The greatest country in the world!!! ... against which I need to defend myself.

For me I am an R and I do own guns and I would rather live in here than any other place in the world because of things like the 2A. We have rules set in place like our bill of rights that make me want to stay here.

So you are saying you think that people that use their 1A and 2A rights to say they will fight to keep the rights are contradicting themselves?

You do realize 30% of Dems own guns right?

Seems your mind is made up. Not really sure what the point is. Feel free not to exercise your rights, but don't take them from me, or mock me for doing it.

I think that those who, out of one side of their mouth, say they need to utilize weapons for such a fight while out of the other side of their mouth saying that which against they need to fight is the greatest country in the world, is a contradiction.

So if you rank the USA on a scale of 1-10, and give it a 5.... then think everyother country is lower... does that not mean that indeed you think the country is the best...yet has some serious problems keeping it from a 10?

I'm just looking to understand this contradiction. If you can point me to the place in my post where I said anything about taking guns from people, I'd be interested to see that. This thread isn't about taking guns away from people. I just don't get it.

You mean the small % that is in the media? So I can judge all the D's by the ones I see on Fox news?

I respect you Tea but in this subject you seem to be locked in so it seems less a discussion and more of you venting which is fine but I doubt you really want any answers.

It does.

Although, it doesn't explain the level of jingoism I see from some folks. If all these people truly rated the USA as a 5, I'd expect to see more people holding up signs with "MEH" colored red, white, and blue.

I don't know what the % is. And that's not the point. Whatever the % is, whether it's 1 or 10 or 50, I just don't get it.

Powerman gave a decent answer with his 5 out of 10 post.

Exactly what sense do you expect to get from the extremes of the spectrum? I could trot out plenty of left wing extremists that do indeed want to ban all guns, then think the government should control everything, and would love to put an end to capitalism and actually redistribute wealth. But what would the point be?

I think you are painting with abroad brush and are picking nits out of context. there are many PRO gun people right now that do not feel we are the greatest and indeed have strayed far from the path. They actually feel the liberals are taking over and destroying the country... but again, extremists on the other side of the spectrum.

I think having the ability often eliminates the need for the fight.

Maybe I'm not understaning what point you are trying to make though. ?!?

JC in Cinci - 2013-02-07 9:31 AM

If all these people truly rated the USA as a 5, I'd expect to see more people holding up signs with "MEH" colored red, white, and blue.

You don't see it because no one with a "MEH" attitude is going to take the time to make a sign, much less stand around holding it up. Otherwise I'd be standing around with a sign that says "NBA - Meh" JC

Haha. Good point.

I've never really understood this sort of self-loathing.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think this country is the greatest in the world - flaws and all.  I certainly wouldn't begrudge, or even disagree with anyone who felt their country was the greatest in the world.

Without more detail, I think you are misusing the term jingoistic.

I think you pose an seeming contradiction, a challenge to gun rights advocates to explain themselves.  It comes under the general heading of baiting an opponent.  Even I, as an advocate of reducing gun rights substantially, see the point of guns rights activitists to preserve a freedom which they currently have to possess deadly force of a gun, as something that they do for love of country.  It is not a contradiction to say way they do not want the law and Constitution to be changed.

However, I think we are changing as a country.  Having a legal right to own a gun is not a clear advantage to a society.  I can see both sides to this issue but we may collectively be realizing that the negatives outweigh the positives. It is likely that Democrats are more in favor of greater restriction.  That does not make them more or less patriotic or more or less "small d" democratic.  It is a view of what is best for the nation collectively.  When that view is a majority in the Congress, the laws will be changed. With an overwhelming majority in the country, the Constitution can be changed.  I will advocate for that when I can do so effectively

The advantage of making assault weapons illegal is that it makes simple possession of such weapon a crime.  Someone who takes the initiative to acquire one can be arrested for that rather than waiting for them to actually kill or threaten someone.  It increases both the time and planning required to carry out a mass murder.  These obstacles to acquiring the assault style weapon would have have  significantly increased the likelihood that the recent mass murderers could have been stopped before lives were lost.

I am a moderate politically and a gun owner.  I have inherited the guns acquired in my family for four generations. I have shot skeet with some of the legends of the sport.  It was the activity I shared with my father.  But I am in favor of a significant reduction in the Second Amendment rights.  The position I favor is growing and is becoming mainstream and a majority.  Those favoring unlimited gun ownership is diminishing.  I am hoping for a lobbying effort equal and opposite to the NRA to develop.  I will support it.

TW 

Selfishness?  

As in...  It's the greatest country in the world for me, but there are poor people who are lazy, government teet sucking, criminals.  They want what I have and I'm going to defend what I've earned all by myself from them with my ballot, my firearm, and the gates in my subdivision.

I'm just as guilty as any cowboy up firearm fanatic and I hate guns and I'm a raging liberal.  I may not be as concerned that some banger is gonna come busting through my door, but I definitely moved out and don't go to parts of the city that I deem unsafe.  I don't have to face the poverty, hunger, lack of healthcare, etc. that is rampant in this country because I've got mine and can avoid paying attention to it.  Just because I don't own a gun, doesn't mean I don't think the same way.  It's not necessarily the guns, it's the selfish attitude and failure to see that gun violence isn't the result of more guns.  On the flip side, more guns is just as ineffective a solution to problem.  

We are a successful country on many, many levels, but we do fail a large part of our population.  When we all stop fooling ourselves that we are the great and glorious model of how a country should operate and we should never change, then we can make some decisions to do something about rampant poverty and the lack of quality education that many face.    People who are well educated, can afford to feed themselves, and can go to the doctor don't shoot you for your money.  Thus, we need to take a more "we're all in this together" attitude instead of treating it as one big competition for the most awesome stuff.

It's the same attitude on both sides, just with different ways of showing it.

I once stood in the middle of a room surrounded by 7 people who had just been shot and killed by a disgruntled citizen.  The room, just before I got there, was crowded with nearly 70 people.  I know most of them.  Not one of them had a gun.  The moron who shot them was killed by the police who were lucky enough to arrive inside of a minute.

I haven't ran across every one of the people who were in that room, who I interviewed that night, since the incident occurred, but I see many of them on a regular basis.  It's fair to say that virtually all of them now carry a gun. Well, it's at least as fair as the broad strokes used in the initial post here.

If you ask them why, both democrats and republicans, they will tell you that they never again want to be in a situation where they have to hide in order to live.  Many of them called me or stopped by to ask about what gun to buy, etc.....which is how I came to ask.

Don't fool yourself.  The vast majority of guns aren't being purchased so that the owner can defend themself against our country.  If that was the case then gun purchases wouldn't skyrocket every time there is a massacre somewhere.  People are scared.  It's funny, because violent crime is at a 20 year low, but most people only know what they see on TV, or hear on the radio.....and I NEVER hear that.

You hear the 2nd Amendment and "defense against tyranny" brought up alot because nobody can argue against it.  You can try, but it hasn't held up and it won't.  But,  people aren't walking around with a gun on their hip because they think the govt. is going to get them.....believe that.

The ability to do this as a society is exactly what makes our country a model for how one should operate.

For the sake of discussion let's assume your generalizations are correct. Those that are Conservative are more likely to believe in American Exceptionalism and own firearms.

If you look at a map at the recent elections, I think it is pretty clear.

The Conservative areas of the country tend to more rural while the Liberal areas tend to be urban.

Rural areas require more self reliance, independence, personal responsibility to survive. Rural areas have less government in their lives and most would like to keep it that way. The trade off is that if someone tries to harm your family the closest cop might be 40 minutes away, so a firearm is essential for protection. In rural areas a gun is no different than a hammer. It is just another inanimate tool.

Urban population are used to relying on government for survival. Government in in every single aspect of a city dweller's life and is constantly around them. They are used to governement intervening in everyday life. So there less requirement to be self sufficient and there is the expectation that government will be there to save your tail. Urban people see government as a necessity just to function in everyday life and be productive. 

No reasonable person is terrified of government and that would be a wrong characterization of individuals that support the 2A and Conservative. Because Conservatives don't think central planning is the best direction for government does not mean Conservative are Nihilists. 

Yeah, but we've got to do something!

Ya, gun owners have nothing to worry about.

There is a way to change the Constitution, and repealing the 2A will never happen... certainly not in our lifetime. The problem with your ideas are that this is not a mob rule nation, and the "collective" does not hold the rights... the individual does.

We have the ability, but we're doing nothing about it.  Nothing real about it anyway.  We're stuck in the rut of passing and arguing toothless laws that are just responses to symptoms of the real issues.  We are failing to live up to our "greatness" in that regard.

Other than probably a fundamental disagreement regarding what the government, as opposed to society, could or should do with effectiveness, I don't really disagree.