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2010-01-27 8:25 PM
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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL
GorgeousGeorge - 2010-01-27 9:13 PM
karen26.2 - 2010-01-27 8:05 PM
GorgeousGeorge - 2010-01-27 9:02 PM
karen26.2 - 2010-01-27 7:53 PM Did we lose Rochelle?


haha, thats what I was thinking.  I think there are only 4 of us hanging around.


I know, what happened to everyone?  And why do we keep falling to page 2?  That's never a good thing.


I would say that everyone was avoiding us because we're all southerners, but that wouldn't explain YouYou's  presence.  Of course he is from another country so maybe he just doesn't know any better


Good one - you're probably right.  Let's leave him in the dark.  What he doesn't know won't hurt him.

I hope Rochelle makes her way back, I really wanted the bike HR test, and the follow up info on the HR test we did.  I have my #'s, but now what???

Maybe the 4 of us need to take a road trip and show up at her place in Mammoth.


2010-01-27 8:28 PM
in reply to: #2638823

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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL
karen26.2 - 2010-01-27 8:25 PM
GorgeousGeorge - 2010-01-27 9:13 PM
karen26.2 - 2010-01-27 8:05 PM
GorgeousGeorge - 2010-01-27 9:02 PM
karen26.2 - 2010-01-27 7:53 PM Did we lose Rochelle?


haha, thats what I was thinking.  I think there are only 4 of us hanging around.


I know, what happened to everyone?  And why do we keep falling to page 2?  That's never a good thing.


I would say that everyone was avoiding us because we're all southerners, but that wouldn't explain YouYou's  presence.  Of course he is from another country so maybe he just doesn't know any better


Good one - you're probably right.  Let's leave him in the dark.  What he doesn't know won't hurt him.

I hope Rochelle makes her way back, I really wanted the bike HR test, and the follow up info on the HR test we did.  I have my #'s, but now what???

Maybe the 4 of us need to take a road trip and show up at her place in Mammoth.


Oh Please! Can we!?  I need to get outta this place!
2010-01-27 8:39 PM
in reply to: #2638832

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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL
GorgeousGeorge - 2010-01-27 9:28 PM
karen26.2 - 2010-01-27 8:25 PM
GorgeousGeorge - 2010-01-27 9:13 PM
karen26.2 - 2010-01-27 8:05 PM
GorgeousGeorge - 2010-01-27 9:02 PM
karen26.2 - 2010-01-27 7:53 PM Did we lose Rochelle?


haha, thats what I was thinking.  I think there are only 4 of us hanging around.


I know, what happened to everyone?  And why do we keep falling to page 2?  That's never a good thing.


I would say that everyone was avoiding us because we're all southerners, but that wouldn't explain YouYou's  presence.  Of course he is from another country so maybe he just doesn't know any better


Good one - you're probably right.  Let's leave him in the dark.  What he doesn't know won't hurt him.

I hope Rochelle makes her way back, I really wanted the bike HR test, and the follow up info on the HR test we did.  I have my #'s, but now what???

Maybe the 4 of us need to take a road trip and show up at her place in Mammoth.


Oh Please! Can we!?  I need to get outta this place!


That's sad.  I have only been to Birmingham one time, for the first Mercedes marathon (in 2003??) and I actually really liked the city.  I thought it had some really cool sections and an old town feel that would be fun to live in.  I guess not so much.

I'm guessing Rochelle must be busy with her new coach and training.  We'll all have to keep this thread moving, until she finds her way back.
2010-01-27 9:09 PM
in reply to: #2638871

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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL
karen26.2 - 2010-01-27 8:39 PM
GorgeousGeorge - 2010-01-27 9:28 PM
karen26.2 - 2010-01-27 8:25 PM
GorgeousGeorge - 2010-01-27 9:13 PM
karen26.2 - 2010-01-27 8:05 PM
GorgeousGeorge - 2010-01-27 9:02 PM
karen26.2 - 2010-01-27 7:53 PM Did we lose Rochelle?


haha, thats what I was thinking.  I think there are only 4 of us hanging around.


I know, what happened to everyone?  And why do we keep falling to page 2?  That's never a good thing.


I would say that everyone was avoiding us because we're all southerners, but that wouldn't explain YouYou's  presence.  Of course he is from another country so maybe he just doesn't know any better


Good one - you're probably right.  Let's leave him in the dark.  What he doesn't know won't hurt him.

I hope Rochelle makes her way back, I really wanted the bike HR test, and the follow up info on the HR test we did.  I have my #'s, but now what???

Maybe the 4 of us need to take a road trip and show up at her place in Mammoth.


Oh Please! Can we!?  I need to get outta this place!


That's sad.  I have only been to Birmingham one time, for the first Mercedes marathon (in 2003??) and I actually really liked the city.  I thought it had some really cool sections and an old town feel that would be fun to live in.  I guess not so much.

I'm guessing Rochelle must be busy with her new coach and training.  We'll all have to keep this thread moving, until she finds her way back.


It DOES have an old town feel, and it COULD be a cool place to live but its not.  A major problem has been the leadership since the 70s.  Due to the current leadership (Oh and our mayor just went to prison on 106 felony counts of fraud, money laundering, etc.) that we are about to experience the largest municpal bankruptcy in the U.S. in history, thats right history, even larger than the Orange County, CA bankruptcy.  Its mindboggling.  Certainly doesn't leave much to be proud of.
2010-01-28 8:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL

Maybe we're the only ones that are thawed out at the moment.  Though I think that's about to change.

Know what you mean about cities with potential that fall flat on their face, Dustin.  I grew up in Jackson, MS.  It's been the model on how NOT to go about urban revitalization and economic development.  There are actually some cool things starting up right now, but it's just so painfully slow thanks our lovely city leaders.  Although, the city council meetings usually are good for some entertainment.  A fist fight actually broke out at one once.  Between city council members no less.

One more year until I'm fully vested and can take all my retirement if I leave, and one more year until my wife has her full teaching license and can go anywhere (hopefully).  Not that we're sitting on go ready to move, but it's good to have that freedom.

2010-01-28 1:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL
I'm typing this from my phone.  My computer actually started smoking last week.. it has been in the repair shop.  it looks like I have to order a new one.  I may be a little silent the next few days until I get a new computer..is pretty hard to respond on a phone.

Rochelle


2010-01-28 3:56 PM
in reply to: #2640438

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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL
wyldhair - 2010-01-28 2:22 PM I'm typing this from my phone.  My computer actually started smoking last week.. it has been in the repair shop.  it looks like I have to order a new one.  I may be a little silent the next few days until I get a new computer..is pretty hard to respond on a phone.

Rochelle


OK, we'll cut you some slack Wink because I do know how hard it is to type anything of substance on a phone.  But please hurry back, we miss you!
2010-01-28 7:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL

wyldhair - 2010-01-28 2:22 PM I'm typing this from my phone.  My computer actually started smoking last week.. it has been in the repair shop.  it looks like I have to order a new one.  I may be a little silent the next few days until I get a new computer..is pretty hard to respond on a phone.

Rochelle

 

Rochelle,

Computer + Smoke = Serious Problems.

Hope you had a backup of your files.

 

Take care

YouYou

2010-01-28 7:18 PM
in reply to: #2638800

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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL

GorgeousGeorge - 2010-01-27 9:13 PM
karen26.2 - 2010-01-27 8:05 PM
GorgeousGeorge - 2010-01-27 9:02 PM
karen26.2 - 2010-01-27 7:53 PM Did we lose Rochelle?


haha, thats what I was thinking.  I think there are only 4 of us hanging around.


I know, what happened to everyone?  And why do we keep falling to page 2?  That's never a good thing.

I would say that everyone was avoiding us because we're all southerners, but that wouldn't explain YouYou's  presence.  Of course he is from another country so maybe he just doesn't know any better :)

 

Is a person living in Maine considererd as Southener??? Andrew, what do you think about that?

Rochelle's computer turned into a toast, MaoTeddie was bowing out (wanted to send him an email - he put something on his blog, and that does not sound very good), Fathlete, sjf21 and jsbean have never been very active, I don't know what happend to Vic and Rame.

I will definitly have a look at the recent posts over the weekend. But I have to admit as well, that I am trying a little bit to limit my computer time.

 

Take care

YouYou



Edited by YouYou 2010-01-28 7:19 PM
2010-01-28 7:22 PM
in reply to: #2571242

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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL
Sesh - another swim question.

So today at master's the coach said I wasn't following through all the way, and was lifting my arm too soon.  So the rest of the workout I made an effort to follow through and all I can say is I was exhausted!  There were some muscles in the back of my arm/shoulder that were not happy with me.

So my question is, what makes some people really fast swimmers and others slow swimmers.  Obviously some people are gifted and it just comes naturally, while others have worked hard to get the speed they have.  But what I'm trying to figure out is what specific section of swimming is where most of the speed comes from.  Like do you get the most speed at the stage where your hands enter the water and you start to pull?  Or is it the middle of the pull?  Or is it this follow through stage that I've been missing out on?

And why is rotation so important?  I understand the head down, legs not dragging, etc. but I'm trying so hard to get faster and I feel like I'm stuck at a plateau.

Edited by karen26.2 2010-01-28 7:23 PM
2010-01-28 7:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL
There is a documentary on FitTV about Diane Nyad (sp?) marathon swimmer.  Some of the stuff she attempted was absurd.


2010-01-28 8:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL
GorgeousGeorge - 2010-01-28 8:29 PM There is a documentary on FitTV about Diane Nyad (sp?) marathon swimmer.  Some of the stuff she attempted was absurd.


Hmm, I'll have to schedule it for Tivo.  Was it on recently?
2010-01-28 9:58 PM
in reply to: #2571242

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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL
Hi everyone. Sorry I haven't been around much. I have had a crazy travel schedule and am just getting caught up on the posts. I am hoping things calm down in the next couple of weeks.

The swimming tips are very helpful. I am just starting to get back in the pool and it has been a little painful. I've always struggled with it and am considering breaking down and doing a master's class.

Also hoping to set up my HR zones this weekend.

Edited by sjf21 2010-01-29 9:08 AM
2010-01-29 4:13 AM
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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL
sjf21 - 2010-01-28 10:58 PM Hi everyone. Sorry I haven't been around much. I have had a crazy travel schedule and am just getting caught up on the posts. I am hoping things calm down in the next couple of weeks. The swimming tips are very helpful. I am just starting to get back in the poo and it has been a little painful. I've always struggled with it and am considering breaking down and doing a master's class. Also hoping to set up my HR zones this weekend.


Glad you're back Scott.  Starting back swimming is always tough.  I should have never taken 2 months off over the winter, but I did so now I'm focusing on all the things I learned before and am almost back to where I was last year.  It does come back.
2010-01-29 5:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL

karen26.2 - 2010-01-28 7:22 PM Sesh - another swim question.

So today at master's the coach said I wasn't following through all the way, and was lifting my arm too soon.  So the rest of the workout I made an effort to follow through and all I can say is I was exhausted!  There were some muscles in the back of my arm/shoulder that were not happy with me.

So my question is, what makes some people really fast swimmers and others slow swimmers.  Obviously some people are gifted and it just comes naturally, while others have worked hard to get the speed they have.  But what I'm trying to figure out is what specific section of swimming is where most of the speed comes from.  Like do you get the most speed at the stage where your hands enter the water and you start to pull?  Or is it the middle of the pull?  Or is it this follow through stage that I've been missing out on?

And why is rotation so important?  I understand the head down, legs not dragging, etc. but I'm trying so hard to get faster and I feel like I'm stuck at a plateau.

There's certainly a "gift" that some people have.  Namely body type.  Look at Phelps.  His upper body is insanely long in relation to his legs, and he's got loooong monkey arms.  That means he's going get an extremely long pull, which is a lot more propulsion per stroke.  Then it also helps that he spends 10k+ yards in the pool each day and has lat muscles that look like jet fighter wings.  It also helps that some people feel as naturally balanced in the water as they do walking on land.

I don't really know or think there is a point in the stroke where you gain the most speed.  It's sort of a sum of the parts kind of thing, but with a twist.  Hmmm... how to make this make sense.  Lets say you've got four parts to the stroke: entry, catch, pull, follow through, and the sum of that equals speed.  1+1+1+1=4.  However, let's say you don't follow through... however, because you don't follow through you've got to under rotate and you lose your entry point.  This also may have an adverse effect on your catch as your arm may be out of position.  So now, because you simple didn't follow through, you're at 0 (entry)+.5 (catch)+1 follow through+ 0 follow through = 1.5.  Fuzzy, made up numbers, but I'm what I'm trying to say is one bad element of your stroke causes problems elswhere, and it hurts your speed much more than you think. 

As for rotation... go stand under a door frame, on hand by your side, and just raise the other one straight up.  Don't turn your body in anyway, just raise your hand.  Now, turn at the hips and reach that hand up.  When I do it, I get another hand length in how "high up" my finger tips are.  However, it's more than just the extra distance to pull.  You should feel a stretch in your lats.  That's exactly where the power is going to come from.  If you rotate and get that reach, you're going to pull with your lats, not just your shoulders.

As for entry... are you reaching out to the side.   When doing the door frame thing above, move your arm out to the side and look how much reach you lose.  A side entry is also gonna kill the rest of your stroke.  Some people go to far out, some people cross their center line, and it's hard to know what you're doing if someone doesn't point it out to you.

As for follow through... if you stop just above the hip, and I see that a lot, then you've got to cut the reach short on the other arm, so you're double cheating yourself.  When you push past your hip (with my monkey arms I tend to get mid thigh), you've got to engage the triceps and back of the shoulders.  That's probably what you were feeling.  A good stroke starts with a bunch of power from the lats with a solid finish from your triceps and shoulders.

Then there's catch... are you "grabbing" the most water all the way through, not just with your hand, but your fore arm as well.

Then the pull... are you getting what you can out of it or are you giving up on the lats to early by having a straight arm pointed at the bottom of the pull.  Are you flailing your arm out. 

I use the following drills to work on this stuff:

Pull buoy-- work on my rotation, reach, and followthrough

Single arm--exaggerates the reach, isolates rotation

Catch up-- follow through

Fist-- Catch, believe it or not.  Helps find that extra catch with the fore arm

Finger tip-- gets that elbow up

Paddles-- helps control my catch throughout the pull

Oh, and on top of all that, you gotta have a kick that doesn't throw it all out of balance and do more harm than good

It's why I like drills so much.  There's so much going on in a swim stroke that you HAVE to break it down and work on things individually.

 



Edited by sesh 2010-01-29 5:17 AM
2010-01-29 9:21 AM
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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL
karen26.2 - 2010-01-28 8:34 PM
GorgeousGeorge - 2010-01-28 8:29 PM There is a documentary on FitTV about Diane Nyad (sp?) marathon swimmer.  Some of the stuff she attempted was absurd.


Hmm, I'll have to schedule it for Tivo.  Was it on recently?


It was called Art of an Athlete.  I have trouble swimming 50 yards and she was swimming 100 miles.  I hope you found it to watch, it was interesting.


2010-01-29 9:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL
Ok, so I went to PT yesterday.  For those of you who follow professional sports or even college for that matter are probably familiar with Dr. James Andrews of Birmingham.  He does all the high profile athletes knee surgeries, shoulders, elbows, etc.  Its amazing to see all the jerseys on the walls, especially NFL guys.  Drew Brees signed his "Thanks for fixing the money maker"  I thought that was pretty cool.  There were also pictures from other celebrities and high profile people.  Across my table was a giant picture of Willie Nelson he had autographed.  I couldn't read it, but just the picture of Willie in that setting was pretty funny.  There were a few pro guys in there going through treatment but I didn't really recognize who they were.  I had been there as a kid, but this was my first time to actually be able to appreciate all the guys that had come through that complex.  A redeeming quality of Birmingham I guess

Moving on....I told the guy about my hamstrings, he messed with me for a minute, then consulted the head guy, messed with me again, consulted the head guy, came back and had me lay on my back, knees up and push outward, 3 times, each time spreading my legs a bit farther apart.  Then he had me squeeze my legs in, and it popped.  It was deep down behind my "area"  I didn't know if it hurt or if it just scared me that much.  It was my pelvis snapping back into place.  Apparently my right hip was tilted forward and my pelvis was out of line.  I've always had a little catch in my lower back on the right side and in the span of about 10 seconds, this "student" released it.  I've been running on uneven legs for how long now?  I'm so excited that they found this out.  I do have to ask how no dr. found this and even recently the ortho that I saw that prescribed me to PT for hamstring pain didnt find it, but in about 5 minutes this UAB student did?  Must've studied it that day in class and remembered to look for it.  Anyway, the head guy said that it was like I had been running all these miles with 1 dress shoe on my right foot and barefoot on the left.  This was likely the cause of my other aches and pains as well

The last time I went to PT, it was a nightmare experience.  Absolutely putting me through the ringer with stretches that were so painful I almost passed out.  This was the complete opposite.  The hamstring stretches and quad stretches were light, and conducted on my own.  Apparently research over the last few years has shown that the old way of static stretching (pain stretching) is counter-productive due to the decrease in bloodflow to the muscles.  As soon as i felt a stretch, I would stop and hold for 30 seconds.

Anyway, great experience!  If all these other guys who rely on their bodies to generate millions of dollars can trust these guys, I figure I can too.  I can't run for 3 weeks, but totally worth it!.
2010-01-29 10:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL
Ohhhh, looky!  I got my first star!  Mom is going to be SO proud!
2010-01-29 10:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL

I think I heard that Mark Sanchez was in b-ham getting something done at that clinic.

2010-01-29 10:53 AM
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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL
sesh - 2010-01-29 10:50 AM

I think I heard that Mark Sanchez was in b-ham getting something done at that clinic.



Ha, yeah, I saw that on ESPN so I looked for him yesterday, but didn't see him.  Its a rather large complex though. 
2010-01-29 6:03 PM
in reply to: #2641705

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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL
sesh - 2010-01-29 6:16 AM

karen26.2 - 2010-01-28 7:22 PM Sesh - another swim question.

So today at master's the coach said I wasn't following through all the way, and was lifting my arm too soon.  So the rest of the workout I made an effort to follow through and all I can say is I was exhausted!  There were some muscles in the back of my arm/shoulder that were not happy with me.

So my question is, what makes some people really fast swimmers and others slow swimmers.  Obviously some people are gifted and it just comes naturally, while others have worked hard to get the speed they have.  But what I'm trying to figure out is what specific section of swimming is where most of the speed comes from.  Like do you get the most speed at the stage where your hands enter the water and you start to pull?  Or is it the middle of the pull?  Or is it this follow through stage that I've been missing out on?

And why is rotation so important?  I understand the head down, legs not dragging, etc. but I'm trying so hard to get faster and I feel like I'm stuck at a plateau.

There's certainly a "gift" that some people have.  Namely body type.  Look at Phelps.  His upper body is insanely long in relation to his legs, and he's got loooong monkey arms.  That means he's going get an extremely long pull, which is a lot more propulsion per stroke.  Then it also helps that he spends 10k+ yards in the pool each day and has lat muscles that look like jet fighter wings.  It also helps that some people feel as naturally balanced in the water as they do walking on land.

I don't really know or think there is a point in the stroke where you gain the most speed.  It's sort of a sum of the parts kind of thing, but with a twist.  Hmmm... how to make this make sense.  Lets say you've got four parts to the stroke: entry, catch, pull, follow through, and the sum of that equals speed.  1+1+1+1=4.  However, let's say you don't follow through... however, because you don't follow through you've got to under rotate and you lose your entry point.  This also may have an adverse effect on your catch as your arm may be out of position.  So now, because you simple didn't follow through, you're at 0 (entry)+.5 (catch)+1 follow through+ 0 follow through = 1.5.  Fuzzy, made up numbers, but I'm what I'm trying to say is one bad element of your stroke causes problems elswhere, and it hurts your speed much more than you think. 

As for rotation... go stand under a door frame, on hand by your side, and just raise the other one straight up.  Don't turn your body in anyway, just raise your hand.  Now, turn at the hips and reach that hand up.  When I do it, I get another hand length in how "high up" my finger tips are.  However, it's more than just the extra distance to pull.  You should feel a stretch in your lats.  That's exactly where the power is going to come from.  If you rotate and get that reach, you're going to pull with your lats, not just your shoulders.

As for entry... are you reaching out to the side.   When doing the door frame thing above, move your arm out to the side and look how much reach you lose.  A side entry is also gonna kill the rest of your stroke.  Some people go to far out, some people cross their center line, and it's hard to know what you're doing if someone doesn't point it out to you.

As for follow through... if you stop just above the hip, and I see that a lot, then you've got to cut the reach short on the other arm, so you're double cheating yourself.  When you push past your hip (with my monkey arms I tend to get mid thigh), you've got to engage the triceps and back of the shoulders.  That's probably what you were feeling.  A good stroke starts with a bunch of power from the lats with a solid finish from your triceps and shoulders.

Then there's catch... are you "grabbing" the most water all the way through, not just with your hand, but your fore arm as well.

Then the pull... are you getting what you can out of it or are you giving up on the lats to early by having a straight arm pointed at the bottom of the pull.  Are you flailing your arm out. 

I use the following drills to work on this stuff:

Pull buoy-- work on my rotation, reach, and followthrough

Single arm--exaggerates the reach, isolates rotation

Catch up-- follow through

Fist-- Catch, believe it or not.  Helps find that extra catch with the fore arm

Finger tip-- gets that elbow up

Paddles-- helps control my catch throughout the pull

Oh, and on top of all that, you gotta have a kick that doesn't throw it all out of balance and do more harm than good

It's why I like drills so much.  There's so much going on in a swim stroke that you HAVE to break it down and work on things individually.

 



Holy smokes - you do know your swim stuff!  I can see what you're saying, very good descriptions and particularly the equation you used.  I guess I never really thought about how it all ties together and like you say if you are not doing one thing right it's having an impact on something else.

That you for sharing you're knowledge.


2010-01-31 10:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL
Bump (to page 1)

So, I redid the max HR test and today I got up to 188.  The first time I hit 186 which I thought was a little low for me.  I'm not sure the 188 is my max, but I think it's pretty close.  Todays test was MUCH less enjoyable than the first time I did it.  Bordering on I wanted to die!
2010-01-31 8:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL
karen26.2 - 2010-01-29 6:03 PM
sesh - 2010-01-29 6:16 AM

karen26.2 - 2010-01-28 7:22 PM Sesh - another swim question.

So today at master's the coach said I wasn't following through all the way, and was lifting my arm too soon.  So the rest of the workout I made an effort to follow through and all I can say is I was exhausted!  There were some muscles in the back of my arm/shoulder that were not happy with me.

So my question is, what makes some people really fast swimmers and others slow swimmers.  Obviously some people are gifted and it just comes naturally, while others have worked hard to get the speed they have.  But what I'm trying to figure out is what specific section of swimming is where most of the speed comes from.  Like do you get the most speed at the stage where your hands enter the water and you start to pull?  Or is it the middle of the pull?  Or is it this follow through stage that I've been missing out on?

And why is rotation so important?  I understand the head down, legs not dragging, etc. but I'm trying so hard to get faster and I feel like I'm stuck at a plateau.

There's certainly a "gift" that some people have.  Namely body type.  Look at Phelps.  His upper body is insanely long in relation to his legs, and he's got loooong monkey arms.  That means he's going get an extremely long pull, which is a lot more propulsion per stroke.  Then it also helps that he spends 10k+ yards in the pool each day and has lat muscles that look like jet fighter wings.  It also helps that some people feel as naturally balanced in the water as they do walking on land.

I don't really know or think there is a point in the stroke where you gain the most speed.  It's sort of a sum of the parts kind of thing, but with a twist.  Hmmm... how to make this make sense.  Lets say you've got four parts to the stroke: entry, catch, pull, follow through, and the sum of that equals speed.  1+1+1+1=4.  However, let's say you don't follow through... however, because you don't follow through you've got to under rotate and you lose your entry point.  This also may have an adverse effect on your catch as your arm may be out of position.  So now, because you simple didn't follow through, you're at 0 (entry)+.5 (catch)+1 follow through+ 0 follow through = 1.5.  Fuzzy, made up numbers, but I'm what I'm trying to say is one bad element of your stroke causes problems elswhere, and it hurts your speed much more than you think. 

As for rotation... go stand under a door frame, on hand by your side, and just raise the other one straight up.  Don't turn your body in anyway, just raise your hand.  Now, turn at the hips and reach that hand up.  When I do it, I get another hand length in how "high up" my finger tips are.  However, it's more than just the extra distance to pull.  You should feel a stretch in your lats.  That's exactly where the power is going to come from.  If you rotate and get that reach, you're going to pull with your lats, not just your shoulders.

As for entry... are you reaching out to the side.   When doing the door frame thing above, move your arm out to the side and look how much reach you lose.  A side entry is also gonna kill the rest of your stroke.  Some people go to far out, some people cross their center line, and it's hard to know what you're doing if someone doesn't point it out to you.

As for follow through... if you stop just above the hip, and I see that a lot, then you've got to cut the reach short on the other arm, so you're double cheating yourself.  When you push past your hip (with my monkey arms I tend to get mid thigh), you've got to engage the triceps and back of the shoulders.  That's probably what you were feeling.  A good stroke starts with a bunch of power from the lats with a solid finish from your triceps and shoulders.

Then there's catch... are you "grabbing" the most water all the way through, not just with your hand, but your fore arm as well.

Then the pull... are you getting what you can out of it or are you giving up on the lats to early by having a straight arm pointed at the bottom of the pull.  Are you flailing your arm out. 

I use the following drills to work on this stuff:

Pull buoy-- work on my rotation, reach, and followthrough

Single arm--exaggerates the reach, isolates rotation

Catch up-- follow through

Fist-- Catch, believe it or not.  Helps find that extra catch with the fore arm

Finger tip-- gets that elbow up

Paddles-- helps control my catch throughout the pull

Oh, and on top of all that, you gotta have a kick that doesn't throw it all out of balance and do more harm than good

It's why I like drills so much.  There's so much going on in a swim stroke that you HAVE to break it down and work on things individually.

 



Holy smokes - you do know your swim stuff!  I can see what you're saying, very good descriptions and particularly the equation you used.  I guess I never really thought about how it all ties together and like you say if you are not doing one thing right it's having an impact on something else.

That you for sharing you're knowledge.


Ok, so bill knows his stuff....  
As for me, no drowning for 1000 yards today = success! 
In all seriousness, my breathing was a teet bit better.

Karen, thanks for noticing
2010-02-01 8:51 AM
in reply to: #2571242

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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL

Swimming is just so much different than training to ride or run in that it's a gazillion times more technical.  Sure, there are technical aspects to riding your bike, like fit and not "pedaling in squares", and to your gait in running.  But for the most part, the way to get better at those two disciplines is to do them more often and longer.  Yes, it can get a little more complicated than that, but really, when somebody asks how they can get faster on the bike, the simple and usually best answer is, "ride your bike, a lot, for about two years, then notice how much faster you've gotten."  You can throw in RPE, HR, power, etc.  But it really all boils down to the fact that you are riding and running a lot.

Swimming is just a different animal.  You've got to devote as much time to your form as you do the distance of your workouts.  Correcting a stroke flaw can provide more benefit to your swim than swimming the wrong way for 15k yards a week.  For weaker swimmers, training in the pool should almost exclusively be about finding efficiency and form.  At least that's my opinion.  You can take care of your fitness in training on the bike and run, but that's not gonna matter much if you get out of the water feeling like you almost drowned.

And it's not that hard to find it.  It just takes a lot of patience, and being humble enough to get in the water and look like a fool for a while.  Who cares, though.  You're in the water looking like a fool so you can be ready to bike and run afterward.  Most people won't even entertain the idea of doing something that hard.  And soon enough, the groove will come.  Then you'll be whining about the 10x100 descends after your kick drills, and dreading the 8x200 coming up in two days.  I know, because as much as I truly love the water (and am really missing it right now), I will not hesitate to be a whiny little ***** over my swim workouts.



Edited by sesh 2010-02-01 8:57 AM
2010-02-01 9:01 AM
in reply to: #2571242

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Subject: RE: Wyld Hair On A Tangent Group -FULL

And in other news... I'm gonna be the race director for a mini-sprint/beginner triathlon that our tri club hosts each May.  I'm not entirely sure I know what I just got myself into.

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