I would also caution (again I am not a coach) that if you are just starting off with a running plan such as this and you do not know how many miles or minutes per week to start off with, this may not be the best time to start this. You may want a couch to 5 k plan 1st to get a little run volume under your belt. I would also advise to be patient while following this. Even though you completed your week 2 runs you still may not be ready to progress to week 3. I think only you will know when you are ready for the 10% increase from week to week. All you need to do is enter your starting mileage or time in the greenbox on the sheet. The rest of the sheet is locked for editing so the formulas don't get screwed up. Feel free to unlock it and edit or improve it anyway you see fit.

This also does not include any speed work. For now I am not worrying about speed work. I would like to quote one Slowtwitch poster's signature: "Speed work is icing on the cake. You don't have cake yet!" I think just by running consistently for a change will get me to where I want to be. Where that is, I don't know. I just know I don't want running to feel like a hassle or struggle every time I do it. My plan is also to just get out there and do it. I am not going to worry about pace. I am just going to get the miles in so that I am comfortable in doing so and not dread doing the next workout.

So BT I ask: WHO IS WITH ME??? My plan is start off with a weekly mileage of 15 miles. Probably will do most of this on the dreadmill with my long runs on the weekends outside.








Edited by orphious 2013-11-06 7:54 AM




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2013-11-06 7:53 AM
in reply to: orphious

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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan

Very nice and you know I can use all the help I can get. I wonder if this might actually be a good motivator for the challenge forum? I am already in a challenge for November and probably just need to work on running consistently without any increases for now but if all goes well for this month I would jump on this in December!

2013-11-06 7:55 AM
in reply to: orphious

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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan

Well, I'm not with you but I like your plan!  Except for the part about the dreadmill.....  I hate the dreadmill.

2013-11-06 7:57 AM
in reply to: trigal38

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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan
It sure could be. They usually do a 100 runs in 100 days challenge over on Slowtwitch. I never join because I have never been in shape enough to meet their rule that 1 run must be at least 30 minutes in length. I could do it but wouldn't even come close to the 100 runs.
2013-11-06 8:20 AM
in reply to: orphious

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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan

I've been following this plan for the last couple of months, and got myself up to 125 miles last month.  I ran into a calf issue that made me lessen my running for a week while I got it sorted out, but I sill managed my biggest month ever.  I'm a fan of the plan so far, but did reduce my bike/swim while adapting to 6x running per week.

2013-11-06 8:38 AM
in reply to: orphious

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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan
Originally posted by orphious

I think just by running consistently for a change will get me to where I want to be. Where that is, I don't know. I just know I don't want running to feel like a hassle or struggle every time I do it. My plan is also to just get out there and do it. I am not going to worry about pace. I am just going to get the miles in so that I am comfortable in doing so and not dread doing the next workout.



This makes a lot of sense.

Having a lot of easy miles in your week makes running less stressful. Encorages the body to adapt for run specific fitness and build good form and endurance wiht less risk of injury.

Lots of coaches list speed work being less than 10% of total weekly miles. But who says you have to do any painful drill or hill repeats. Why not just enjoy running. The consitency will reap great results.


2013-11-06 8:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan
As someone who employed this plan successfully, I want to throw a word of caution\advice your way, or anyone's way should they undertake this, and that's to have a deep appreciation for walking. Not loping along, but walking. Not only is there no shame in it, it's quite the opposite. If you can't run for a half hour, walk for a half hour. The learning process your body goes through is just as valuable when walking as running. For a new\novice runner, there is SO much internal wiring you have to hook up, you really have no idea until you come out the other side. Walking helps accomplish that just as effectively as a slow jog. Also, PLEASE understand how slow "slow" is. If you think you can run slower, you're not running slow enough. You should be intimately familiar with the threshold that exists between your fastest walk and your slowest run pace, and the mechanics that separate them.

What's really really really important is to do this ALL THE TIME. At least 5 days a week, ideally 6, bonus if you can do 7. Consistency is the key. It becomes a very strong mental exercise to find and dedicate the time, and be patient enough not to run fast. It will take longer that you think, and there's no point to you 'testing' whether you're faster, as it will very likely lead to pointless injury.

the reality is
1) if you were a runner earlier in your life, you probably don't need this. You can just build up slowly, but the internal wiring was already completed.
2) if you weren't a runner, your body is about to go to the woodshed. You're rebuilding a crappy jalopy into a race car. You can't race it yet. It will take time to build it, patience is rewarded. If you don't fasten every bolt securely, replace every single slow part with faster part, and learn tons in the process, you're not going to end up with a race car, you'll get something that can occasionally go fast, but breaks alot and spends alot of time in the shop. Build it right the first time and get yourself right for good!

Trust the process. I spent about 6 months from September to February last year sticking to it like glue. I went in a craptastic runner who could barely eke out an 8:30\mm 10K in great agony with no prayer of going longer to a 7:20\mm 10K with a smile who regularly rips out a half mary on the weekend, still getting faster every week. I wish everyone could feel like that, I really do, so I hope you do too! Good luck!

I'm not one to write less...here's my post on the same topic from a while ago -> http://beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid...

Edited by fisherman76 2013-11-06 9:08 AM
2013-11-06 9:17 AM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan

where's the like button fisherman??

I actually got a personalized plan from Barry himself--he's a great dude and will respond to you--a couple of years ago.

I would love to start actually doing this again, if I have permission from my doc. Fighting a back injury.

2013-11-06 9:43 AM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan
OMG Fisherman.. great post and worth repeating in this thread. Aside from video taping my gait, you are describing me here!!! Well before starting this program...

My weakness has always been the run. Recently however, I've started to see some dramatic improvement, even getting a 2nd place AG finish this weekend, so in the interest of giving back from all the free advice I've distilled from here, I thought I'd share what the difference had been of late.

1) Run every day. This may seems obvious, but it's probably the hardest thing to do. From my experience, my body simply wasn't ready to do this at first. I got some nagging groin and hip flexor pains for a while as I built up my base. So I needed a lot of

2) Rest. If this seems diametrically opposed to #1, it is. I think this oxymoron is what drives a lot of beginning runners to confusion, and prevents them from figuring out how to both run every day and rest often in harmony. So I'll present:

3) Discover the zen of running. You can't run when you're in pain (although suck it up, a little pain that a single ibuprofen can take care is nothing, so shh) and the gains are not going to come overnight. So bam, here's my "secret" - I can rest and run and the same time. I don't care for the term "recovery run", because it's an oxymoron. I'm talking about 'running' at a pace and movement level where I could read a book out loud. If the horizon is bobbing up and down, it's wrong, that's too much muscle impact, so find a gait that allows the miles to coast by. I think of it being closer to a 'power walking' feeling than 'running', but it's not walking. Personally, I had someone film me doing a few different gaits on a treadmill so I could figure out how to minimize my impact and keep my heart rate down, worked well for me. These runs can be 3 miles, 8 miles, 14 miles, doesn't really matter, but they are always relaxing, and I'm not breathing any differently than normal, only my heart is working harder. Once I got #1 and #2 in balance, things started to really change. I found getting to this point took me about 6 weeks, your mileage may vary.

4) Rhythm. This could just as easily be called "distance", but in running often and happily, I began to find ditching the headphones and music was necessary. Once I started running more than 25 miles a week I found the simple rhythm of my feet and my breathing became hypnotic, and music was distracting. The rhythm became my dashboard. I discovered my gearing system - how it sounds and feels in each of the heart rate zones. I learned how to upshift and downshift. Hard to enumerate how many 'secrets' gave themselves up as I unlocked these rhythms.

5) Hills. Oh my oh my. I sprint up them and learn my heart. I walk up them and teach my muscles. I let myself fly down them and learn my stride length. Shuffle up them and learn the granular limits of my threshold levels. I spend at least a third of my time on hills.

6) Finding your redline, and moving it. You've seen it all over BT - "Run often, sometimes hard, mostly easy". Yep. It doesn't seem like it should make any sense, but spending a lot of time running mostly at my easiest pace for lots and lots of miles is how I got faster at running lots and lots of miles at a much faster pace. I almost NEVER run at my race pace during training. But it's there, and it's getting faster and faster with every week I run every day. It was a leap of faith, really, but what did I have to lose? Go out and run your best 5 or 10k right now and record your time. Then spend 6 weeks never getting remotely close to that pace, but running an hour every day. At the end of 6 weeks, do another trial. It's truly unbelievable.

7) Weight counts. I can't ignore the fact that I lost roughly 10 pounds before I started making these changes, so comparing my previous results with my recent ones would be omitting a major part of the ballgame. It's just plain harder to run swiftly when you weight more than your frame can support.

There's nothing revelatory in here, but on the chance this *particular* combination of regurgitated advice helps even one person on their journey, it's worth it. I've dropped over 2 minutes off my mile pace in the last year (no applause please, that's only a testimonial to how truly awful a runner I WAS, not one to me getting better!) following this set of advice, and that's been a lot of fun for me, so I hope it helps you.
2013-11-06 9:50 AM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan
Question for you. Would you recommend starting this plan by using Time rather than miles? For example, starting a short run and running for 30 minutes as opposed to doing a short run at slower pace and running for 3 miles and then done. Obviously the 3 mile run is going to take longer than 30 minutes for me running at the slower paces.
2013-11-06 11:14 AM
in reply to: orphious

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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan
Originally posted by orphious

Question for you. Would you recommend starting this plan by using Time rather than miles? For example, starting a short run and running for 30 minutes as opposed to doing a short run at slower pace and running for 3 miles and then done. Obviously the 3 mile run is going to take longer than 30 minutes for me running at the slower paces.

I don't have any experience treating it as time vs distance, although BarryP says it doesn't matter, since technically the distances to time relationship holds steady either way, right? Whether you run 3 10 minute miles or you run your proper pace for 30 minutes and your pace is 10mms, what's the difference. I think there IS a minimum however, that is to say if it's not at LEAST 30 minutes, I don't know that it's very effective. You are trying to teach your body to DO something for a long period of time - endurance training. If you do something for a short period of time every day, you're only teaching your body how to recover from that activity quickly, not recover DURING that activity. Big distinction. If miles is a hurdle, stick to time for now - commit to spending at least a half hour a day on it and work from there.


2013-11-06 11:28 AM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan
Yea, I was thinking of going the time route for now since I don't have any races planned in my near future. I tried to word my question such that since I know I want to be doing at least a half hour each day, I can go out and run for 30 minutes and it will be under 3 miles at my pace. If go run 3 miles it will most definitely take me past the 1/2 hour.
2013-11-06 5:37 PM
in reply to: orphious


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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan
Great discussion, I'm in the process of building my endurance. Thanks for all ya'lls input!
2013-11-06 8:32 PM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan
I went in a craptastic runner who could barely eke out an 8:30\mm 10K in great agony ...


Here's a bit of perspective... A 10K averaging 8:30/min is nothing but a dream for most beginning runners, not a craptastic performance.
2013-11-07 7:46 AM
in reply to: VGT

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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan
Originally posted by VGT
Here's a bit of perspective... A 10K averaging 8:30/min is nothing but a dream for most beginning runners, not a craptastic performance.


Don't compare yourself to me, or anyone else. That's not the point. I was giving *my* paces as an illustration of what the plan accomplished for me. The improvement is the point. Where I started is not the point. Trust me, when I finished that craptastic performance, I was crap. I ran like crap. Bad form, carrying too much extra weight, ached like crazy for days, and vowed to fix my problems so it would never happen again. Your crap is not my crap, but when we call ourselves crap, we're the same. I give MY story as illustration, not as a benchmark.

When I started running, I couldn't finish a mile at any pace. After about 3 months, I could finish a 5K, but resembled a bull at the end of a bullfight more than anything remotely humanly athletic. And yes, I DREAMED about running an 8:30 pace, in fact that's almost exactly what I told a 'friend'- "If I could run an 8:30 pace for a 5K, I'd be happy". I kept working at it and eventually I could. About a year later, I could RUN a 5K pretty well, and I struggled after about the 4 mile point. That's about when I started doing the BarryP plan. Eventually that struggle point moved up to about the 9 mile point, and then a lot longer than that. That 'friend' at the time had commented something like '8:30? that's my recovery pace!'. I wasn't pissed at him for saying it (he was a dBag for different reasons, but that's another story), but I WAS jealous. These days, 8:30 is my recovery pace, but it shouldn't you off, if it's even relevant to you.

Running takes TIME. Athletic improvement takes time. Lots of time. More time than any beginner can imagine. You might be gifted and granted a head start in a particular sport, but everyone has the ability to improve, and everyone needs to invest the time to do it. This isn't a sport that rewards impatience, it's the opposite. This sport rewards work and perseverance. If you don't love the journey, you'll never get to the destination. There are a lot of 'quick' gains you can make from the absolute beginner level, as you learn to swim, bike, and run with any ability. Your second tri will almost certainly be faster than your first. That said, if you're a lousy runner, swimmer or rider (or any combination) call the suit and work on it. It will take loads of training of a long period of time to get better. Along the way your benchmark for what's good will keep sliding forward, as you GET better and better. Your journey will not match up to anyone else's - you'll have your own setbacks, you'll age slower or faster than others, your personal and professional life will have its demands on your time, etc. If you have the patience, the plan WORKS. If you don't have the patience, you'll be in no different shoes than I or anyone else is was before they commit to becoming a better runner - dreaming about it.
2013-11-07 8:54 AM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan
x1000 Yet another great post! I swear they should put a like button on here or give points to posts like these.

FYI.. hit the treadmill for the 2nd time this week. Set at a slow pace, turned on some music and ran for 1/2 hour. Didn't concern myself with how far I went. No stiffness or soreness today like usual and will hit it again for another 1/2 hour session tonight. I don't think I am quite ready for the 1,2,3 BarryP plan just yet. I haven't run in over a year and I think if I try and run at least 30 mins a day at a slow pace I will get there eventually.


2013-11-07 11:48 AM
in reply to: orphious


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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan
Hey Orphious,

Great thread. I'm new to all of this and decided to give it a shot during the off season. My two goals are to improve, to the extent possible, my swimming and running.

Two quick questions:

1) I see both you and fisherman seem to agree that half an hour of running (for the short run) is the shortest duration allowable to realize any sort of improvements.

However, after reading Barry P's original post, he states, "A final IMPORTANT note about 6 day training – do not increase your mileage when initially adopting this plan. In other words, if you are running 15 miles a week on 3 days of running, then you should begin with 15 miles a week on 6 days of running. The workouts will seem ridiculously short at first. Just be patient. It won’t be long until it feels natural."

I just finished my first triathlon (olympic distance). The training prgram I did called for two days of running a week at about 40 min each (I probably covered about 4-5 miles with these) along with a short (20 minute run - 2 miles usually) after a long-ish bike ride. I essentially ran about 9-11 miles a week. So, in keeping with Barry P's warning, in order to expand to 6 workouts (1:2:3 I would need to do 3 short runs of a mile, 2 medium runs of 2 miles, and one long run of 3 miles (equaling a total of 10 miles for the week).

I started this week and my short runs only take about 10 minutes. I did feel like this was VERY light, but then I reminded myself that Barry P warned me that it would seem ridiculously short.

So considering fisherman's advice, and your phase I thus far, do you think I should be upping the mileage?

2) I'm hoping to work on my swim in the off season (first race is late June next year so I would start a formal training regimen in March). Do you see any harm in doing 3 swim workouts a week to coincide with my short runs? Where do you fit in a bike ride (was hoping to at least do one long bike ride a week just to keep my losses to a minimum)?

Thanks again,

Paul
2013-11-07 12:11 PM
in reply to: PaulZ323

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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan
No. I wouldn't recommend this at all. Keep to the plan. You will get to the 30 minute mark soon enough. The only reason I am starting at 30 mins is I do have a bit of run training in my past. When I rolled my ankle as I indicated in my initial post it was at mile 9 of running my 1st marathon about a year ago. I think just from training for that and now with starting back up that starting at 30 minutes will be good for me. I am also not exactly going to follow BarryP just yet. I am going to try and run 30 minutes a day 6 days a week for awhile and then start adding some miles in. Of course since this is my 1st week back, and if this doesn't feel right for me at any point I will dial it back a notch.

Then again, I could be over doing it having taken almost over a year off and maybe should stick to BarryP and work way back up to 30 minute runs...

I am no expert on this at all and am kind of playing it by how I feel. I just know that if I want to be a better runner, I have to get some consistency.

As for swimming, I see no issue with you swimming 3 times a week. In fact I am doing most of my runs on the treadmill at the Y while my kids are at swim team practice. I have been hitting the pool afterwards and swimming after running.

As for biking, right now it is non existent for me. I don't have the time to fit it in. I suppose I could if I wanted to get up at 5 and do some trainer work. Its to dark to ride outside then. But since I am concentrating on my run, I haven't done any bike workouts. If I did they would have to be very light in nature so I didn't shred my legs for my running workouts.

Hope this helps ya. Again, I'm no expert or coach and don't want to give out some wrong advice that would get someone hurt...
2013-11-07 12:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan
I'm far from a gifted runner and several years ago my goal was to break a 30 min 5k. I have used the BarryP plan and am now trying to break 22 min 5k. The plan does work.

The main keys to the plan for me is:

1. Run everyday (at about the same time) Allow for adequate recovery (no 2 a days) I schedule 7 days a week but know that life will get in the way so I will end up with missing a run.

2. DO NOT SKIP the long run. If it isn't going to happen on the scheduled day, I get it in the day before or the day after the scheduled day.

3. There is no such thing as starting too short. Even if the short run is 2 mile @2,4,6 you will still end up running 22 miles in the first week. It may seem to easy but that's the point. That is still a lot more than if you weekly mileage is 10-15.

4. Ride 2nd. Your cycling will suffer when you focus on the run but your aerobic base won't. On short days or the day after your long runs you can spin out your legs on the bike, but if run is your focus, it needs to be your focus.

5. Pass on any 5k, fun runs or anything else while you work on your mileage. Resting the day before a race or ending up sore and missing some runs after (especially the long run) will set you back on the plan. Stay diligent and consistent for 3-6 months and the do a race. You will be amazed at the results.

I am just getting ready to restart the plan during the off season. Good luck

Edited by pschriver 2013-11-07 12:28 PM
2013-11-07 12:31 PM
in reply to: orphious


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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan
Gotcha, makes sense; definitely helps, thank you.

I actually worked it out and it seems increasing by 10% each week (if I'm able to increase each week) will put me at around 30 miles per week at the end of 3 months (3mi:6mi:9mi) and 50 miles per week at the end of 5 months (5mi:10mi:15mi). That seems ludicrous to me now (considering I've never run more than the 10k in my first tri), but I guess I'll just take it slow and hope for the best.

Luckily I have the schedule flexibility to throw a bike ride in there though, as you suggested, I'll probably keep it nice and easy since running and swimming are my main objectives right now. Kudos for you making concerted efforts to improve while working around a pretty tight schedule. Makes me all the more hopeful that I'll be able to continue the sport when I eventually start a family.

Paul


2013-11-07 12:36 PM
in reply to: PaulZ323

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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan

Originally posted by PaulZ323I actually worked it out and it seems increasing by 10% each week (if I'm able to increase each week) will put me at around 30 miles per week at the end of 3 months (3mi:6mi:9mi) and 50 miles per week at the end of 5 months (5mi:10mi:15mi).

Have not read the rest of the thread (so sorry if this is mentioned), but that scehdule would be VERY aggressive.  10% increase should be a LIMIT, not a goal.  You should expect to reach a point where you may want to go several weeks with no increase at all while your body adapts.



2013-11-07 12:50 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay


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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan
Good point; I will definitely take that advice. It seemed aggressive when I first did the math.

Though I guess I am still confused as to when you know its appropriate to up the mileage. I know Barry P said that only I would know after listening to my body but, even then, it seems a bit vague. If there really no such thing as being too conservative (i.e. leaving potential on the table)?
2013-11-07 1:27 PM
in reply to: PaulZ323

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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan

Originally posted by PaulZ323 Good point; I will definitely take that advice. It seemed aggressive when I first did the math. Though I guess I am still confused as to when you know its appropriate to up the mileage. I know Barry P said that only I would know after listening to my body but, even then, it seems a bit vague. If there really no such thing as being too conservative (i.e. leaving potential on the table)?

Eventually, you'll get a decent sense of how to listen to your body better.  But there really is no sure way to know (except in the cases where you do too much and find out becasue you get injured)--which is why it is vague.  Certainly, you can be 'too conservative'.  But there's no way to know for sure where that line sits.  With running, you are usually better off staying 'reasonably' conservative (e.g., back off when you feel some 'nagging' discomfort, keep increases in training load modest, etc.) because staying uninjured allows for more work to be done over time.  But most people will want to test their limits at some stage (for a specific race, maybe, or just to see if they are leving potential on the table).  The 10% rule helps to set a decent rule-of-thumb as a limit.  But, especially as the overall workload climbs, 10% may be much too high.  If an 'easy' run starts to feel 'hard', that's probably a sign that you need to back off or plateau for a bit before building again. 

2013-11-07 1:35 PM
in reply to: PaulZ323

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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan
You will know. Last year when I 1st started BarryP I wasn't patient in the beginning and decided a 1 mile run was way to short. The next week instead of 10% I immediately went from a 10 mile starting week to a 20 mile week. According to the plan that's 2,4,6. Couldn't finish the 4 mile medium run. Lesson learned.

I think instead of doing the 1/2 hour runs I will go back to Barry.. Starting point 150 minute week. I am going to go by time rather than distance.... I have done two 30 minute runs for the week... I will probably do another 30 minute run as I know I am camping this weekend and wont be running. So then starting Monday... Week 1 of BarryP!

15,30,45 - in minutes Patience is the key. After the week 1 I will have to see how I feel to see if stepping up to a little more time is in order. It may just be as suggested... repeat week 1 till ready.

2013-11-07 2:11 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay


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Subject: RE: Barry P Running Plan
Thanks for the explanation. Excited to see where this goes and will keep everyone updated!
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