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Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once?
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 2014-09-29 12:13 PM |
Veteran  263  |  Subject: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once?Short version: How can I improve at using proper technique with both legs at the same time? Long version: I am working to improve my bike technique, really focusing on exerting force for a larger proportion of the pedal cycle (e.g., "wiping my shoes on the floor" at the bottom of the cycle). So far I can do this pretty well with a single leg. I focus on different aspects of the cycle, and then integrate this into a single relatively fluid motion where I am exerting pressure the entire cycle. But I can only focus on one leg at a time. When I try to focus this way on both legs, I just end up in a jumble of confusion trying to attend to two things at once. Note I can focus on a *single* phase of the cycle with both legs (e.g., the bottom phase), but not all the phases, because they overlap in time so my attentional resources stretch and snap asunder. So my question is, how do people get good at using proper technique with both legs at the same time? Do you just focus, in drills, on one or the other leg, and then as you improve it all becomes habitual so you don't need to think about "wiping the floor" on the bottom of the stroke, etc? Or is there a trick of the trade? Note this is based on my recent purchase of a Sufferlandia video that focuses on technique: http://www.thesufferfest.com/training-video/elements-style/ I recommend it, especially as an offseason workout video. It's really fun (I am not getting paid by them  ).  |
| 2014-09-29 12:21 PM in reply to: neuronet |
Champion 9407   Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? First, the wiping mud off your shoe is a nice visual but analysis of actual pedal forces shows that pushing on the downstroke and unweighting on the upstroke is what you want. You can work on your coordination by spinning at higher RPMs - say 110-120rpm to start and build your comfort riding at higher cadences (you could also ride fixed). Shane |
| 2014-09-29 1:28 PM in reply to: neuronet |
| 3 | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? What works best for me is one leg drills followed by higher rpm spinning. Work with one leg for 30 sec, spin with both for 1 min @ 90-110 RPM, repeat. Remember the point of one leg drills are to activate the muscle groups of the dead part of the stroke, not necessary to build strength. |
| 2014-09-29 2:19 PM in reply to: 0 |
Veteran 263 | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? Originally posted by gsmacleod First, the wiping mud off your shoe is a nice visual but analysis of actual pedal forces shows that pushing on the downstroke and unweighting on the upstroke is what you want. You can work on your coordination by spinning at higher RPMs - say 110-120rpm to start and build your comfort riding at higher cadences (you could also ride fixed). Shane What is 'unweighting' exactly? Removing downward force? So it isn't an active uplift (e.g., using hip flexors) but simply letting up on the dowward force so that momentum naturally brings pedal back up to 10 o clock or so? I am curious about the study showing analysis of pedal forces. I am ok with technical docs, primary sources from the scientific literature (indeed, I prefer that). Intuitively, the "wiping the mud off my shoes" seems to help a *lot* (typically between 4pm and 8pm in the stroke). Here's how I break it down (top is 12 o'clock, going clockwise): 10 o clock engage gluts and start pushing forward/down. this goes to around 4 o clock 4 o clock: continue pushing, but engage hamstrings to "wipe foot on floor" 8o clock or so : "unweight"--let momentum bring me back to 10 o clock Previously I have tried using my hip flexors to pull up, starting around 8pm, instead of just passively unweighting. For some reason I stopped that: I think someone warned me against doing that, but in retrospect I don't know why I just listened to them uncritically! Perhaps I am missing on a key source of power. Edited by neuronet 2014-09-29 2:25 PM |
| 2014-09-29 2:23 PM in reply to: My1stTriRace_1 |
Veteran 263 | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? Originally posted by My1stTriRace_1 What works best for me is one leg drills followed by higher rpm spinning. Work with one leg for 30 sec, spin with both for 1 min @ 90-110 RPM, repeat. Remember the point of one leg drills are to activate the muscle groups of the dead part of the stroke, not necessary to build strength. That sounds good. I need to do more one-legged drills. Maybe when it becomes second-nature I won't have to think about it as much when using both legs together? |
| 2014-09-29 2:32 PM in reply to: neuronet |
| Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? The forces of the pedal stroke looks something like this...
Notice none of the arrows point upwards. Basically you're just trying to get your foot out of the way while the other foot applies power on the downward side of the stroke. |
| 2014-09-29 2:39 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? Once you can get to 150-170 rpm without bouncing on the seat you are just about there. |
| 2014-09-29 2:46 PM in reply to: 0 |
Veteran 263 | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? Originally posted by Jason N The forces of the pedal stroke looks something like this...
Notice none of the arrows point upwards. Basically you're just trying to get your foot out of the way while the other foot applies power on the downward side of the stroke. That is a gorgeous figure! That said, I have had strokes where I pull up with my hip flexors, so it probably didn't look like that. Is that figure an ideal of what we should aim for, or actual data, and if data measured from whom? If ideal, who decided that? How much have these variables been tweaked, with the results measured, to see how much faster you could go if you deviated from that picture? Just questions, I have no idea what the truth is... Edited by neuronet 2014-09-29 3:03 PM |
| 2014-09-29 3:07 PM in reply to: neuronet |
| Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? It's what a typical pedal stroke looks like. IMHO, you're over thinking things. Assuming you are fit well on your bike (saddle position, crank length, cleat placement, etc), you don't need to worry about the dynamics of the pedal stroke. There is no need for one legged drills...because you will always pedal with two legs. What you do need to do is get better at pedaling with two legs...which simply means riding more. Ride at different power efforts and at different cadences and let your body adjust to that and how it feels. What feels awkward at first may start to feel a lot more comfortable with time. In the end, you'll realize that biking fast has very little to do with your pedal stroke and more to do with simply how hard you can push the pedal down...and for how long you can sustain that power.
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| 2014-09-29 3:12 PM in reply to: neuronet |
| 754 | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? Originally posted by neuronet Originally posted by Jason N The forces of the pedal stroke looks something like this...
Notice none of the arrows point upwards. Basically you're just trying to get your foot out of the way while the other foot applies power on the downward side of the stroke. That is a gorgeous figure! That said, I have had strokes where I pull up with my hip flexors, so it probably didn't look like that. Is that figure an ideal of what we should aim for, or actual data, and if data measured from whom? If ideal, who decided that? How much have these variables been tweaked, with the results measured, to see how much faster you could go if you deviated from that picture? Just questions, I have no idea what the truth is... This seems way to complicated. I have no idea how you would think of all that at 90 or so rpm. Ride lots, your body will figure it out. If you can, ride with someone who is faster than you, then you will have to figure it out. |
| 2014-09-29 3:40 PM in reply to: happyscientist |
Veteran 263 | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? Sounds like the consensus is to not worry so much, and get out there and train. Can't it be both  |
| 2014-09-29 3:47 PM in reply to: neuronet |
| 631 | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? I think this is a solution to a problem that most people don't have. My understanding is that it is to eliminate a dead spot at the bottom of the pedal stroke. I think the dead spot is more likely to happen if you are pushing a big gear. |
| 2014-09-29 4:01 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Master 1970 Somewhere on the Tennessee River | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? Originally posted by Jason N The forces of the pedal stroke looks something like this...
Notice none of the arrows point upwards. Basically you're just trying to get your foot out of the way while the other foot applies power on the downward side of the stroke.
I love vector analysis. Just sayin'.... |
| 2014-09-29 4:11 PM in reply to: neuronet |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? Here is one study: http://www.midweekclub.ca/articles/coyle91.pdf This is a bit older but every article I've seen suggests the same result - faster cyclists are able to push harder on a larger portion of the downstroke. The coordination of pushing harder through as much of the 12-6 part of the stroke while getting that leg out of the way from 6-12 is important. However, IME, this is best practiced pedaling with both legs, either with high cadence cycling, riding rollers, riding in snow/ice or riding fixed. Shane |
| 2014-09-29 4:13 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? Originally posted by Jason N The forces of the pedal stroke looks something like this...
Notice none of the arrows point upwards. Basically you're just trying to get your foot out of the way while the other foot applies power on the downward side of the stroke. IIRC this is the force plate analysis for Lance Armstrong after he claimed to have been working on scraping mud off his shoe and pedaling on circles. Shane |
| 2014-09-29 5:14 PM in reply to: neuronet |
| 107 | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? What's the return policy at your local Bike Shop? Maybe pickup a set of those GARMIN VECTOR Clips, use them for 6 days and return them... |
| 2014-09-29 6:29 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? Originally posted by gsmacleod Here is one study: http://www.midweekclub.ca/articles/coyle91.pdf This is a bit older but every article I've seen suggests the same result - faster cyclists are able to push harder on a larger portion of the downstroke. The coordination of pushing harder through as much of the 12-6 part of the stroke while getting that leg out of the way from 6-12 is important. However, IME, this is best practiced pedaling with both legs, either with high cadence cycling, riding rollers, riding in snow/ice or riding fixed. Shane Exactly this. So the interesting thing in my view is that as your FTP increases and you pedal at a given cadence, your force applied around the pedal stroke continues to evolve...any added muscle mass is negligible in terms of the force needed to "unweight" the pedal on the upstroke...but more downstroke force can be applied. What makes a great pedal stroke is how smoothly the transitions are made between the various muscles involved. 1 legged drills & "scraping mud" IMO can accelerate this learning process, as can high cadence (bouncing is due to too much excess force pushing down at the bottom of the pedal stroke). but in reality as Shane said, and as the figure demonstrates, there is no "pulling up" on the pedal, just unweighting. "studies show" that cyclists with more experience have smoother pedal strokes and transfer more energy from pedaling into moving forward. (No I can't give you a citation right now.) So think about smooth in general, don't be afrid to push down hard when you want to go fast, transition to the next downstroke and just go ride a lot. |
| 2014-09-29 10:43 PM in reply to: 0 |
Veteran 263 | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? This is all great stuff: thanks for the link to the article. This is all news to me, and frankly a bit of a relief as it suggests I really need to worry less about technique than some would suggest. This article seems really good, pretty much contradicts everything I've been thinking.... http://www.topbike.com.au/pdfs/colson-bicyc-austjuly_aug2002.pdf#se... Edited by neuronet 2014-09-29 10:47 PM |
| 2014-09-29 11:56 PM in reply to: #5054979 |
Member 256 Iowa City, Iowa | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? I'm glad you posted this because I was wondering if there was a pull up in the pedal. I ride with cages but when I tried pulling up in my stroke it felt like too much to keep track of hehe glad to see the force map for the stroke (the scientist in me is jumping). I guess to that end, what's the need for clipless pedals and shoes? I do not mean to open a can of worms with that question because I really don't know. |
| 2014-09-30 7:14 AM in reply to: ChemNerd23 |
| 754 | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? Originally posted by ChemNerd23 I'm glad you posted this because I was wondering if there was a pull up in the pedal. I ride with cages but when I tried pulling up in my stroke it felt like too much to keep track of hehe glad to see the force map for the stroke (the scientist in me is jumping). I guess to that end, what's the need for clipless pedals and shoes? I do not mean to open a can of worms with that question because I really don't know. No studies to cite, just personal experience. I don't notice a pull up when I am just riding easily or on flat ground. However, climbing and sprinting are a different matter. When I sprint up a hill with my buddies, I pull up so hard that if feels like my shoes are going to come off. I have actually pulled a cleat out of a pedal while climbing. I have also noticed that if I get on a bike with flat pedals, my feet will slip off at first, so there is definitely a difference in how I pedal compared to when I am clipped in. |
| 2014-09-30 7:20 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Veteran 721 Naptown, IN | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? Originally posted by gsmacleod Here is one study: http://www.midweekclub.ca/articles/coyle91.pdf This is a bit older but every article I've seen suggests the same result - faster cyclists are able to push harder on a larger portion of the downstroke. The coordination of pushing harder through as much of the 12-6 part of the stroke while getting that leg out of the way from 6-12 is important. However, IME, this is best practiced pedaling with both legs, either with high cadence cycling, riding rollers, riding in snow/ice or riding fixed. Shane Agree with this statement 100%. |
| 2014-09-30 8:26 AM in reply to: 0 |
| 631 | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? Originally posted by ChemNerd23 I guess to that end, what's the need for clipless pedals and shoes? Clipless are safer because they are easier to get in and out of when compared to "properly used" toe clips (cages). The issue is people really don't use toe clips correctly. Properly using toe clips requires you to reach down and release the buckle, it only takes a second but that is still longer than clipless. In reality most people who use toe clips leave them loose enough that they can slid there foot in and out. This shows how they are intended to be used. http://www.yellowjersey.org/how2clip.html If you look at track riders they still use toe clips and straps because it is less likely to accidentially become unhooked. edit: The other reason that they are safer than "properly used" toe clips is in the event of the crash they are more likely to release on their own than the toe clips. W/o releasing you leg can get bent into painful positions. My understanding is that the first clipless were based upon ski bindings. Edited by Sidney Porter 2014-09-30 8:44 AM |
| 2014-09-30 12:21 PM in reply to: neuronet |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? Originally posted by neuronet This is all great stuff: thanks for the link to the article. This is all news to me, and frankly a bit of a relief as it suggests I really need to worry less about technique than some would suggest. This article seems really good, pretty much contradicts everything I've been thinking.... http://www.topbike.com.au/pdfs/colson-bicyc-austjuly_aug2002.pdf#se... That's a really great article. Similar technique insights can be made in swimming, that is, the energy put into non propulsive parts of the stroke are often over-activated in less skilled swimmers (recovery arm muscle activation for example). So yes there is technique in cycling...but lots of folks are chasing things that are not important. |
| 2014-09-30 12:35 PM in reply to: ChemNerd23 |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? Originally posted by ChemNerd23 I'm glad you posted this because I was wondering if there was a pull up in the pedal. I ride with cages but when I tried pulling up in my stroke it felt like too much to keep track of hehe glad to see the force map for the stroke (the scientist in me is jumping). I guess to that end, what's the need for clipless pedals and shoes? I do not mean to open a can of worms with that question because I really don't know. For one, try riding at 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, and then 100 rpms, Right there you will quickly understand. |
| 2014-09-30 1:15 PM in reply to: mobey |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Bike technique: focusing on two legs at once? Originally posted by mobey Originally posted by gsmacleod Here is one study: http://www.midweekclub.ca/articles/coyle91.pdf This is a bit older but every article I've seen suggests the same result - faster cyclists are able to push harder on a larger portion of the downstroke. The coordination of pushing harder through as much of the 12-6 part of the stroke while getting that leg out of the way from 6-12 is important. However, IME, this is best practiced pedaling with both legs, either with high cadence cycling, riding rollers, riding in snow/ice or riding fixed. Shane Agree with this statement 100%. Totally forgot about rollers...best way to "smooth" the stroke IMO. |
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