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2018-08-16 9:37 AM

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Champion
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Subject: Paul Manafort
Time to make your predictions. Manafort has pleaded not guilty to 18 counts lodged by Mueller's team.

Subscribing to false income tax returns
Number of counts: 5
Maximum prison sentence per count: 3 years

Failing to file foreign bank account reports
Number of counts: 4
Maximum prison sentence per count: 5 years

Number of counts: 4 counts of bank fraud; 5 counts of bank fraud conspiracy
Maximum prison sentence per count: 30 years

Manafort is 69 years old. My prediction is he will die in prison.....if Trump does not pardon him.

I am doubtful they will find him guilty of all 18 counts but they might - the jury pool came from an area where Hillary won with like 90% of the vote. But you never know what a jury will do. The prosecution has to convince all 12 jurors he is guilty. The defense only needs 1 person to get a mistrial.

I may be wrong on my prediction....I would have bet the farm OJ was going to jail for life. They found is DNA on the knife and her DNA in his car and at his house.....but 'if the glove don't fit, you gots to acquit'.



2018-08-16 11:09 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Paul Manafort

Originally posted by Rogillio Time to make your predictions. Manafort has pleaded not guilty to 18 counts lodged by Mueller's team. Subscribing to false income tax returns Number of counts: 5 Maximum prison sentence per count: 3 years

50/50 that he's convicted on one or more.  Gates admitted to embezzling money from Manafort, so it may be hard to justify "intent"  given he couldn't submit correct returns.  

Failing to file foreign bank account reports Number of counts: 4 Maximum prison sentence per count: 5 years Number of counts:

20%.   Based on the limited internet reading, they made a lot of claims that money came out of these accounts, but no evidence that he "owned" them.  Kinda like giving your child a credit card on your account...who "owns" the account?  

4 counts of bank fraud; 5 counts of bank fraud conspiracy Maximum prison sentence per count: 30 years

80%, probably 2-5 years total for 1 count.  Again, from the limited reading, he leveraged "personal relationships" with the bank president but that isn't directly "FRAUD."  

Manafort is 69 years old. My prediction is he will die in prison.....if Trump does not pardon him. I am doubtful they will find him guilty of all 18 counts but they might - the jury pool came from an area where Hillary won with like 90% of the vote. But you never know what a jury will do. The prosecution has to convince all 12 jurors he is guilty. The defense only needs 1 person to get a mistrial. I may be wrong on my prediction....I would have bet the farm OJ was going to jail for life. They found is DNA on the knife and her DNA in his car and at his house.....but 'if the glove don't fit, you gots to acquit'.

Good chance he'll spend a few years in prison but not die there.  I doubt he'll get an immediate pardon from Trump.  

2018-08-23 11:50 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Buttercup
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Subject: RE: Paul Manafort

I think we all agree that if someone had written a novel describing all these outrageous shenanigans, 50 editors would have said "Too ridiculous, too implausible, too far-fetched, stretches the imagination, needs more realism."

If Donald pardons Paul, Donald may find that Congress may feel obliged to initiate impeachment proceedings for obstruction of justice. Maybe.

It would surprise me if Manafort cooperates with Mueller and his prosecutors. He's probably more terrified that his Russian overlords will assassinate his family if he spilled the beans. I wouldn't be surprised if he's killed in prison; dead men can't talk. That is Donald's best hope.

What a way to spend your twilight years, all because you can't stop binge shopping or keeping expensive mistresses.

2018-08-23 12:06 PM
in reply to: 0

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Champion
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Alabama
Subject: RE: Paul Manafort
Originally posted by Renee

I think we all agree that if someone had written a novel describing all these outrageous shenanigans, 50 editors would have said "Too ridiculous, too implausible, too far-fetched, stretches the imagination, needs more realism."

If Donald pardons Paul, Donald may find that Congress may feel obliged to initiate impeachment proceedings for obstruction of justice. Maybe.

It would surprise me if Manafort cooperates with Mueller and his prosecutors. He's probably more terrified that his Russian overlords will assassinate his family if he spilled the beans. I wouldn't be surprised if he's killed in prison; dead men can't talk. That is Donald's best hope.

What a way to spend your twilight years, all because you can't stop binge shopping or keeping expensive mistresses.




He is Italian....he won't 'flip'.

It is my understanding that the president cannot pardon someone convicted in state crimes only federal one. If Manafort is guilty of federal tax evasion he would also be guilty of state tax evasion. So while it is fun to talk about Trump pardoning him but it seems moot. First off, Manafort does NOT want to go to state prison. Federal prison for white collar workers is like summer camp. If he gets a pardon on the federal charges he would likely end up in a state penitentiary....and he does NOT want to go there! His best bet is to resign himself to living out the balance of his years in federal prison.....write his memoirs and make a few million since he has lived such a 'colorful' life....sell this story to Hollywood so they can make a movie

Edited by Rogillio 2018-08-23 12:07 PM
2018-08-23 12:21 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Buttercup
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Subject: RE: Paul Manafort

Yes, Cohen, too, is at risk of being prosecuted by the State of New York. Donald's pardon won't ultimately help either of them. Donald seems to operate out of caprice, so he'd probably do it just to create more chaos and drama.

(Pretty sure Italian mafia flip on each other, btw)

2018-08-23 12:54 PM
in reply to: 0

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Champion
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Alabama
Subject: RE: Paul Manafort
Originally posted by Renee

Yes, Cohen, too, is at risk of being prosecuted by the State of New York. Donald's pardon won't ultimately help either of them. Donald seems to operate out of caprice, so he'd probably do it just to create more chaos and drama.

(Pretty sure Italian mafia flip on each other, btw)




True on both points.

I was listening to Rush on the radio today....he is totally unbiased. ;-) Anyway, he seems to think there is no way Trump is guilty of violating campaign finance laws. He read the law and I have to agree with him. He said the law specifically says if the 'hush money' could be of value above and beyond the election, it is legal. Doesn't matter if he gave the money or if Cohen gave the money. Clearly the hush money would prevent his wife and family from finding out. So there is the benefit above and beyond the election. I've also read that "if campaign money was used" it is a violation. Problem with that is, Trump gave upwards of $10 million to his own campaign so it was Trumps money. Worst he could be guilty of is failing to report that but he would not have had to report it until like a month or so later...and since this was 2 weeks before the election, he was not required to report it prior to the election. This would result in a fine....a fine against the campaign, not against Trump.

Trump also pointed out that Campaign Finance rules were written by politicians and so written it such a way as to give plenty of wiggle room and flexibility to the politicians.

ETA

Love your posts as I usually learn a new work or two. Had to look up "caprice". I always thought that was a type of car. I agree he tends to thrive on adversity....so he might do it just to prove he can.....so flock with the media like playing with a cat with a laser pointer.

Edited by Rogillio 2018-08-23 12:57 PM


2018-08-23 2:14 PM
in reply to: 0

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Buttercup
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Subject: RE: Paul Manafort

I can think of no reason why I would consider Rush's analysis on any matter.

I also don't listen to any of the infotainment moderators and pundits; it's so rare that I hear sober, careful analysis. Many of the pundits throw words around carelessly (like treason) and I don't think it provides much value to audiences. More wrestle mania.

I prefer to read actual attorneys' interpretation of the law and context. Here are more lawfare excerpts (full article here):

The president’s former lawyer has not only confessed to criminal campaign finance violations, but he has also said under oath that he was doing so at the direction of the president himself. It’s hard to say yet what precisely this means. But it is not a small thing. Setting aside the question of whether Cohen will cooperate with Mueller, it remains to be seen whether prosecutors will pursue additional criminal charges against individuals mentioned but not charged in the criminal information ...

Among the counts to which the president’s former lawyer pleaded guilty are two violations of federal election law: “causing an unlawful corporate contribution,” regarding Cohen’s role in silencing Karen McDougal’s story of an affair with Trump by persuading her to sell the rights to a tabloid that then quashed the story; and “excessive campaign contribution,” regarding Cohen’s payment to Stormy Daniels as part of a hush agreement, for which he was then reimbursed by the Trump Organization.

The criminal information made public Tuesday states that Cohen “caused and made the payments ... in order to influence the 2016 presidential election”—that is, to prevent damaging information about the affairs from surfacing during the campaign. It is the political motive behind the payments that transforms the matter into a question of federal campaign finance law. As former White House counsel Bob Bauer wrote of the Cohen case Tuesday evening, legal constraints on such expenditures are implicated when “motivation[s] materially if not wholly shaped by political objectives” come into play.

The criminal information is not clear on the extent of any coordination between Cohen and Trump personally, though it does state that Cohen “coordinated with one or more members of the campaign, including through meetings and phone calls, about the fact, nature, and timing of the payments.” But in his court hearing Tuesday, Cohen accused Trump of personal involvement in both arrangements in all but name, saying that he acted “in coordination with, and at the direction of, a candidate for federal office.”

At the end of the day, what matters isn't the plethora of analyses or careless speculation, but rather what can be proven in court and how the law is interpreted in court.

BTW, thanks for all your generous, personal remarks. I haven't done this kind of commenting in years. It's nice to flesh out my own thoughts.



Edited by Renee 2018-08-23 2:15 PM
2018-08-23 2:54 PM
in reply to: Renee

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Champion
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500050001002525
Alabama
Subject: RE: Paul Manafort
Originally posted by Renee

I can think of no reason why I would consider Rush's analysis on any matter.

I also don't listen to any of the infotainment moderators and pundits; it's so rare that I hear sober, careful analysis. Many of the pundits throw words around carelessly (like treason) and I don't think it provides much value to audiences. More wrestle mania.

I prefer to read actual attorneys' interpretation of the law and context. Here are more lawfare excerpts (full article here):

The president’s former lawyer has not only confessed to criminal campaign finance violations, but he has also said under oath that he was doing so at the direction of the president himself. It’s hard to say yet what precisely this means. But it is not a small thing. Setting aside the question of whether Cohen will cooperate with Mueller, it remains to be seen whether prosecutors will pursue additional criminal charges against individuals mentioned but not charged in the criminal information ...

Among the counts to which the president’s former lawyer pleaded guilty are two violations of federal election law: “causing an unlawful corporate contribution,” regarding Cohen’s role in silencing Karen McDougal’s story of an affair with Trump by persuading her to sell the rights to a tabloid that then quashed the story; and “excessive campaign contribution,” regarding Cohen’s payment to Stormy Daniels as part of a hush agreement, for which he was then reimbursed by the Trump Organization.

The criminal information made public Tuesday states that Cohen “caused and made the payments ... in order to influence the 2016 presidential election”—that is, to prevent damaging information about the affairs from surfacing during the campaign. It is the political motive behind the payments that transforms the matter into a question of federal campaign finance law. As former White House counsel Bob Bauer wrote of the Cohen case Tuesday evening, legal constraints on such expenditures are implicated when “motivation[s] materially if not wholly shaped by political objectives” come into play.

The criminal information is not clear on the extent of any coordination between Cohen and Trump personally, though it does state that Cohen “coordinated with one or more members of the campaign, including through meetings and phone calls, about the fact, nature, and timing of the payments.” But in his court hearing Tuesday, Cohen accused Trump of personal involvement in both arrangements in all but name, saying that he acted “in coordination with, and at the direction of, a candidate for federal office.”

At the end of the day, what matters isn't the plethora of analyses or careless speculation, but rather what can be proven in court and how the law is interpreted in court.

BTW, thanks for all your generous, personal remarks. I haven't done this kind of commenting in years. It's nice to flesh out my own thoughts.




RE Rush.....it's all good. I listen to everyone. That in no way shape or form means I agree with them. I occasionally watch Rachel Madow and several of the talking heads on CNN. I find it fascinating how Laura Ingram and John Trapper can report on the same topic and spin it in diametrically opposed directions. Anyway, I love hearing people opine on the latest political 'development' and revelations.

I do put a lot of stock in a lot of stock in Alan M. Dershowitz, Professor of Law, Emeritus, at Harvard Law School. He recently wrote:

"As a civil libertarian who voted and campaigned for, and contributed to, Hillary Clinton, I am critical as well of efforts to stretch these laws so as to target a president against whom I voted."

He also wrote:

"I have been teaching and practicing criminal law for more than a half century, and yet, I have to acknowledge that I am having difficulty understanding the laws as they relate to the allegations made by Cohen against President Trump."

So if this guy with 50 years of practicing criminal law is having a hard time understanding the laws and the applicability to Cohen/Trump I take everything I hear coming out of the media with a grain....no, a cup of salt! The media has been all over this like a duck on a junebug just giddy with delight that they are finally about to sink Trump. They are all over cable news hyperventilating about impeachment. It makes for good television and click-bait but I'm just not seeing it. There is no way in hail the GOP Congress is going to impeach Trump. If dems take the House they could conceivable find enough votes to impeach Trump....but unless they flip the Senate too the too, the Senate would acquit him.

Dems would need an iron clad case to impeach....I think they are actually hurting their credibility RE impeachment by calling for impeachment before any 'high crimes or misdemeanors' have been found. Heck, they called for his impeachment the day after he was sworn in. Let's just impeach him.....we'll think of a reason later. Kinda sounds like Comey, let's exonerate Hillary before we investigate her.




2018-08-23 3:00 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Buttercup
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Subject: RE: Paul Manafort

I gotta run, we have dinner plans.  But just saw this:

Trump sought his lawyers’ advice weeks ago on possibility of pardoning Manafort but they counseled against it, Giuliani says

Link

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