swimming recommendation

First off I am not a swimmer, I know how (basics) but as far as endurance when I started in Nov I could was doing 25 yards then rest 30 seconds for about 15-20 minutes thinking there is no way I will ever get up to 500 meter shape for a first leg of a Triathlon. Now I am doing a warm up of 100 then resting 30 seconds with 11X50's then a cool down 100. This is over 2 months but a total of 10 workouts. I took one lesson and got some basic drills I work on but there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I think it was Yvette and TripleThreat that got me motivated and seeing results. They posted their swim success and got me going. I hope this helps. I am also breathing every 3rd or 4th stroke. I like to work on breathing on both sides but feel I am wasting energy breathing every stroke. This took some time but every 3rd is very comfortable now, although I do get winded, I usually do a lap or two doing the breaststroke to recover a rhythm.

Cameron,

I am about 5 weeks into my training, and it was all running and biking before today.
I swam 600 yds this morning and instantly felt like crap (basically was exhausted).

Four years ago, when I started my last swim program, I had the same problem for a week or so, but then it got better and I worked up to averaging 3000 yds per workout.

This morning, within an hour of the swim I felt somewhat better, but what I really need to do is go home, sleep, and recover.

The hardest part is getting to the pool for the next week, and working through the acclimation period.

Hang in there!

Dan



Edited by dhyte 2004-01-05 4:53 PM

Cameron,

Swimming is very sport specific, although one may be "in shape" for running, it does not translate into comfortable swimming. I recommend breathing every stroke as it will regulate your stroke to be as comfortable as possible and not one of oxygen debt. Start off with small sets, perhaps 200 easy warm-up, followed by 5x50 focusing on distance per stroke, ects. Don't forget, to "REAAAAACH!" with each stroke. I can't emphasize that more. Particularly in triathlon, the least amount of strokes you take translate into saved energy and a more efficient stroke. I'm 24, began swimming and competing when I was 4-18 with regional championships I've won. Don't try to do too much in the pool initially, it's an easy recipe for over training.

Best advice that I every received about swimming! Hang in there!

Still Tri'n,
Michael

Bringing back some memories here. When you first start swimming, it feels as if your lungs are filled with cotton candy.

When I first started I was trying to do a breath every 5 strokes ... bad deal (for me) ... each breath was like a last gasp of life.

I switched to every 3 strokes, which is fine early on, but eventually you go to every 2 strokes out of necessity.

The best recommendation I can give you is to "breath as needed". Breathing every stroke, for me, would lead to some serious belches ... too much air. I breath normally in the water every 2 strokes with the occassional 3rd so I can switch sides of breathing. It's not bad at all.

I had typed this before ... but I had never swam (or swum?) longer than 100m continuous. Then one day I just swam 500m with a 50m of backstroke in the middle. The next day I swam 500m all free, and I was shocked that it wasn't too bad.

You get to a point in the middle lengths where the end seems so far away, but you "swim through it" and it gets easier. It reminds me of when riding, how your legs get burning, but if you keep pedaling, the feeling goes away. If you stop and then resume, the feeling comes back. So, at least for me "riding (or swimming) through it" pays off. With intervals, it seems that you can basically do those forever. Swimming continuous (IMO) is almost like a different event.

Another tip I will type is to make sure you exhale completely under water, so that when you turn to breath, there's no exhale, just a nice deep breath. There's not really time to exhale and inhale during one stroke.

I would say it's something that gets easier with time.

I'm going to try a PC Coach recommended swim workout (got Pigg's Tri Bundle -- PC Coach for Christmas), where it's focused on time. 15:00 warmup, 15:00 workout, 15:00 cooldown. It's based on heart rate, but I'm going to try and use the percieved exertion scale. I'll go real easy on the WU and CD, and then moderate pace for the swim workout. Hopefully this will put me about 1000m ... with that distance number increases (over the same time period) over the next few weeks.

I'm trying to get to where 1500m is a breeze.

Triple Threat, I have been using the Pigg Triathlon bundle for about five months or so now; however, I have not used the swimming component. I am going to take 8 swim lessons in February and then incorporate the swimming workout into the other two. I have been very pleased with the program to this point. I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts on the utility and value of the Pigg/Maffetone plan not only for swimming but for the cycling and running legs as well.

Happy New Year everyone.

Chad

Thanks Rio! It was just a shock to me :-) I am hanging in there. Actually, my groin was hurting again this morning (not sure why, I had thought I was fully recovered, maybe strain from doing first weight workout yesterday) and couldn't do my scheduled run. I tried, got up at 6 and even walked to try to loosen up. First step hurt, so walked back home and drove to the gym. I did another 200m.

Question: since oxygen deficiency i smy biggest problem starting out, this morning I tried to swim proper first two laps (50m) and then just started swimming on top of the water. I know this is very inefficient, but at least I am doing the strokes and getting the body used to it. I also do breast or backstroke when start breathing too hard. Question is, should I do this or take longer breaks between intervals and try to always swim correctly (well, as correctly as I am currently able to :-) )

Thanks for the encouragement Dan and Michael. Trilover, I had to laugh when you said start with 200m easy warmup. I am now only doing 4X50m :-) Pretty funny that I can do a half marathon but not swim 50m without starting to breathe heavy.

TripleThreat, I will try a longer swim once I start to feel a little comfortable. Thanks for the idea. I think my Polar came with PC Coach, but never looked at it too much. Will take a look.


Thanks again everyone for the encouragement and ideas.

I would think swimming correctly with more rest would work best. That way you aren't starting bad habits. It seems to take a while of swimming 10x25's and you feel you aren't getting anywhere then one day you just do a 50. Then you start to warm up with 50's and next thing you know you are doing 100's ect. I almost felt like I was wasting time when I started going. It would take me longer to drive there, get in the pool, get out of the pool, change and drive home than it did to swim for 20 min's. However, now I am in the pool and feeling like I am getting something out of it. The one thing I disliked was that swimming in the morning at the local HS all the lanes are filled by 5:30am when it opens and I was getting there around 5:45. Sharing a lane is very uncomfortable expecially with the swimmers who are there who never ever stop. I felt like I was in the way. But then a couple people at different times told me I could share there lane anytime and also told me who to stay away from. It was weird but at that point I felt pretty comfortable going.
So I think form and swimming correctly is more important than distance at this time. I haven't read all of the TI book yet but I do know it says in there that endurance/fitness will come but stresses the drills more than swimming laps.

Thanks Rio. I hadn't thought of doing 25m's for some reason. The second half of the 50m's is what does me in now. I will start trying 10X25m until feel comfortable watching form. I have the TI book too, but haven't had time to look at it yet. In the other books, they gave some general tips on swimming that I try to concentrate on until my lungs explode :-)

About breathing: I had always taken a breath on every stroke, and a few months ago started practicing bilateral breathing. I too often felt that I wsas not getting enough air, so have recently started to do two breaths on each side. This has helped me tremendously. I feel that by doing this I can become more comfortable breathing on my non-side (for me the right side), and eventually be able to breath every other stroke. This technique has enabled me to breath much more often on the strange side. It does take a while to get used to that side.

Nancy

I have read all the replies to the swimming question. I have also competed in swimming at a high level for many years and coached for a while. Three observations - all addressed in some way or another in the previous posts. First - breathing every other stroke smooths out the body and keeps it lined up - very imortant to reducing drag and therefore effort. When you are really cooking that is enough once you get comfortable. Second - breathing should be a part of the swim roll so that you barely move your head to the side to get a breath. It reduces the muscle load, increases the reach and leaves less body in the water to cause drag. Third - expel all the air from your lungs. This not only leaves more air space to take in more air, it avoids trapping air in the stomach - which after a 1500 or 2000yd continuous swim can be very painful. You will gain an instant beer belly that will be very hard to belch out. One last thing, work on some distance at an easy pace until you can swim at least 1000 yds continuously. Then start the interval workouts at least every other workout and maybe a long swim every 4th or 5th workout. Speed and endurance will come with the intervals. The long swims are for working on techinque. Take advantage of good paddles to increase strength and form, especially the roll and the push under the chest. Enjoy!!

Edited by jtoplus3 2004-01-06 9:06 AM

Thanks bigpikle. I will keep at it. Jose, the intervals currently doing are not speed work, just "catch my breath" work at this point. I will incresae distance as able. Thaks for the tips.

"Jose, the intervals currently doing are not speed work, just "catch my breath" work at this point."

I would stop doing that. Here's why ... the body is very smart. it can manipulate to get what it wants. The body wants to stop. So, if the body knows you will stop when it gets "out of breath", it certainly won't improve its efficiency.

But, if you "swim through it", your body will realize it had better get more efficient or there's going to be trouble.

Think if you stopped running everytime, it "got hard", or if you stopped cycling every time your legs "burned".

The sooner you get comfortable being uncomfortable, the better it will be.

---------------------------------------------------
At slowtwitch.com, I asked a question about the best way to increase swimming distance ... alternating strokes, intervals w/ shorter rests, adding distance each week ... and at the end as a half-assed alternative I said "have someone drop you in the middle of a lake and you have to swim to shore".

Honestly, I'm thinking the last option is the best. For me, I was capable of swimming much further than I was giving myself credit for. I was stopping anytime I became uncomfortable. Once you stop (quit), it makes future stopping (quitting) occurances much easier to justify.

Really, when you look at triathloning, the person that is able to tolerate the greatest amount of discomfort (discomfort does not mean pain or injury) ... wins.

Once the mental barriers are cleared, the body takes off.

I (if I were you) would try to swim 500m continuous. For me the hardest laps were between 100-250m. Once you get past the midpoint, it's easy. 400m-500m were the easiest 100m of the swim.

I would try it, with the realization that if you have to, you can roll on your back and catch your breath, or even do side storke for a bit.

Edited by TripleThreat 2004-01-06 9:35 AM

TripleThreat, I am currently doing the intervals similar to walk breaks in running. It's to get the heart rate and breathing down. I have no muscle pain or soreness at all. I see what you are talking about by increasing distance and will increase distance as soon as get a little comfortable. I guess I am torn between doing the intervals and being able to concentrate on form and breathing more than long distance and form will go out the window over half of it.

I do appreciate everyone's input!

I'll add in the greatest thing for me is to (as they say in total immersion) "swim silently".

I find that if focus on not making a splash ... anywhere, that my form, and breathing and everything else go right in line. The hand entry, the reach, the rotation, the kicks, the recovery, etc. Everything flows together when i simply concentrate on "swimming in silence".

If I don't it seems there are too many other things to think about.

Intervals does not mean speed work. What you need to do is set a rest period of 10 - 20 seconds between esch interval. It is the equivalent of a long swim but the 10- 20 second rest allow the body to recover enough so that form doesn't go all to pieces. Think of it as the walk/run program of swimming. Once you can swim 400 meters with a 10 secone catch-breath break and then do another 400 meters you will find you can just as well do 800 meters without stopping. It won't take long to increase distance if you use the interval method to increase distance not speed. Speed intervals will be more effective when you can do a 1500 - 2000 meter swim non-stop and the only thing keeping you from going for 4000 non-stop meters is lack of time.

Cameron,

Swimming is defininitely a "feel" sport. That's why people always talk about "feel for the water." Therefore, the more you can get in the water, the greater your feel will become. Within a couple of weeks of swimming you will adapt and start to feel more comforatable in the water. If you are feeling winded, just work on drills- technique is the most important part of swimming anyway! If you need some ideas, check out my website!

Good luck,
Kevin
www.triswimcoach.com

hey jtoplus3, that is what I was trying to say in my previous post :-) I'm not doing speed work, I'm catching my breath Same as I did when started running.

Thanks triswimcoach, I will take a look at your site. I need to read the TI book too!

Hey TripleThreat, I tried your recommendation today. I went to the gym this afternoon and realized I forgot my weight clothes and gloves, so decided to have a longer swim workout. I started reading Total Immersion this weekend and started out working on lesson 1. I was just doing 25m laps since kicking across the pool took a while :-) Then I started doing freestyle laps of 25m to work on rolling and breathing. After 10 laps, I said "I'm going to do 200m straight"! Well, I did without dying. I did do back or breast stroke every other 25m, but better than before. And I never once felt out of breath like last week. I felt pretty good with the lesson 1 drills. Will do them again next time until feel natural with it.

Also, from reading TI, while freestyling, I was able to notice things I read in the book. For instance my legs dropping sometimes and rolling to breathe!

Question though, do you get seasick with all the rolling? MAybe I was exagerating the roll, but I could see where someone could get sea sick :-)

LOL Cameronw.

I have a buddy that tried the TI stuff and he said the rolling was killing him. "What am I a torpedo?" he said. He was rolling too fast, as if he was being thrased about in the ocean.

It's a definite rotation, but it's smooth and controlled. The best way I can explain it is to think of pushing your armpit toward the floor of the pool. This accomplsihes two things, [1] initiates the reach, and [2] initiates the roll.

I definately roll on my side. Not "almost on my back" like some do, but definately on my side. The rotation feels more like a reach than a "roll".

Picturing someone rolling really fast as if they were going down a large water slide is just cracking me up.

I've been converted to do the drills from the beginning rather than waiting for my aerobic fitness to get better. I will do each lesson as specified feeling natural before moving on to the next one. Thanks for your earlier posts.

I was doubtful that drills could lead to good swimming until I read an article by a guy that did an Ironman (quite well in an Ironman actually), without ever swimmming anything but drill sets.

I gave them a try. Drill sets are actually harder (i.e. slower and more concentrated) than swimming. But, when you go to swimming, the swimming will seem much easier.

I highly recommend catch up for the stroke, and kick only with rotation for breathing to improve rotation, and silent swim for everything. Silent swim is it, IMO.

I'm not sure what those two drills are. I am just following the book now. Lesson 1 has 3 drills.
1. swim face down with arms at side only using legs to kick and pressing your chest down to bring hips and legs up. Bring chin up to breathe
2. swim on back, arms at side, only kicking pressing back of head and upper spine down and staying straight.
3. same as 1, but when breathe, roll onto back, but not moving head until shoulder almost hits chin.

I can still feel the cool breathing 2 hours later. Kind of like running. I always feel like breathing fresh mountain air for 1-3 hours afterwards!