Swim fitness or technique?
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2015-08-07 7:42 AM |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: Swim fitness or technique? If you're a 2:00/100 swimmer, what's keeping you from being a 1:40/100 swimmer? Between the two choices (thread title)......not "both". If you can run a 6:00 mile, what's stopping you from running 26.2 at that pace (technique or fitness)? If you're a 2:00/100 swimmer in your tris.......how fast can you swim a 100 in training? Just curious. I am an "adult onset" swimmer. |
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2015-08-07 7:47 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Since I can't pick "both", I'm going with technique. |
2015-08-07 7:52 AM in reply to: axteraa |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Also, is there a speed in which you swim SLOW....which has diminishing returns....as far as technique is concerned? |
2015-08-07 8:01 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by nc452010 Also, is there a speed in which you swim SLOW....which has diminishing returns....as far as technique is concerned? I'm not sure I understand the question... |
2015-08-07 8:14 AM in reply to: axteraa |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? For example........If you are a 1:50/100 swimmer........does your technique suffer if you swim at 2:10/100? I know those are worlds apart, but I did it that way on purpose. If you're a 1:30/100 swimmer, I'm not sure you'd understand my plight. |
2015-08-07 8:23 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? What if I'm a 1:20/100 swimmer? I can hold that pace for a fairly long time but I would have to deliberately sabotage my stroke to drop to 1:40/100. I don't see why this wouldn't hold true from 1:50 to 2:10. So yes, I think you can swim too slow. |
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2015-08-07 8:33 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? I'll say technique is a prerequisite, and fitness is then how far you can take it. Here's an analogy, and it's the best I can come up with right now; if you were to compare it to the running, it'd be like running with your shoelaces tied together. In that situation with the shortened stride, there would be a certain range your fitness would determine your speed. If you untie the shoe laces then that same range of fitness vs speed would shift. And when you see someone with bad form in the pool, that's exactly what they look like. So with bad form maybe your range based on your fitness would be between 1:50-2:30/100m, but with that exact same range in fitness, and good form,you'd be 1:10-1:30/100m. They're both sliding scales, but with good form the entire scale moved. If I'm doing 100m repeats, I'm averaging around 1:20/100m. Now, with my same fitness level, if my form was really bad, I'd be at 1:50, or if I could fix some things then maybe at the same fitness level I'll do them at 1:15. I would say anyone in reasonable shape, that can't maintain 1:40/100m for any real distance, it is a form issue predominantly. |
2015-08-07 8:35 AM in reply to: 0 |
1300 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by nc452010For example........If you are a 1:50/100 swimmer........does your technique suffer if you swim at 2:10/100?I know those are worlds apart, but I did it that way on purpose. If you're a 1:30/100 swimmer, I'm not sure you'd understand my plight. A 1:20 / 100 swimmer going to 2:00 / 100 swim would probably suffer technique wise but a 1:50 swimmer going to 2:00 probably not. In fact the latter may be able to hold better form longer. Edited by Goggles Pizzano 2015-08-07 8:37 AM |
2015-08-07 8:39 AM in reply to: 3mar |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? ^When you say "reasonable shape", I'm assuming you mean "swimming" shape. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm so much a novice at swimming, I have no idea what being in swimming shape means. Right now, I'm just swimming and trying to add volume. I literally have NO idea what it would take for me to say I was in shape (swimming shape....as I've been in running shape before and know what that takes). I just think I'm sabotaging my progress if I try to swim really slow. My form suffers. |
2015-08-07 8:41 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? You're putting arbitrary limitations on the responses that are going to limit what you can learn from this discussion. It's rarely an either/or technique or fitness proposition regarding swimming limiters. It's almost always some combination of the two. At 2:00 / 100, it's likely technique is a greater limiter than fitness, but both will still be factors. As far as intentionally swimming slowly, that's an excellent drill to check balance and streamlining. When you slow down, the amount of lift generated by your forward movement decreases, so issues that were masked by lift are revealed. But, like all drills, it has it's place, and shouldn't be done without purpose.
Edited by TriMyBest 2015-08-07 8:42 AM |
2015-08-07 8:43 AM in reply to: TriMyBest |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? ^Could you slow to 2:10/100 and not see your form suffer? |
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2015-08-07 8:56 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Extreme Veteran 1018 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? It's technique (efficient at pulling\catching the most water) and holding that technique when you increase your cadence. When you increase the cadence, fitness and strength will come into play. If you are gliding, you aren't propelling. |
2015-08-07 8:59 AM in reply to: 0 |
137 Birmingham, Alabama | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? I started swimming just 6 weeks ago and was able to get my 100 time to 1:46 (average during a 500 yd interval), but kind of got stuck there for a couple of weeks. I saw some folks recommend Total Immersion to work on technique, so I picked up the book and DVD at my local library. The first time I swam after just running through a few of the drills I was at a 1:35/100 pace (again, average at a 500 yd interval). I haven't really been pushing for time (just technique) since, but I can tell that I'm moving much more efficiently through the water even if I'm swimming easy at the moment. I'd grab a copy of the book if you can. It has been helpful to me anyway. There's certainly no harm in reading it. Edited by marti038 2015-08-07 9:00 AM |
2015-08-07 9:04 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by nc452010 ^When you say "reasonable shape", I'm assuming you mean "swimming" shape. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm so much a novice at swimming, I have no idea what being in swimming shape means. Right now, I'm just swimming and trying to add volume. I literally have NO idea what it would take for me to say I was in shape (swimming shape....as I've been in running shape before and know what that takes). I just think I'm sabotaging my progress if I try to swim really slow. My form suffers. If you're in good enough shape to run a 9:00 MM or bike 18+ mph, then you should be in good enough shape to swim sub 2:00/100m very easily, if not there are huge form limiters. It doesn't take much effort to swim that speed if your form is correct. Every time I'm at the pool I will be lapping people that are using twice as much energy as I am. Work on your form, a lot. |
2015-08-07 9:19 AM in reply to: axteraa |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by axteraa Originally posted by nc452010 Also, is there a speed in which you swim SLOW....which has diminishing returns....as far as technique is concerned? I'm not sure I understand the question... I don't think the OP understands the question to ask. As Don started explaining, don't try to separate the two things. |
2015-08-07 9:26 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? I'll go back to the "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast" scenario. If you swim slow enough to maintain good technique, then the improved technique will eventually make you faster. The nice thing about improving your technique is that you can pick up "free speed": You can swim faster at a given tempo with the same, or less effort. Your "easy" 100 then drops from 2:00 to 1:40 or whatever. You need to establish a good technique foundation and then imprint that muscle memory through repetition. Don't swim intervals any longer than where you can maintain good form the entire way. At my masters workouts we seldom do any intervals over 400 yds., but we do a lot of 25 yd and 50 yd, all-out sprints. (We did a sprint set of 16 x 25 yd on 0:30 sec this morning). While some long swims have their place in race prep, you get faster by developing good technique through frequency and repetition. Mark
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2015-08-07 9:33 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by nc452010 ^Could you slow to 2:10/100 and not see your form suffer? Me personally? Probably not. Could someone else? Maybe. That's the whole point of the drill. It reveals technique flaws, so if you take a swimmer who's T-pace is 1:10, they probably can slow to a 2:00 pace without many noticeable technique issues. Ask a swimmer with a 1:40 T-pace to do the same, and they'll struggle a lot more.
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2015-08-07 9:38 AM in reply to: RedCorvette |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Let me ask this another way......... Let's say I can swim a 1:40/100. But, doing so has me gassed (can't do repeats on any appreciable rest interval). Now, is the thing limiting me from doing this, for extended periods, fitness or technique? Both? I keep hearing people say that they fall into a natural rhythm. If your natural rhythm is 1:50/100 and you try to swim 2:10/100....would this throw off your breathing and form? My wife took some really short videos on her iphone. If an expert want to look and critique, shoot me a number! |
2015-08-07 9:41 AM in reply to: TriMyBest |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by nc452010 ^Could you slow to 2:10/100 and not see your form suffer? Me personally? Probably not. Could someone else? Maybe. That's the whole point of the drill. It reveals technique flaws, so if you take a swimmer who's T-pace is 1:10, they probably can slow to a 2:00 pace without many noticeable technique issues. Ask a swimmer with a 1:40 T-pace to do the same, and they'll struggle a lot more. Don, I'm not so sure that's true. I honestly don't know what I would have to do to slow down to 2:00 short of massive pauses between each stroke. Of course that might just mean I have a bunch of technique flaws. Maybe I will try it next time I am in the pool to see what happens. |
2015-08-07 9:44 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by GAUG3 You are NOT propelling, you are pulling. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of good/fast swimming. Think of it as if you are laying on top of monkey bars.....you would pull yourself along.It's technique (efficient at pulling\catching the most water) and holding that technique when you increase your cadence. When you increase the cadence, fitness and strength will come into play. If you are gliding, you aren't propelling. Edited by Left Brain 2015-08-07 9:46 AM |
2015-08-07 9:49 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? I just got back in the pool, but I'm still very much a beginner. I'm swimming 50's at :55, trying to go as slow as I can. I just don't have any appreciable endurance (yet). I'm struggling to ask what I want to know the right way. Should I just swim at the pace that "feels" natural and wait for my endurance to build........or, slow down (and feel like I'm fighting the process)? |
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2015-08-07 9:53 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by nc452010 Let me ask this another way......... Let's say I can swim a 1:40/100. But, doing so has me gassed (can't do repeats on any appreciable rest interval). Now, is the thing limiting me from doing this, for extended periods, fitness or technique? Both?... It could be either. Or both. It sounds like you're trying to identify your biggest limiter, so you can focus your training almost exclusively on that? Stop thinking of it as a binary choice between training technique or fitness. Instead, recognize that they're both relevant. Every swimming session you do should look more or less like this:
Notice that that structure includes time for both technique and fitness. The exact prescription of how much time is spent on each, and what you do during that time will vary based on your skill level and current training focus. For example, a complete beginner might spend 75%+ of the session working on technique, while someone with well developed skills will spend 90%+ of it doing hard sets. In between these two examples, there could be any combination of time spent on technique and fitness. edited to fix fat finger typos. Edited by TriMyBest 2015-08-07 10:05 AM |
2015-08-07 9:53 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by nc452010 I just got back in the pool, but I'm still very much a beginner. I'm swimming 50's at :55, trying to go as slow as I can. I just don't have any appreciable endurance (yet). I'm struggling to ask what I want to know the right way. Should I just swim at the pace that "feels" natural and wait for my endurance to build........or, slow down (and feel like I'm fighting the process)? You should swim at a pace that lets you maintain your form for the workout. Are you doing those 50s on a set repeat time? ie. 10 x 50 on 1:10, finishing in :55 (so 15s rest) or just swimming the 50 and starting the next when you are ready? |
2015-08-07 9:57 AM in reply to: axteraa |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? I just did that workout the first time, yesterday. I'm going on set times, but it's not 15s rest My plan is to reduce the rest interval between them, then increase the distance of the sets (with extended rest)....and repeat. |
2015-08-07 9:59 AM in reply to: TriMyBest |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by nc452010 Let me ask this another way......... Let's say I can swim a 1:40/100. But, doing so has me gassed (can't do repeats on any appreciable rest interval). Now, is the thing limiting me from doing this, for extended periods, fitness or technique? Both?... It could be either. Or both. It sounds like you're trying to identify your biggest limiter, so you can focus your training almost exclusively on that? Stop thinking of it as a binary choice between training technique or fitness. Instead, recognize that they're both relevant. Every swimming session you do should look more or less like this:
Notice that that structure includes time for both technique and fitness. The exact prescription of how much time is spent on each, and what you do during that time will vary based on your skill level and current training focus. For example, a complete beginner might spend 75%+ of the session working on technique, while someone will well developed skills will spend 90%+ of it doing hard sets. In between these two examples, there could be any combination of time spent on technique and fitness.
Thank you for this. |
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