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Less Kicking During Swim
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 2009-06-20 8:40 AM |
Expert  675    Woodridge, IL |  Subject: Less Kicking During SwimDoes anyone have any drills or general recommendations for conditioning myself to kick less during the swim? I am OK in a wetsuit bc of the buoyancy, but when I'm in the pool I kick continuously. I can concentrate on not kicking but once I get into a rhythm I forget again. Thanks! |
| 2009-06-20 10:46 AM in reply to: #2230524 |
Regular 88 | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim Definitely no expert here so take this for what it's worth. I've found that, as my balance in the water increased, I needed to kick a lot less. I went from kicking continuously for propulsion to a 2-beat kick for stability and balance. I dedicated 4 weeks or so to only balance drills, and now mix balance drills with my sets. less kicking, for me, came from not needing to kick to keep my hips up. still a ton of room for improvement, but it's getting better! Izzy |
| 2009-06-20 11:08 AM in reply to: #2230524 |
Champion 7595  Columbia, South Carolina | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim You might want to check out this thread. Good stuff from good swimmers. |
| 2009-06-20 11:11 AM in reply to: #2230524 |
Expert 675 Woodridge, IL | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim Sweet, thanks!! |
| 2009-06-20 4:13 PM in reply to: #2230672 |
Extreme Veteran 369 Maine | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim Experior - 2009-06-20 12:08 PM You might want to check out this thread. Good stuff from good swimmers. I can't believe that was just 6 weeks ago that I started that thread ^^^, asking basically the same question as this OP. I've watched the famous tjfry video countless times, visualized the process hundreds of times both in the pool and out, and tried to remain as focused as possible while swimming in what I was trying to achieve. In that 6 weeks, I've swam about 22k yards, and have seen ENORMOUS gains - measured by gaining chunks of time at longer and longer distances, while "working less" or swimming "more efficiently". I also can confirm that the O2 savings gained when changing from a semi-continuous kick to a 2beat kick is immediately noticeable. The advice that I gained from the respondants in that thread, especially tjfry, is the major reason I've improved as I have. Yes I would have still had to actually swim swim swim, but the shared knowledge/experience of those folks allowed me to skip several chapters in that book.  |
| 2009-06-20 6:09 PM in reply to: #2230524 |
| Modesto, California | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim One way to eliminate your kick completely and have the ability to rotate,work on your pull and balance is using a band. The band will also help train to reduce resistance in your legs(keep legs close together,straight,toes pointed). |
| 2009-06-21 6:12 AM in reply to: #2230524 |
Expert 675 Woodridge, IL | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim You're totally right, Mainer - TJFry's vids are awesome! I am going to work on trying that and then maybe also get that band nevergivein had recommended |
| 2009-06-21 9:05 AM in reply to: #2230524 |
Veteran 274 outskirts of town | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim That's what I like about this place! Somebody always asks the question I'm seeking an answer to. That two beat kick looks so effortless! Kick drills are painful for me because of the "kick from the hips with a straight leg" philosophy. The great golf teacher Harvey Penick used to say some times all you need is a little medicine instead of swallowing the whole pill bottle. Well I swallowed the whole bottle on that one. I was beginning to wonder why people were bringing their laundry to the pool when I was doing kick drills!!! I can't wait to try implementing the kick where it is the trigger for rotation, rather than a result. Swimming reminds me so much of the golf swing. There are so many of us looking for the "secret" move. Once we hear a great tip, it's off to the range/pool to try it!! |
| 2009-06-21 1:52 PM in reply to: #2230524 |
Expert 1123 Falls Church, VA | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim <---------- Is guilty of kicking/swimming too hard during his frist tri and couldn't even push his usual 'casual' pace on the bike. (although a lot of that had to do with no experience navigating in a current, and then getting trapped behind a slow swimmer while in that current, thus getting pulled further off course and needing to push hard up against said current) I only swam for a year when I was 12 or so, but at that age, the longest event is a 400IM, so we were taught to kick with all we had. Here's hoping I can be a bit more calm in the water next time. |
| 2009-06-21 3:04 PM in reply to: #2230524 |
Champion 19812 MA | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim Don't buy a band just cut an old bike tube and tie a good knot. I made one in December and have used it almost every swim work out since. |
| 2009-06-21 3:56 PM in reply to: #2232049 |
Champion 7595 Columbia, South Carolina | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim KathyG - 2009-06-21 4:04 PM Don't buy a band just cut an old bike tube and tie a good knot. I made one in December and have used it almost every swim work out since. X2. I had an old velcro strap hanging around and use that. These are easy to fashion yourself out of whatever is convenient. Oh, and yes, the band has definitely helped me. I pay close attention to the water rushing fast my feet, and can feel where I am not streamlined. I can't always FIX it, but I can FEEL it! |
| 2009-06-21 5:56 PM in reply to: #2230524 |
| Expert 658 | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim Pull bouys and bands round your ankles. |
| 2009-06-21 6:02 PM in reply to: #2232230 |
Champion 8936 | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim supa-powa - 2009-06-21 5:56 PM Pull bouys and bands round your ankles. Not together. That would defeat the purpose of the band. |
| 2009-06-21 8:32 PM in reply to: #2230524 |
Master 1325 Lake Oswego, OR | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim I naturally developed a 2 beat crossover years before I knew what it was. Have you tried not doing any kicking sets in practice? I don't but I've had years of swimming. I save my legs for bike and run workouts. |
| 2009-06-22 7:48 AM in reply to: #2230524 |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim I didn't realize that my comments/video were as helpful as they seem to be. I appreciate the kind comments. I re-read my post and thought I would elaborate a little for anyone who's interested.
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| 2009-06-22 7:57 AM in reply to: #2232235 |
Champion 19812 MA | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim DerekL - 2009-06-21 7:02 PM supa-powa - 2009-06-21 5:56 PM Pull bouys and bands round your ankles. Not together. That would defeat the purpose of the band. My tri coach has me use band and pull buoy together every swim. I think it helps me learn to keep my feet together which I tend to splay them out some. |
| 2009-06-22 12:30 PM in reply to: #2233252 |
Expert 675 Woodridge, IL | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim tjfry - 2009-06-22 7:48 AM I didn't realize that my comments/video were as helpful as they seem to be. I appreciate the kind comments. I re-read my post and thought I would elaborate a little for anyone who's interested. This is great, thanks! I am going to start working on that during this week's swim workouts. My last tri had me so exhausted in the legs that, like a previous poster, I was the slowest person ever to ride a bicycle. It was terrible & I'ld like to prevent that again - so thank you! |
| 2009-06-22 3:18 PM in reply to: #2233252 |
Master 1325 Lake Oswego, OR | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim tjfry - 2009-06-22 5:48 AM I didn't realize that my comments/video were as helpful as they seem to be. I appreciate the kind comments. I re-read my post and thought I would elaborate a little for anyone who's interested.
trifry Thanks for the link. I read through the swim articles and they offer great insight and many helpful suggestions. As a swimmer I am always on the lookout for someone with a high level of expertise so I can learn from them. I look forward to reading the rest of you website for help in the other disciplines. If they are half as good as the swimming advice, there is a lot I will learn from them. It is a very professional looking site. PS Damn you've got a great freestyle stroke. Great underwater video. |
| 2009-06-23 10:08 AM in reply to: #2230524 |
Expert 1123 Falls Church, VA | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim So I tried this out today, and it's definitely a different feel. I'm slower right now for sure, and my upper body is definitely more tired. So TJ, would you still say this is the way to go if you're almost never racing in a wetsuit, and your bike segments are on a mountain bike trails? (downhills can be scary with a zapped upper body) |
| 2009-06-23 10:58 AM in reply to: #2230524 |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim Absolutely. Better swimming is better swimming. Your upper body will adjust...but more importantly your balance will adjust. For most people, the legs keep moving in a wetsuit, even if they aren't working as hard. The upper body you use on a mountain bike (chest, biceps, forearms) is not the upper body you use in swimming (delts, triceps, lats). Give it a little time. TJ Edit: Sorry I thought you said you were always wearing a wetsuit. If you never wear a wetsuit then you lose that leg buoyancy and a better kick is even more important. Grab a kickboard from time to time to measure the progress of your kick ability (no fins). As you get more effective in your kick you will find that kicking less will come easier. Edited by tjfry 2009-06-23 11:02 AM |
| 2009-06-23 11:15 AM in reply to: #2230524 |
Member 65 New Haven, CT | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim Awesome advice. Def need to give it a try in the pool tomorrow. Thanks guys! |
| 2009-06-23 12:38 PM in reply to: #2230524 |
| Leesburg, Va | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim This is great! For the longest time I have had swimmers telling me that I am swimming wrong. All the time I always felt better swimming like this and all the coaches told me to try and change. For some weird reason I could never kick continuously, I would always roll over or swim zig zag. Thanks for the post, now I don't feel inferior. I always felt it was the same motion as roller skating or cross country skiing. Thanks |
| 2009-06-23 1:26 PM in reply to: #2236927 |
Expert 1123 Falls Church, VA | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim tjfry - 2009-06-23 11:58 AM Absolutely. Better swimming is better swimming. Your upper body will adjust...but more importantly your balance will adjust. For most people, the legs keep moving in a wetsuit, even if they aren't working as hard. The upper body you use on a mountain bike (chest, biceps, forearms) is not the upper body you use in swimming (delts, triceps, lats). Give it a little time. TJ Edit: Sorry I thought you said you were always wearing a wetsuit. If you never wear a wetsuit then you lose that leg buoyancy and a better kick is even more important. Grab a kickboard from time to time to measure the progress of your kick ability (no fins). As you get more effective in your kick you will find that kicking less will come easier. I think with my 6 beat kick, staying streamlined is easier. Seems like I'm a good candidate for ankle locks too. First thing I noticed was the feeling that my legs wanted to sink. Not sure if I'll implement this for my next race or not, since I think my mistake was more mental than being a weaker swimmer. (just keep the pace within my limits was my goal before.. ) |
| 2009-06-23 3:17 PM in reply to: #2237346 |
Master 1325 Lake Oswego, OR | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim hankbobchuck - 2009-06-23 10:38 AM This is great! For the longest time I have had swimmers telling me that I am swimming wrong. All the time I always felt better swimming like this and all the coaches told me to try and change. For some weird reason I could never kick continuously, I would always roll over or swim zig zag. Thanks for the post, now I don't feel inferior. Thanks You are not alone. I naturally developed a 2 beat cross over kick as a distance freestyler. My coach used to always tell me I was being lazy. Through a lot of practice I was able to go as far as a 500yd/400m with a 4-6 beat. Anything longer, particularly in open water, it was always a 2 beat cross over. One thing I do notice is that for surges and strong finished I use a much stronger kick, but it is still a 2 beat CO. |
| 2009-06-23 3:35 PM in reply to: #2237506 |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Less Kicking During Swim Bioteknik - 2009-06-23 1:26 PM tjfry - 2009-06-23 11:58 AM Absolutely. Better swimming is better swimming. Your upper body will adjust...but more importantly your balance will adjust. For most people, the legs keep moving in a wetsuit, even if they aren't working as hard. The upper body you use on a mountain bike (chest, biceps, forearms) is not the upper body you use in swimming (delts, triceps, lats). Give it a little time. TJ Edit: Sorry I thought you said you were always wearing a wetsuit. If you never wear a wetsuit then you lose that leg buoyancy and a better kick is even more important. Grab a kickboard from time to time to measure the progress of your kick ability (no fins). As you get more effective in your kick you will find that kicking less will come easier. I think with my 6 beat kick, staying streamlined is easier. Seems like I'm a good candidate for ankle locks too. First thing I noticed was the feeling that my legs wanted to sink. Not sure if I'll implement this for my next race or not, since I think my mistake was more mental than being a weaker swimmer. (just keep the pace within my limits was my goal before.. ) This tells me that you're not generating enough propulsion from your pull and making up for it in your kick. How much slower do you swim a 100 with a pull buoy than regular swimming?(**Disclaimer: I haven't seen your stroke so I could be off base here) I agree and wouldn't use in a race until you are comfortable. |
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