SBR "U" (Page 47)

I've got a trail-filled summer. I am doing a series where points are totaled best 6 of 11. Also my big A type races are the mountain running National Championship and Pike's Peak Ascent. Finally my end of summer cap will not be a race but a long multi-day section run of the Pacific Crest Trail with another BT-er. I haven't planned past fall but will be doing cross country and then maybe figuring out a marathon or something. 

April 11:Squak Mountain 12K

April 26: Run Like the Wind 10K

 May 2: Grand Ridge 5 mile

June 20: Taylor Mountain 5 miler

July 25: USATF Mountain Running National Championship

Aug 1: Grand Ridge 5m-HM

Aug 15-16: Pike's Peak Ascent Half Marathon

Sept 5: Dash Point 10K-HM

PCT-Run: 105 miles, 25K elevation. 

Sept 26: Tehela 5K-HM* 

 Oct 17: USATF Trail Half Marathon Championship

And here is last weekend race report!

I think that speed-work is a really broad term and is used to cover all of the above. It can actually be quite confusing, so you are not alone

intervals, strides, fartleks, tempo runs... they are all speedwork. Like you said, any work at speed is speed-work! 

Fartlek.  Still makes me chuckle, 25 years on (OK, so I'm a sophomore - or maybe just a 'more). 

Anyway, I did 6 x slight downhill strides in the middle of an easy workout this morning (as prescribed), and it definitely felt like speed work, even though they were only 20" each with a walk-back recovery!

Matt

Howdy - welcome aboard! This group is always open and we never close. The only real caveat is that in order to take names we require you to use your real one. If you are up for that read the guidelines on the very first page of this thread, and tell us a little about yourself. The smart folks in tbe group will have you kicking but in no time.

Again, welcome!

Welcome Justin!

When is your first race?

Is there something about this group that attracts Canadians?  LOL

Welcome Justin.  Don't be afraid to just jump into the middle of the conversation.

oh, good lord.

Matt, I was pondering this comment you made. 3 days recovery seems ample. Do you think maybe you are doing those track workouts too hard? Or, what are the days like between Tuesday and Friday? 

Canadian AND Texan?  Wow, did you pick the right group.  Kismet...

I'm also in Texas (though "from" New England and have only been here a bit over half a year - so I'm still learning the local ropes), so a hardy howdy!!  Specifically, I'm in Austin - so I've been told by "real" Texans that I actually live in Austin and am surrounded by Texas, but whatevs... 

Wiki Wiki Man looks like a fun race.  Sounds like you have a great season planned - I love the Oly distance.

Again, welcome aboard!

Matt

Isn't this how it always starts?

Really good question.  My answer is, as I'm sure you expect, "It depends." 

TLDR version:  Those track sessions are typically too hard, when part of an integrated run-specific or mutli-sport plan when the Friday in question is not the target race, for me to be able to perform at even a B-race level three days later - even with only easy runs on Wed and Thursday.  They are usually just hard enough to push adaptation targeted for that week within that plan, but that doesn't contemplate a race three days after the track work, of course.  Easily modified to bump Friday from a "training through" hard run to a B level race, but **FOR ME** I'd have to pull back a bit on Tuesday from a typical track workout (although that varies, as below in the detail).

Probably exacerbated by my continually advancing chronological status.    I need more taper to race even moderately hard than I used to!

Detailed answer (which I wrote first and then realized I must not have a busy schedule today):

During a run only (or mostly) build, Tuesdays are usually my track days.  The workouts are different from the beginning to the end of the build, and different depending on target race distance (5k, 10k, HM only for recent experience - I haven't done a marathon build in almost 20 years and just did whatever track workouts my running group did back then).  I'd also typically do a Tempo run on Thursday (my definition of which - regardless of what it should perhaps be called - is a start slow and accelerate throughout, finishing the last 2-5 minutes at about race pace or slightly above, then easy mile or two finish run).

The week of a race, as part of a taper, that Tuesday would be short efforts at or slightly above race pace, so not speedwork but not a track workout (if that makes sense), and no tempo run (still running, with two days before a race being off and an easy run with strides the day prior as "openers").  That keeps my legs used to speed but bleeds off fatigue.  Longer taper for longer races and such. 

By comparison to "training through," where I'd do a standard speed workout Tuesday and an abbreviate tempo on Thursday, plus the regular easy runs between (again, that varies depending on target race), I'm definitely more fatigued for a weekend race.  I would imagine even more so on a Friday race, but I haven't tried that (I will try it on the 17th of this month, actually, as I'm doing a Friday night neighborhood/town 5k for fun).

So, early in a run-program it probably would be OK (less accumulated fatigue and shorter track sessions at the outset).  Training through during a build for a longer multi-sport event or later in a run-specific block (where this isn't the target race), my legs feel heavier most of the time, compared to even a mini-taper, and I notice that the intensity carries forward a day or so longer when I have a longer and sustained training stress load.

So, if I wanted to go from a "train through" to a B+ effort on a Friday, I'd need to limit the amount of intensity on Tuesday to something like strides or pickups (depending on definition there!) rather than a set of longer or more intense reps on the track (like a day with reps @ 400 or 800s).

Long winded, but I hope that explains what I'm thinking!  Thanks for prodding me to noodle it. 

Matt

Actually no, he doesn't.

How hard are the tempos in comparison to the B-races? For me the B run might only be a bit harder, plus there is another day to get over the fast Tuesday work.

A B race for me isn't about how hard I try to run it, but rather how hard I can run it.  In other words, for a B race, I still show up and race - which for me means going as hard as I'm able at that distance for that day.  What differentiates it from an A race is that I won't taper (or not much - maybe a mini-taper, but not cut a lot of volume prior).

A "C" race is one where I'm running but at a pace that is less than my best effort possible that day and might just be a hard run in the context of my training plan.  Still fun, and maybe harder than the plan calls for, but not by much.

So, A>B>>C for pace (usually - we all have "those" days).

**For me,** tempo runs, if they're a progressive build, usually finish at just above 5k pace or just above 10k pace, for the last 2-5 minutes, depending on what distance race I'm targeting (but almost never faster than a bit above 5k pace).  If it's a run where I warm up and then run a steady, harder pace, I usually think of those as threshold or threshold plus runs, but not tempos (my first coach defined tempo as that gradual increase in speed after a good warmup, so that's how it sticks in my head - and is also how whatshisname with the free plans defines it... argh... ummm... Higdon!   Knew it would come to me).

So, a B-race 5k is 5k as hard as I can race that day, but I won't be peaked/tapered.  That's still a much harder effort than a typical tempo run, for me, where I might only spend the last few minutes at 5k or 10k pace.

And, again, as I get a bit older, I need a little more time than in the past to recover from harder efforts.  Seems I can still throw down (for me), as the last two years I've PR'd every distance I've raced (haven't done a mile or marathon recently) - but I really need to be more mindful of making my easy runs easy and getting a good taper in, or I feel the fatigue lasting longer.  Wish that weren't so, as I remember how friggin' bouncy I used to be ALL THE TIME (even just 5 or 6 years ago).  Still beats the alternative...

Matt

Well, I don't mean to pick on things, but it's still kind of piece work here. I'm not quite sure if you're sure of how to explain things. Doing tempo work in the fall, I might do 20- 30' long. Pace would be near T-pace and could often start 10-20"/mi slower than T-pace and building up the first half. Second half holding right at T-pace, maybe finish just slightly over if feeling really good. Previously I'd done them like this, but at a lower effort. I was using HR more then and would end up more in the lower end of Z4. Now you could go do this exactly as there is a duration and a description of the entire set, not just the last part of it.

For the race, I would expect it to be faster than T-pace since it's a 5k. Haven't thought enough to figure how much faster, but I'd likely be ok with it so long as it was faster than T-pace since it's not a primary one. "As hard as I can" doesn't really say much to what you did, just to how hard you tried. That's probably going to happen regardless of your energy level going in. Sometimes I wouldn't be able to go more than, or even reach T-pace. That's still "as hard as I can", but would show that I was much too fatigued going in to have the race I wanted. The work earlier in the week was too much.

Then for track work, it's still kind of a vague concept. I don't know what you're doing for the sets or basing your pacing off of. Like Adrienne, I'm still wondering if you're doing too much somewhere if you're really struggling to get another faster run 3-4 days later. Running fast can feel quite hard in the moment (and a little after), but often times you stop doing them before your pace actually falls off. Sometimes you push to check, but more often you still have some left over. Being a triathlete, you might also have some biking and swimming in there to take another look at as well. In which case you would have some decisions to make about your priorities.

Another Canuck - the group can never have enough of us!