Serious running issues

How are you running? ie. hitting the ground first with toes, mid foot or heels? I used to have severe tightness and discomfort in my calves while running...for me it essentially came down to flexibility issues with my achilles. I went to go see a sports med doc about it when I was swimming competitively and she was amazed that I was able to walk around in flats because my dorsiflexion was so poor that she had to lean on my feet to get me to "neutral". I found that stretching (yoga, calve specific stretching before and after running (ie. standing on ledges with heels off, standing backwards on an inclined plane) and focusing on hitting the ground with my mid foot helped to prevent pain and tightness while running for me.

Edited by mndymond 2009-07-27 10:47 PM

Well it doesn't feel as if i'm striking my heel at all.  It does feel like i'm hitting the ground midfoot with each stride.

I had the new balance 768's before, and they were great.  I got fitted for them because i have flat feet and i pronate.  WHen the cushon ran out on those i did some research and found the 903's because they were very light, and they had all the arch/pronation support the 768's had.  I noticed the sole is much softer, which may mean the arch support it has is less effective over a harder soled shoe.

I looked up on the internet, and though i feel some symptoms related to posterior shin splints, plantar faceitous, and mid calf pain, (http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_5/196.shtml) i don't feel as if those conditions fit exactly what i have.

I'm thinking my next shoes may not be NB's... i dunno, but i'm gonna be pissed if these 100 dollar stability shoes aren't "stable" enough for my feet.  Oh, btw, i picked up the 903's last april.  I doubt i have worn out the sole yet.

I have had some odd ongoing issues with having very tight lower legs and at times it has been painful. I have said it was tight calves... but it's not really my calves. It's tightness from below my calf and down to my Achilles tendon. It's odd.

I have also delt with a very small part on the inside of both lower legs, right above the ankle being painful.

I went to ART... I went to a running coach for 6 months (stopped running and learned how to run again with a forefoot strike)... NOTHING helped this pain.

It just went away on it's own, in time. I just had to deal with it and keep running through it.

I simply brought this up because maybe you are having similar kind of pain?

I too have been dealing with this same thing this season - it is odd. It's definitely not in my achilles, but I'm having no luck really identifying it.  I too have focused on a mid/fore foot strike lately, and that seems to help.  I tried taking some time off, but that made no difference.  I'm having the best results keeping it tame by doing some gentle calf stetches throughout the day, and before/after running - that has worked pretty well for me. 

Cheers, Chris

have you upped your distances too quickly??

are you over 40 y/o?   there was an article that was talking about runners over 40 and how they get tight lower legs, that there isn't much you can do

how hydrated are you?? when I don't drink enough water and too many dt dews, I can feel it in my lower legs before I even start running..

are you wearing decent shoes for the rest of the day??  certain dress shoes kill my calfs/ankles the day after a run, very low heels it seems

sometimes it's the stuff you are doing when you are not running that is the problem

I also suspect your shoes may be the issue.  Don't know how much you are running but 4 months at 20miles/week would be over 300 miles which could mean your lightweight shoes are worn out. You may want to get a more cushioned shoe for your recovery/long runs and save the lightweight shoe for your speedwork/races.

I second the advice to get fitted for some new shoes. (Go to a running specialty store on a weekday when the owner is there as opposed to evening/weekend where you are more likely dealing with a student employee just there earning money to pay for his shoes)

Sounds like several things could be contributing to your problem. The NB903 is not really a shoe to use for all your running. It's better suited for just doing faster paced workouts maybe once a week or racing. They do have some support, but maybe not enough if you are a bigger person. It also sounds like you don't typically stretch after all your runs and over time you have gotten very tight. It's not possible to tell if you've ramped up too quickly either. If you've extended the length of your runs significantly in a short period it could be that your muscles haven't adapted to the new stresses.

Well i don't run nearly 20 miles a week.  In fact, its more than likely 10 miles a week at the most (atleast during the summer months).  In my 768's, i noticed when my soles were worn because my feet would turn numb, all the way up to my knees.  I also never felt calf pain with my previous 768's.

You guys are probably right about hte 903 being best reserved for a speedwork/race shoe. But i'm not sure how comfortable i would be having 2 different running shoes.  The difference in the support may throw me off for a race.  What brands/models would you guys reccomend as my next shoe for someone who requires lots of arch support (pronation as well).

I did get fitted for my 768's, but i figured that the 903's would work just as well since they have the same support features.  I don't feel as if the simple increase in mileage is causing this.  If it was an increase in milage that was doing it, i'm fairly positive i would feel pain in my upper legs, which i don't.  My thighs don't even get sore anymore from doing speedwork.

Hydration and electolytes i don't think are an issue.  I always drink a gatorade before every workout, and run with a camel back.

If you're only running 10 miles/week at most, then that's part of the problem. A 5 mile run would be 50% of your weekly volume and almost any time a single run is such a high percentage there can be issues.

Although the shoes can be part of the problem, you're really not running enough. In order to run decently in an oly you should be running a minimum of 20 miles/week. It sounds like the biggest issue is simply a lack of adequate volume. You've probably been doing runs of 2-3 miles at most. Now that you're trying to run 3-5 miles it's a big jump. You might be better served just building your volume for a few months by keeping the runs short and adding more days. 2 miles/day for 5 days to start, then slowly increase to 3 miles day, then move up to 4, etc. It can be a slow process that takes several months. Once you get up to 20 miles/week you can adjust some runs down and make one longer, maybe like 4,3,4,3,6.

If you are only running 10 miles / week why are you even doing speedwork?  I'd say you don't have enough base/recovery miles to support doing speedwork.   Also the midsole/cushioning of your shoes will be worn out well before there is visible wear on the outsole of your shoe.  Again I think these lightweight shoes are not right for your everyyday training  and are possibly worn out if you've been using them for all of your running.  This kind of shoes has a short life expectancy.

 I think you should visit a good running store and talk to someone about your training and your issues.

I would have my gait and footstrike analyzed by somebody who a pro at doing so. Most cities have somebody like a podiatrist who specializes in runners. I would not continue to run or IMO, you are at great risk of this turning into some type of chronic issue that will be much more difficult to solve.

This has been bothering me all night.

No, your body cannot handle more than that. At all. According to your original post, your body cannot handle anything over three miles. Figure that out before you worry about how far you can run. Right now you should definitely NOT be trying to run any farther than three miles. Try cutting back your per-run mileage to something your body can handle and run it more often.

hey funkyd:

i just posted this in another thread about running, and i've added some stuff at the bottom as well:

couple of posture questions:

do your arms cross the midline on your stride? that will put tension on your core as well as tire out your arms. They should not be moving laterally at all when you stride.

how tense are your arms? are they bent at <90 degrees at the elbow and loose on the stride, or are they in a death grip and overextended at the elbow?

Are you broken at the waist, or is there a straight line from the top of your head to your coccyx? Breaking at the waist will throw everything else off, and your arms might try to compensate to keep you in balance.

Do you do any upper body strength work? You might benefit from hitting the weights now and then, not necessarily at 'roid 'rage intensity.

How much tension are you carrying in your platysma (muscle in the front of the neck right under the skin) and trapezius? If someone saw your face, would they think you're taking a big ole poo? Being really tight in the platysma/traps will also put stress on your arms.

Are your hips balanced when you hit the ground, or are you favoring one side more than the other? again, weird postures/movements will put stress everywhere b/c your body will try to compensate for unnatural movements.

Are you landing on the ball of your feet, heel slightly kissing the ground only for a split second, or are you landing on your heels with the leg fully extended? The latter will lead to all kinds of injuries all over your body.

Specifically for your foot pain, how old are your running shoes? are you changing shoes every ~6 months?

How loose are your ankles as they come off the ground? Your feet should be loose and comfortable as you are moving them off the ground. If you are overpowering on the stride, your calves will take a hit. If you are taking too long on the ground when you stride, your calves will take a hit.

Are you pulling your striding foot off the ground with your hamstring, or are you powering everything through with your quads and psoas muscles? The latter will lead to calf exhaustion.

Try this drill: stand with your back to a wall, about 2-3 inches away from the wall. head and arms up in normal running position. One leg at a time, pick your foot off teh ground, pulling with the hamstring until your knee is in front of you and your foot has LOOSELY come up and slightly touched your butt, with NO PRESSURE OR TENSION at the ankle. When your foot is up, you should look like a figure four, with the leg being pulled up by the hamstring, knee in front of you, bottom leg nice and loose and relaxed. Then you bring the leg back down, lightly touching down, then VERY QUICKLY coming right back up. Do x10 on each side. If you can, do this on grass, and look at the grass once you are done: did you leave barely a mark on the ground, or did you land and push so violently that you tore up the grass beneath you? You should be landing nice and easy on the ground, most of your weight on the ball of your foot, heel LIGHTLY kissing the ground for only a split second. If you are destroying the grass underneath you, you are landing way too hard on the ground and you are on your way to an injury.

This is terrible form. He's landing on his heel, putting pressure all over his body. Landing so poorly, he will have to use his quads and psoas muscles to power his lower foot through the stride, which will put stress on his calves and on the bottom of the feet, which will lead to quad pain, shin splints (from the calves cramping up and contracting hard in recovery), and plantar fasciitis.


Edited by gabe.pitta 2009-07-29 11:27 AM

This is how you want to look. He landed on the ball of his foot, and there's a slight kiss of the heel to the ground. He is using his hamstring to pull his left leg up, notice that his knee is also coming forward. He is not broken at the waist, he is ramrod-straight through his core, with a slight forward lean.

I guess I'll be the one to say it...

I think that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with striking on your heel.  The problem with this guy



is not that he is striking on his heel (assuming that the pic shows the point of impact on his left leg -- if he is airborn at this moment, then all bets are off as to whether his form is problematic).  The problem is that he is striking way out in front of his center of gravity.

The good thing about this guy



is not that he is striking on the ball of his foot but that he is striking underneath his c.o.g. (assuming that the pic shows him a moment after impact and assuming that he did indeed strike forefoot -- and if this is the moment of impact, then he is striking well behind his c.o.g., which is a problem I've seen in some people who try to follow the 'pose' method).

Just my 2c -- I'm not an expert, just an interested bystander.

Hey Michael,
You are absolutely right about the center of gravity comparisons.....i should have mentioned that. They are very important. Yeah, as i got into Pose running, i definitely had a struggle with keeping my center of gravity in front of me. Correcting that problem led to better efficiency on my run.

With the heel strikes, it makes your stride less efficient, because striking at the heel is causing your body to slow down with each stride. If you are going too fast, what's one of the ways that the body instinctively brakes? By whipping out the feet, heels first, with legs extended. If this is part of your running stride, you will lose efficiency and engage muscles that will lead to getting too tired.

Here's what I believe, in order of confidence:

1.  This (the bolded part) is true if you are striking out in front of your c.o.g..  And in that case it would be true whether you strike heel, forefoot, or toe, unless you are also pulling back your foot at the moment of impact.  The braking effect has nothing to do with which part of your anatomy hits the ground first, but with Newton's Third Law.  I think it is now well known that -- as far as the best studies can discern -- even most elite distance runners are heel-strikers in the sense of "heel hitting first" (NOT in the sense of "overstriding", i.e., striking out in front of c.o.g.).    See an original article here, and a discussion of it here.  A summary of earlier research (more or less drawing the same conclusion on this point, but covering lots of other biomechanical aspects of running as well) that I find interesting is here.

2.  I have come to believe that the recommendations of POSE running (and CHI running) work for some people for the same reason that certain swimming drills have worked for me (and presumably others as well) -- it is so difficult to change one's form, that you have to attempt to exaggerate in the other direction just to get to the proper form.  You don't REALLY want your c.o.g. to be 'out in front of you' if that means that you are striking behind your c.o.g..  Nor do you REALLY want to be 'falling forward' as I've seen it described.  But maybe thinking in these terms gets one into good form?  Maybe if one is overstriding, then running upright and striking under one's c.o.g. feels like striking behind you and falling forward?

For a while now I've had some good days and some bad days when I run.  Today I figured out it was my shoes.  I have two pair that I wear.  I finally realized the one pair of shoes really exaggerates my natural stride.

I went to a running shop and they confirmed what I thought, I needed a motion control shoe.  (Actually I'm between a motion and a stabilizer, but more toward the motion)

My guess is when you are running up hill it changes your stride in a way that makes you more comfortable.  Go somewhere that specializes in running shoes and let them look at your stride and make some suggestions.