Swim fitness or technique? (Page 4)
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2015-08-12 10:16 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by Left Brain I texted that quote to a USA swimming level 5 coach. His reply was, "let me guess, a triathlon coach who thinks he knows everything about swimming". You might want to check the credentials of both Joel and Paulo. While they might not be the level 737 swim coach that hang around Jr's pool, but they have or do coach the likes of Simon Whitfield, Olympic gold medal winner, Sarah True and Katie Zaferes (2 of the top 3 American women), Eric L the Alcatraz winner and a whole pile of top triathletes in the world. I suspect they know a thing or two more than you or I |
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2015-08-12 10:23 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by Left Brain That about covers it.......and "swimming more" sure as hell isn't fixing it. Except very few triathletes swim "more" at a level that will matter. Put a triathlete in the water for 3500-5000m a day 6 days a week for a year and then if they're not significantly better one might conclude that. Shane |
2015-08-12 10:26 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Left Brain That about covers it.......and "swimming more" sure as hell isn't fixing it. Except very few triathletes swim "more" at a level that will matter. Put a triathlete in the water for 3500-5000m a day 6 days a week for a year and then if they're not significantly better one might conclude that. Shane They won't make near the gains they could make under a coach who knows how to build their technique with the same yardage. I can't possibly see how you can argue that. |
2015-08-12 10:33 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Left Brain That about covers it.......and "swimming more" sure as hell isn't fixing it. Except very few triathletes swim "more" at a level that will matter. Put a triathlete in the water for 3500-5000m a day 6 days a week for a year and then if they're not significantly better one might conclude that. Shane They won't make near the gains they could make under a coach who knows how to build their technique with the same yardage. I can't possibly see how you can argue that. There's a reason I think most swimming should be done with a coach on deck and I'm not saying that having feedback on technique is not valuable. However, claiming fitness or technique is a false dichotomy. However, claiming that triathletes are swimming more is, for the most part, incorrect. There are even "coaches" who recommend not swimming a stroke after race season. Shane |
2015-08-12 11:29 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Left Brain There's a reason I think most swimming should be done with a coach on deck and I'm not saying that having feedback on technique is not valuable. However, claiming fitness or technique is a false dichotomy. However, claiming that triathletes are swimming more is, for the most part, incorrect. There are even "coaches" who recommend not swimming a stroke after race season. Shane Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Left Brain That about covers it.......and "swimming more" sure as hell isn't fixing it. Except very few triathletes swim "more" at a level that will matter. Put a triathlete in the water for 3500-5000m a day 6 days a week for a year and then if they're not significantly better one might conclude that. Shane They won't make near the gains they could make under a coach who knows how to build their technique with the same yardage. I can't possibly see how you can argue that. I'm glad you put "coaches" in quotes....because they most certainly are not. I have quite a bit of respect for what you do and have done, along with a few other coaches who have frequented this board. Your knowledge is extensive...but there is a reason I got separate swim and bike coaches for my kid when he wanted to train seriously...and there is a reason I send him to run clinics put on by top run coaches when it works out. No, I can't say I would turn those duties over to his triathlon coach.....but I wouldn't trade his triathlon coach's knowledge on how to put it all together in a year 'round program.....it's just a lot of work that needs to be managed by someone with that knowledge. But I've spent considerable time vetting the coaches I pay.....and they are some of the most knowledgeable people in the country. I'm not about to let someone who took a weekend class to get a coaches certificate handle any of the teaching duties.....and I wouldn't pay a dime to a "triathlon coach" to teach ANYTHING about how to swim fast. If you really want to learn to swim fast, find someone who trains fast swimmers.....and watch and listen to what they teach and how they go about it. There is not a single "junk" yard....it's ALL about learning to swim. Edited by Left Brain 2015-08-12 11:30 AM |
2015-08-12 12:18 PM in reply to: nc452010 |
1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Another semi-related thought; in the group's experience, do you see improvements to a swimmer's stroke as immediate gains, or is there sometimes a one step back for two steps forward type of progress? I ask because the last couple of tweaks I've tried to make either didn't gain me any speed or actually slowed me down and I quickly found myself going back to a more comfortable stroke that I know isn't textbook. |
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2015-08-12 12:23 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by 3mar Another semi-related thought; in the group's experience, do you see improvements to a swimmer's stroke as immediate gains, or is there sometimes a one step back for two steps forward type of progress? I ask because the last couple of tweaks I've tried to make either didn't gain me any speed or actually slowed me down and I quickly found myself going back to a more comfortable stroke that I know isn't textbook. That can happen sometimes. Though I have no idea if what you did should be that way for you. |
2015-08-12 12:58 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by 3mar Another semi-related thought; in the group's experience, do you see improvements to a swimmer's stroke as immediate gains, or is there sometimes a one step back for two steps forward type of progress? I ask because the last couple of tweaks I've tried to make either didn't gain me any speed or actually slowed me down and I quickly found myself going back to a more comfortable stroke that I know isn't textbook. What I see is a "whoa, that felt REALLY good"....and then a time period of trying to duplicate it. During that period there is a search to find just what it was that felt so good.....and then you feel it again. It takes quite a bit of time, and purposefulness for it to become ingrained in your stroke. Kicking can be the same. Raise your hand if you almost go backwards when you kick (if anyone has even tried or suggested that you isolated it).....and using a kickboard to make it down a length of the pool takes forever. You can fix that, and make yourself a MUCH stronger swimmer in the process (and then forget it all when you listen to a "triathlon coach" say you shouldn't kick much to save your legs while your swimming) by working on pointing your toes and gaining flexibility in your ankles.....but then, only people who can actually swim well do kick sets. It will also help your swim fitness. |
2015-08-12 1:47 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain I texted that quote to a USA swimming level 5 coach. His reply was, "let me guess, a triathlon coach who thinks he knows everything about swimming". You might want to check the credentials of both Joel and Paulo. While they might not be the level 737 swim coach that hang around Jr's pool, but they have or do coach the likes of Simon Whitfield, Olympic gold medal winner, Sarah True and Katie Zaferes (2 of the top 3 American women), Eric L the Alcatraz winner and a whole pile of top triathletes in the world. I suspect they know a thing or two more than you or I And they didn't teach a single one of those folks to swim (yes, I know who they are)......but they're sure glad SOMEBODY did. Edited by Left Brain 2015-08-12 1:58 PM |
2015-08-12 1:57 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Left Brain There's a reason I think most swimming should be done with a coach on deck and I'm not saying that having feedback on technique is not valuable. However, claiming fitness or technique is a false dichotomy. However, claiming that triathletes are swimming more is, for the most part, incorrect. There are even "coaches" who recommend not swimming a stroke after race season. Shane Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Left Brain That about covers it.......and "swimming more" sure as hell isn't fixing it. Except very few triathletes swim "more" at a level that will matter. Put a triathlete in the water for 3500-5000m a day 6 days a week for a year and then if they're not significantly better one might conclude that. Shane They won't make near the gains they could make under a coach who knows how to build their technique with the same yardage. I can't possibly see how you can argue that. I'm glad you put "coaches" in quotes....because they most certainly are not. I have quite a bit of respect for what you do and have done, along with a few other coaches who have frequented this board. Your knowledge is extensive...but there is a reason I got separate swim and bike coaches for my kid when he wanted to train seriously...and there is a reason I send him to run clinics put on by top run coaches when it works out. No, I can't say I would turn those duties over to his triathlon coach.....but I wouldn't trade his triathlon coach's knowledge on how to put it all together in a year 'round program.....it's just a lot of work that needs to be managed by someone with that knowledge. But I've spent considerable time vetting the coaches I pay.....and they are some of the most knowledgeable people in the country. I'm not about to let someone who took a weekend class to get a coaches certificate handle any of the teaching duties.....and I wouldn't pay a dime to a "triathlon coach" to teach ANYTHING about how to swim fast. If you really want to learn to swim fast, find someone who trains fast swimmers.....and watch and listen to what they teach and how they go about it. There is not a single "junk" yard....it's ALL about learning to swim. I don't think there's much question that what you're advocating re: specialist coaches for the individual disciplines with a triathlon coach conducting the orchestra works best in the perfect scenario. It works well for Jr's situation, because he has the time and lack of responsibilities (mortgage, kids, career, etc.) combined with parents who are willing and able to provide the necessary support (financial, logistic, emotional, etc.). It's not feasible for the typical AGer, though. Most don't have the time nor the financial resources to utilize that approach. They have to make compromises. As the subject of this thread is a false dichotomy, it's also a false dichotomy to imply that if they're not going to work with high level swimming only coaches, the typical AGer may as well not bother with coaching. I have a handful of triathletes who swim in a master's program 2 x / week. I don't provide them any swim coaching with the exception of adding in ows sessions in the weeks prior to races. Instead, I manage their overall programming and make sure that the master's coach knows what their racing schedule is, so their swim is ready come race day. I also have athletes who don't swim masters, because either it doesn't work for their schedule, it's not in their budget, or they simply don't enjoy swimming in the team environment. For those who are local to me, I meet them regularly and provide on deck & in water coaching. Like many triathlon coaches, I may not be a USA Swimming Level 5 coach, but I'm not without competitive swimming experience either (as both an athlete and an assistant coach). On average, the master's coached group is slightly faster than the group I coach (but maybe that''s due to fitness, because they have lane mates to push them harder  , but BOTH swim better than their un-coached opponents in races. Also, to echo what Shane said, very few amateur triathletes have the time to put in the volume (regardless of the quality of their coach) to truly make a difference.
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2015-08-12 2:09 PM in reply to: TriMyBest |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Left Brain There's a reason I think most swimming should be done with a coach on deck and I'm not saying that having feedback on technique is not valuable. However, claiming fitness or technique is a false dichotomy. However, claiming that triathletes are swimming more is, for the most part, incorrect. There are even "coaches" who recommend not swimming a stroke after race season. Shane Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Left Brain That about covers it.......and "swimming more" sure as hell isn't fixing it. Except very few triathletes swim "more" at a level that will matter. Put a triathlete in the water for 3500-5000m a day 6 days a week for a year and then if they're not significantly better one might conclude that. Shane They won't make near the gains they could make under a coach who knows how to build their technique with the same yardage. I can't possibly see how you can argue that. I'm glad you put "coaches" in quotes....because they most certainly are not. I have quite a bit of respect for what you do and have done, along with a few other coaches who have frequented this board. Your knowledge is extensive...but there is a reason I got separate swim and bike coaches for my kid when he wanted to train seriously...and there is a reason I send him to run clinics put on by top run coaches when it works out. No, I can't say I would turn those duties over to his triathlon coach.....but I wouldn't trade his triathlon coach's knowledge on how to put it all together in a year 'round program.....it's just a lot of work that needs to be managed by someone with that knowledge. But I've spent considerable time vetting the coaches I pay.....and they are some of the most knowledgeable people in the country. I'm not about to let someone who took a weekend class to get a coaches certificate handle any of the teaching duties.....and I wouldn't pay a dime to a "triathlon coach" to teach ANYTHING about how to swim fast. If you really want to learn to swim fast, find someone who trains fast swimmers.....and watch and listen to what they teach and how they go about it. There is not a single "junk" yard....it's ALL about learning to swim. I don't think there's much question that what you're advocating re: specialist coaches for the individual disciplines with a triathlon coach conducting the orchestra works best in the perfect scenario. It works well for Jr's situation, because he has the time and lack of responsibilities (mortgage, kids, career, etc.) combined with parents who are willing and able to provide the necessary support (financial, logistic, emotional, etc.). It's not feasible for the typical AGer, though. Most don't have the time nor the financial resources to utilize that approach. They have to make compromises. As the subject of this thread is a false dichotomy, it's also a false dichotomy to imply that if they're not going to work with high level swimming only coaches, the typical AGer may as well not bother with coaching. I have a handful of triathletes who swim in a master's program 2 x / week. I don't provide them any swim coaching with the exception of adding in ows sessions in the weeks prior to races. Instead, I manage their overall programming and make sure that the master's coach knows what their racing schedule is, so their swim is ready come race day. I also have athletes who don't swim masters, because either it doesn't work for their schedule, it's not in their budget, or they simply don't enjoy swimming in the team environment. For those who are local to me, I meet them regularly and provide on deck & in water coaching. Like many triathlon coaches, I may not be a USA Swimming Level 5 coach, but I'm not without competitive swimming experience either (as both an athlete and an assistant coach). On average, the master's coached group is slightly faster than the group I coach (but maybe that''s due to fitness, because they have lane mates to push them harder  , but BOTH swim better than their un-coached opponents in races. Also, to echo what Shane said, very few amateur triathletes have the time to put in the volume (regardless of the quality of their coach) to truly make a difference.
I get that 100% Don and I agree. My problem comes when a triathlon coach tries to make themselves out to be a swim coach......because it's not even close. When vetting coaches for Jr I can't tell you how many "triathlon coaches" tried to tell me that I didn't need a swim coach or a cycling coach, or whatever. No. I would just rather have them say that they really don't know $hit about swimming but can help put the yardage together to fit into a program and can help find someone who can teach them to swim. At least it's honest. (I am NOT calling out any person on this board......just my observation from quite a few "triathlon coaches".) |
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2015-08-12 2:10 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by Left Brain And they didn't teach a single one of those folks to swim (yes, I know who they are)......but they're sure glad SOMEBODY did. Well to be fair, very few high level swim coaches are teaching anyone to swim either - they're just teaching them how to swim faster. Also, Joel took Simon from a second pack swimmer (go get them on the bike and run) to a first pack swimmer which is why he was in the mix in Beijing. Shane |
2015-08-12 2:26 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Left Brain And they didn't teach a single one of those folks to swim (yes, I know who they are)......but they're sure glad SOMEBODY did. Well to be fair, very few high level swim coaches are teaching anyone to swim either - they're just teaching them how to swim faster. Also, Joel took Simon from a second pack swimmer (go get them on the bike and run) to a first pack swimmer which is why he was in the mix in Beijing. Shane No, that's not fair. The high level USA swimming coaches are building the programs that teach people to swim. Yes, they get the swimmers when quite a bit of the basic work has been done, but to say they are not involved in the teaching is flatly wrong. Whitfield was one hell of a swimmer when Joel got him. 95% of the people reading this have no idea what it takes to be a 2nd pack swimmer at that level so the comment is somewhat misleading. He took swimmer who could hold 1:05-1:10/100 for 1500 and made him a swimmer who could hold 1:00/100 for that distance. There was no "learning to swim" done there. |
2015-08-12 2:31 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Left Brain There's a reason I think most swimming should be done with a coach on deck and I'm not saying that having feedback on technique is not valuable. However, claiming fitness or technique is a false dichotomy. However, claiming that triathletes are swimming more is, for the most part, incorrect. There are even "coaches" who recommend not swimming a stroke after race season. Shane Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Left Brain That about covers it.......and "swimming more" sure as hell isn't fixing it. Except very few triathletes swim "more" at a level that will matter. Put a triathlete in the water for 3500-5000m a day 6 days a week for a year and then if they're not significantly better one might conclude that. Shane They won't make near the gains they could make under a coach who knows how to build their technique with the same yardage. I can't possibly see how you can argue that. I'm glad you put "coaches" in quotes....because they most certainly are not. I have quite a bit of respect for what you do and have done, along with a few other coaches who have frequented this board. Your knowledge is extensive...but there is a reason I got separate swim and bike coaches for my kid when he wanted to train seriously...and there is a reason I send him to run clinics put on by top run coaches when it works out. No, I can't say I would turn those duties over to his triathlon coach.....but I wouldn't trade his triathlon coach's knowledge on how to put it all together in a year 'round program.....it's just a lot of work that needs to be managed by someone with that knowledge. But I've spent considerable time vetting the coaches I pay.....and they are some of the most knowledgeable people in the country. I'm not about to let someone who took a weekend class to get a coaches certificate handle any of the teaching duties.....and I wouldn't pay a dime to a "triathlon coach" to teach ANYTHING about how to swim fast. If you really want to learn to swim fast, find someone who trains fast swimmers.....and watch and listen to what they teach and how they go about it. There is not a single "junk" yard....it's ALL about learning to swim. I don't think there's much question that what you're advocating re: specialist coaches for the individual disciplines with a triathlon coach conducting the orchestra works best in the perfect scenario. It works well for Jr's situation, because he has the time and lack of responsibilities (mortgage, kids, career, etc.) combined with parents who are willing and able to provide the necessary support (financial, logistic, emotional, etc.). It's not feasible for the typical AGer, though. Most don't have the time nor the financial resources to utilize that approach. They have to make compromises. As the subject of this thread is a false dichotomy, it's also a false dichotomy to imply that if they're not going to work with high level swimming only coaches, the typical AGer may as well not bother with coaching. I have a handful of triathletes who swim in a master's program 2 x / week. I don't provide them any swim coaching with the exception of adding in ows sessions in the weeks prior to races. Instead, I manage their overall programming and make sure that the master's coach knows what their racing schedule is, so their swim is ready come race day. I also have athletes who don't swim masters, because either it doesn't work for their schedule, it's not in their budget, or they simply don't enjoy swimming in the team environment. For those who are local to me, I meet them regularly and provide on deck & in water coaching. Like many triathlon coaches, I may not be a USA Swimming Level 5 coach, but I'm not without competitive swimming experience either (as both an athlete and an assistant coach). On average, the master's coached group is slightly faster than the group I coach (but maybe that''s due to fitness, because they have lane mates to push them harder  , but BOTH swim better than their un-coached opponents in races. Also, to echo what Shane said, very few amateur triathletes have the time to put in the volume (regardless of the quality of their coach) to truly make a difference.
I get that 100% Don and I agree. My problem comes when a triathlon coach tries to make themselves out to be a swim coach......because it's not even close. When vetting coaches for Jr I can't tell you how many "triathlon coaches" tried to tell me that I didn't need a swim coach or a cycling coach, or whatever. No. I would just rather have them say that they really don't know $hit about swimming but can help put the yardage together to fit into a program and can help find someone who can teach them to swim. At least it's honest. (I am NOT calling out any person on this board......just my observation from quite a few "triathlon coaches".) That's a good point, and I get it. I had an athlete who'd swam for Pitt 30 years ago, and was still swimming at a very high level when she came to me, at the age of 50. She laughed when I said she probably knew more about swimming than I did, and I wanted her to continue with her current swimming coach. She appreciated my honesty about it, and said she was with me for the overall program that I could provide along with the triathlon-specific coaching, such as rules, strategy, pacing, bike, and especially run training, plus putting it all together. As a side note, in her only IM, she was 15th female out of the water overall, and went on to nail our projections for her bike and run splits, so the approach can definitely work well.
Edited by TriMyBest 2015-08-12 2:33 PM |
2015-08-12 2:40 PM in reply to: TriMyBest |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Left Brain There's a reason I think most swimming should be done with a coach on deck and I'm not saying that having feedback on technique is not valuable. However, claiming fitness or technique is a false dichotomy. However, claiming that triathletes are swimming more is, for the most part, incorrect. There are even "coaches" who recommend not swimming a stroke after race season. Shane Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Left Brain That about covers it.......and "swimming more" sure as hell isn't fixing it. Except very few triathletes swim "more" at a level that will matter. Put a triathlete in the water for 3500-5000m a day 6 days a week for a year and then if they're not significantly better one might conclude that. Shane They won't make near the gains they could make under a coach who knows how to build their technique with the same yardage. I can't possibly see how you can argue that. I'm glad you put "coaches" in quotes....because they most certainly are not. I have quite a bit of respect for what you do and have done, along with a few other coaches who have frequented this board. Your knowledge is extensive...but there is a reason I got separate swim and bike coaches for my kid when he wanted to train seriously...and there is a reason I send him to run clinics put on by top run coaches when it works out. No, I can't say I would turn those duties over to his triathlon coach.....but I wouldn't trade his triathlon coach's knowledge on how to put it all together in a year 'round program.....it's just a lot of work that needs to be managed by someone with that knowledge. But I've spent considerable time vetting the coaches I pay.....and they are some of the most knowledgeable people in the country. I'm not about to let someone who took a weekend class to get a coaches certificate handle any of the teaching duties.....and I wouldn't pay a dime to a "triathlon coach" to teach ANYTHING about how to swim fast. If you really want to learn to swim fast, find someone who trains fast swimmers.....and watch and listen to what they teach and how they go about it. There is not a single "junk" yard....it's ALL about learning to swim. I don't think there's much question that what you're advocating re: specialist coaches for the individual disciplines with a triathlon coach conducting the orchestra works best in the perfect scenario. It works well for Jr's situation, because he has the time and lack of responsibilities (mortgage, kids, career, etc.) combined with parents who are willing and able to provide the necessary support (financial, logistic, emotional, etc.). It's not feasible for the typical AGer, though. Most don't have the time nor the financial resources to utilize that approach. They have to make compromises. As the subject of this thread is a false dichotomy, it's also a false dichotomy to imply that if they're not going to work with high level swimming only coaches, the typical AGer may as well not bother with coaching. I have a handful of triathletes who swim in a master's program 2 x / week. I don't provide them any swim coaching with the exception of adding in ows sessions in the weeks prior to races. Instead, I manage their overall programming and make sure that the master's coach knows what their racing schedule is, so their swim is ready come race day. I also have athletes who don't swim masters, because either it doesn't work for their schedule, it's not in their budget, or they simply don't enjoy swimming in the team environment. For those who are local to me, I meet them regularly and provide on deck & in water coaching. Like many triathlon coaches, I may not be a USA Swimming Level 5 coach, but I'm not without competitive swimming experience either (as both an athlete and an assistant coach). On average, the master's coached group is slightly faster than the group I coach (but maybe that''s due to fitness, because they have lane mates to push them harder  , but BOTH swim better than their un-coached opponents in races. Also, to echo what Shane said, very few amateur triathletes have the time to put in the volume (regardless of the quality of their coach) to truly make a difference.
I get that 100% Don and I agree. My problem comes when a triathlon coach tries to make themselves out to be a swim coach......because it's not even close. When vetting coaches for Jr I can't tell you how many "triathlon coaches" tried to tell me that I didn't need a swim coach or a cycling coach, or whatever. No. I would just rather have them say that they really don't know $hit about swimming but can help put the yardage together to fit into a program and can help find someone who can teach them to swim. At least it's honest. (I am NOT calling out any person on this board......just my observation from quite a few "triathlon coaches".) That's a good point, and I get it. I had an athlete who'd swam for Pitt 30 years ago, and was still swimming at a very high level when she came to me, at the age of 50. She laughed when I said she probably knew more about swimming than I did, and I wanted her to continue with her current swimming coach. She appreciated my honesty about it, and said she was with me for the overall program that I could provide along with the triathlon-specific coaching, such as rules, strategy, pacing, bike, and especially run training, plus putting it all together. As a side note, in her only IM, she was 15th female out of the water overall, and went on to nail our projections for her bike and run splits, so the approach can definitely work well.
Yessir! My comment wasn't meant to devalue what a good triathlon coach DOES brings to the table in any way. It's invaluable. I apologize if it came off toward that end. |
2015-08-12 3:30 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by Left Brain No, that's not fair. The high level USA swimming coaches are building the programs that teach people to swim. Yes, they get the swimmers when quite a bit of the basic work has been done, but to say they are not involved in the teaching is flatly wrong. My point is bit of a generalization however with the coaches I have worked with, in all three individual sports, triathlon and volleyball, there are usually those good at instruction, those good at development and those good at high performance. Rarely is one coach good at all three and even if they are, these coaches tend to end up with high performance and relying on others to teach the fundamentals. In much the same way that Joel didn't teach Simon to swim but he taught him how to swim at a different level. In the same way that there are triathlon coaches who aren't very good on deck, there are high performance swim coaches that would be terrible with a group of seven year olds. That doesn't mean all high performance swim coaches would be lost in the same way that most good triathlon coaches can help athletes by being on deck. Whitfield was one hell of a swimmer when Joel got him. 95% of the people reading this have no idea what it takes to be a 2nd pack swimmer at that level so the comment is somewhat misleading. He took swimmer who could hold 1:05-1:10/100 for 1500 and made him a swimmer who could hold 1:00/100 for that distance. There was no "learning to swim" done there. True but it's the same for a swim coach at the OTC. They're not helping people learn to swim either. Shane |
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2015-08-12 3:43 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Left Brain No, that's not fair. The high level USA swimming coaches are building the programs that teach people to swim. Yes, they get the swimmers when quite a bit of the basic work has been done, but to say they are not involved in the teaching is flatly wrong. My point is bit of a generalization however with the coaches I have worked with, in all three individual sports, triathlon and volleyball, there are usually those good at instruction, those good at development and those good at high performance. Rarely is one coach good at all three and even if they are, these coaches tend to end up with high performance and relying on others to teach the fundamentals. In much the same way that Joel didn't teach Simon to swim but he taught him how to swim at a different level. In the same way that there are triathlon coaches who aren't very good on deck, there are high performance swim coaches that would be terrible with a group of seven year olds. That doesn't mean all high performance swim coaches would be lost in the same way that most good triathlon coaches can help athletes by being on deck. Whitfield was one hell of a swimmer when Joel got him. 95% of the people reading this have no idea what it takes to be a 2nd pack swimmer at that level so the comment is somewhat misleading. He took swimmer who could hold 1:05-1:10/100 for 1500 and made him a swimmer who could hold 1:00/100 for that distance. There was no "learning to swim" done there. True but it's the same for a swim coach at the OTC. They're not helping people learn to swim either. Shane I don't necessarily disagree with any of that......my problem with this discussion, and swimming discussions in general on this BT board, is that very few people are willing to come out and say; YOU CAN'T SWIM......LEARN TO SWIM!!! Instead, we tend to jump right into more time in the pool, or more intervals, or more whatever. NO......learn to swim!! There is no shortcut to it. And for people who swim at the level that most people here do, that starts with technique, and has nothing to do with fitness other than what they will gain from learning to swim (which will be one hell of a lot more than is being touted by elite triathlon coaches who are already coaching people who can swim like fish - SHAME ON THEM!!)
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2015-08-12 4:40 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Left Brain No, that's not fair. The high level USA swimming coaches are building the programs that teach people to swim. Yes, they get the swimmers when quite a bit of the basic work has been done, but to say they are not involved in the teaching is flatly wrong. My point is bit of a generalization however with the coaches I have worked with, in all three individual sports, triathlon and volleyball, there are usually those good at instruction, those good at development and those good at high performance. Rarely is one coach good at all three and even if they are, these coaches tend to end up with high performance and relying on others to teach the fundamentals. In much the same way that Joel didn't teach Simon to swim but he taught him how to swim at a different level. In the same way that there are triathlon coaches who aren't very good on deck, there are high performance swim coaches that would be terrible with a group of seven year olds. That doesn't mean all high performance swim coaches would be lost in the same way that most good triathlon coaches can help athletes by being on deck. Whitfield was one hell of a swimmer when Joel got him. 95% of the people reading this have no idea what it takes to be a 2nd pack swimmer at that level so the comment is somewhat misleading. He took swimmer who could hold 1:05-1:10/100 for 1500 and made him a swimmer who could hold 1:00/100 for that distance. There was no "learning to swim" done there. True but it's the same for a swim coach at the OTC. They're not helping people learn to swim either. Shane I don't necessarily disagree with any of that......my problem with this discussion, and swimming discussions in general on this BT board, is that very few people are willing to come out and say; YOU CAN'T SWIM......LEARN TO SWIM!!! Instead, we tend to jump right into more time in the pool, or more intervals, or more whatever. NO......learn to swim!! There is no shortcut to it. And for people who swim at the level that most people here do, that starts with technique, and has nothing to do with fitness other than what they will gain from learning to swim (which will be one hell of a lot more than is being touted by elite triathlon coaches who are already coaching people who can swim like fish - SHAME ON THEM!!)
In the masters group I swim with, everyone is either a decent swimmer, or simply doesn't care (they're just there for the social aspect and to splash around a bit. When I travel though, I very rarely see anyone with what I'd call "passable" form, and they're just thrashing through the water so inefficiently that it's hard to watch (and my form leaves much to be desired). The point is, I think there is a very definitive line between competent swimming and complete inefficiency and wasting one's time and effort. I never see anything in between. To me it's the equivalent of riding your bike with your brakes on, or running with your shoelaces tied together. I honestly don't see a sliding scale, they either know what they're doing or are really wasting insane amounts of energy to go nowhere. Here's the thing; at the pool I frequent when I travel to where I am conducting a pilot study (so I'm there every other week right now) there's a masters group that swims and not one is in that passable range and the coach just shouts out the workouts. I have yet to see him correct anyone's form. Maybe he tried in the past and wasn't getting anywhere. Maybe the people don't want the critique, but man, I'm sitting there staring at 2 to 3 really easy fixes, and that says a lot since I'm no expert. Also, I don't remember ever getting instruction on form in high school. I didn't know the term "catch" or any other lingo until this board. We just did yards and yards. Maybe he worked with the people with atrocious form and I didn't see it, but I never remember insetting any instruction. |
2015-08-12 5:23 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by 3mar The point is, I think there is a very definitive line between competent swimming and complete inefficiency and wasting one's time and effort. I never see anything in between. Interesting. I would say there is a point where flaws are flagrant. Let's say it's at 2m/100m (sustained) and over. There is a point where flaws are very subtle. It's say 1m30/100m (sustained) and under. In between you have people with subtle flaws but aren't terribly fast and people with flagrant flaws that can compensate for it. I use the term sustained because 1:30/100m sustained is very different than 1m30 for a single 100m Originally posted by 3mar Also, I don't remember ever getting instruction on form in high school. I didn't know the term "catch" or any other lingo until this board. We just did yards and yards. Maybe he worked with the people with atrocious form and I didn't see it, but I never remember insetting any instruction. I am older than you, but as a kid I distinctly remember the coaches correcting people's catch and pull. We are talking about some of the best swimmer's in the world. Looking back to the 70s, the coach that coached the 8 and unders is at the top of Swim Canada. The guy coaching the 13-14 year olds, today leads Canada's talent program and the guys coaching the faster guys became two of Canada's Olympic team coaches. Bo knows them well. They used to correct stroke at all levels Edited by marcag 2015-08-12 5:34 PM |
2015-08-12 6:11 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by Left Brain In the masters group I swim with, everyone is either a decent swimmer, or simply doesn't care (they're just there for the social aspect and to splash around a bit. When I travel though, I very rarely see anyone with what I'd call "passable" form, and they're just thrashing through the water so inefficiently that it's hard to watch (and my form leaves much to be desired). The point is, I think there is a very definitive line between competent swimming and complete inefficiency and wasting one's time and effort. I never see anything in between. To me it's the equivalent of riding your bike with your brakes on, or running with your shoelaces tied together. I honestly don't see a sliding scale, they either know what they're doing or are really wasting insane amounts of energy to go nowhere. Here's the thing; at the pool I frequent when I travel to where I am conducting a pilot study (so I'm there every other week right now) there's a masters group that swims and not one is in that passable range and the coach just shouts out the workouts. I have yet to see him correct anyone's form. Maybe he tried in the past and wasn't getting anywhere. Maybe the people don't want the critique, but man, I'm sitting there staring at 2 to 3 really easy fixes, and that says a lot since I'm no expert. Also, I don't remember ever getting instruction on form in high school. I didn't know the term "catch" or any other lingo until this board. We just did yards and yards. Maybe he worked with the people with atrocious form and I didn't see it, but I never remember insetting any instruction. Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Left Brain No, that's not fair. The high level USA swimming coaches are building the programs that teach people to swim. Yes, they get the swimmers when quite a bit of the basic work has been done, but to say they are not involved in the teaching is flatly wrong. My point is bit of a generalization however with the coaches I have worked with, in all three individual sports, triathlon and volleyball, there are usually those good at instruction, those good at development and those good at high performance. Rarely is one coach good at all three and even if they are, these coaches tend to end up with high performance and relying on others to teach the fundamentals. In much the same way that Joel didn't teach Simon to swim but he taught him how to swim at a different level. In the same way that there are triathlon coaches who aren't very good on deck, there are high performance swim coaches that would be terrible with a group of seven year olds. That doesn't mean all high performance swim coaches would be lost in the same way that most good triathlon coaches can help athletes by being on deck. Whitfield was one hell of a swimmer when Joel got him. 95% of the people reading this have no idea what it takes to be a 2nd pack swimmer at that level so the comment is somewhat misleading. He took swimmer who could hold 1:05-1:10/100 for 1500 and made him a swimmer who could hold 1:00/100 for that distance. There was no "learning to swim" done there. True but it's the same for a swim coach at the OTC. They're not helping people learn to swim either. Shane I don't necessarily disagree with any of that......my problem with this discussion, and swimming discussions in general on this BT board, is that very few people are willing to come out and say; YOU CAN'T SWIM......LEARN TO SWIM!!! Instead, we tend to jump right into more time in the pool, or more intervals, or more whatever. NO......learn to swim!! There is no shortcut to it. And for people who swim at the level that most people here do, that starts with technique, and has nothing to do with fitness other than what they will gain from learning to swim (which will be one hell of a lot more than is being touted by elite triathlon coaches who are already coaching people who can swim like fish - SHAME ON THEM!!)
I think that Masters swim groups are very different between groups. I know there are people who get good instruction there, and then there are groups like the one you describe. I was in one of the latter groups back in the 80's......no instruction whatsoever, just look at the workouts on a grease board and keep up the best you can. Improvement was slight for people who hadn't gotten good instruction at some point in their life. I don't know how old you are, or where you live, but in my area the best swimmers do not swim high school for the reasons you state. The programs are just very poorly run and coached. I know that is not the case in all parts of the country. But the truth is, for high school aged kids with a college future in swimming, it's much more important to participate in Sectional, Zone, and Jr. National meets that are run by USA swimming.....especially for men...that is club swimming. You really have to be in the very top percentage of school aged boys to go to college on a swim scholarship......high school swimming alone just won't cut it. If anyone really wanted to become a better swimmer, they could contact the head coach at a local club team and find out where to go for some good instruction. The coaches of those groups are very dedicated people with HUGE swim backgrounds. They typically know everyone who is anyone in the swimming world in their area. They are happy to point anyone in the right direction. |
2015-08-13 5:50 AM in reply to: 3mar |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by 3mar Also, I don't remember ever getting instruction on form in high school. I didn't know the term "catch" or any other lingo until this board. We just did yards and yards. Maybe he worked with the people with atrocious form and I didn't see it, but I never remember insetting any instruction. 3mar, I m curious, what does your 100m all out time look like compared to the pace you can hold for a "long time" like a 1500m swim ? yards to 1650m is fine. Pool times, not OWS. I am not really interested in what the kids are doing, more the adult swimmers. |
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2015-08-13 6:47 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
1300 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by gsmacleod Yes but they typically did help someone learn to swim and swim fast. That's how they got to be a coach there. Originally posted by Left BrainNo, that's not fair. The high level USA swimming coaches are building the programs that teach people to swim. Yes, they get the swimmers when quite a bit of the basic work has been done, but to say they are not involved in the teaching is flatly wrong. My point is bit of a generalization however with the coaches I have worked with, in all three individual sports, triathlon and volleyball, there are usually those good at instruction, those good at development and those good at high performance. Rarely is one coach good at all three and even if they are, these coaches tend to end up with high performance and relying on others to teach the fundamentals. In much the same way that Joel didn't teach Simon to swim but he taught him how to swim at a different level. In the same way that there are triathlon coaches who aren't very good on deck, there are high performance swim coaches that would be terrible with a group of seven year olds. That doesn't mean all high performance swim coaches would be lost in the same way that most good triathlon coaches can help athletes by being on deck. Whitfield was one hell of a swimmer when Joel got him. 95% of the people reading this have no idea what it takes to be a 2nd pack swimmer at that level so the comment is somewhat misleading. He took swimmer who could hold 1:05-1:10/100 for 1500 and made him a swimmer who could hold 1:00/100 for that distance. There was no "learning to swim" done there. True but it's the same for a swim coach at the OTC. They're not helping people learn to swim either. Shane |
2015-08-13 7:20 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by Left Brain I don't necessarily disagree with any of that......my problem with this discussion, and swimming discussions in general on this BT board, is that very few people are willing to come out and say; YOU CAN'T SWIM......LEARN TO SWIM!!! In some cases the answer is certainly learn how to swim. This is why in many cases I'll recommend that someone get lessons because they don't have the basics. However, something that plays a role with AG triathlon and especially the adult onset swimmers, is that they may know how to swim but they are "slow" for a variety of reasons. For these athletes, it may be that they have a physical limitation, they may not have the time or desire to put the time in the water to hold good form for very long or they may just be a slow swimmer (in the same way someone might max out at a 10:00/mile). For Kids swimming, they're going to do the volume and if they fall into the first or last group, they're likely to quit the sport. So, when you look at a swim club, everyone can swim but that's because you see all those who left the sport because they couldn't keep up. Triathlon doesn't (necessarily) exude these slower swimmers in the age group ranks. Obviously at the pointy end, you either need to swim fast or you're done but, regardless of time/effort/dedication to swimming, not everyone is going to race at 1:20/100m. Instead, we tend to jump right into more time in the pool, or more intervals, or more whatever. NO......learn to swim!! There is no shortcut to it. And for people who swim at the level that most people here do, that starts with technique, and has nothing to do with fitness other than what they will gain from learning to swim (which will be one hell of a lot more than is being touted by elite triathlon coaches who are already coaching people who can swim like fish - SHAME ON THEM!!) You're falling into the false dichotomy - yes people need to learn to swim but then good technique will be reinforced by swimming. This is Joel's and Paulo's point - if you know how to swim, time in the pool, with good form, is required to become a better swimmer. Do distances that you can maintain good form, recover and repeat. Then, you'll build to the point that your fitness and technique will allow you to swim a longer distance with good form. More swimming and that would continue. They are not saying you should mindlessly thrash from end to end. Rather their comments are targeted at those who set out to drill almost exclusively and then wonder why their "great" form hasn't improved speed since they only done slow 50-100 drills for a big block of time. Instead, they're suggesting that doing something like 40x50 with a focus on swimming with good technique at a solid pace will be much more valuable. Shane |
2015-08-13 7:24 AM in reply to: Goggles Pizzano |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano Yes but they typically did help someone learn to swim and swim fast. That's how they got to be a coach there. For sure - my point was that high level coaches are typically refining not teaching technique. This is true for swimming and triathlon (and pretty much any other sport) so to claim that high level swimming coaches know how to teach technique but someone like Joel doesn't because his athletes are all fast switch,mers to start is incorrect. Shane |
2015-08-13 7:29 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by gsmacleod You're falling into the false dichotomy - yes people need to learn to swim but then good technique will be reinforced by swimming. This is Joel's and Paulo's point - if you know how to swim, time in the pool, with good form, is required to become a better swimmer. Do distances that you can maintain good form, recover and repeat. Then, you'll build to the point that your fitness and technique will allow you to swim a longer distance with good form. More swimming and that would continue. They are not saying you should mindlessly thrash from end to end. Rather their comments are targeted at those who set out to drill almost exclusively and then wonder why their "great" form hasn't improved speed since they only done slow 50-100 drills for a big block of time. Instead, they're suggesting that doing something like 40x50 with a focus on swimming with good technique at a solid pace will be much more valuable. Shane Well said I hope people will have the open mind to read and try and understand it. |
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Progress on roller technique - but alas, it's been only technique | |||
LA Fitness, Anytime Fitness, Bally's, Snap Fitness? Pages: 1 2 | |||
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