GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!! (Page 104)

Great Race Steve

TRACEY,

I agree with what Steve says here, based on my early experience with running.   My learn to run 'coach' and several other experienced runners advised me to slow down initially and that realistically, AND to prevent injury, it takes pretty much 1 year of running before you see significant changes in your run speed.  

I was quite fit from strength training and spin classes and found the running easy, so went too fast, too far, too soon; but my body (tendons, muscles, ligaments) was not used to this new activity and I had a lot of the problems you hear about with runners - ITB issues; hamstring issues; hip; calf - went through them all.     They can still crop up years later, if you don't take care with your run program and/or let yourself get carried away on your runs just because you feel so great that day and say - hey, I can run another 5km or do excessive speed work.    You don't need to do ALOT of speedwork to see improvements. 

That's why I am overly cautious now if something happens to interrupt my running; I go back at it quite slowly the first 2-3 weeks.    I want to run fast, for sure, but ultimately I want to be able to run for the next 20-30 years, so like to keep my  my running distances and speed just where it needs to be to get the desired training effect. 

Another bonus to going at it (speed) cautiiously, is that you will continue to improve for several years.    It will be disappointing to get the point where you know you can't go any faster.     That's another advantage of starting to run later in life - we can only improve while people that have been running since their 20's are seeing their times get slower and slower.       Have to look on the bright side!   

MANDY and STEVE -

How to "beat the sweet"? Here are a few things that have worked for me for HIM and IM:
(1) Baby potatoes, boiled, and put in a baggie, with salt sprinkled after. This can be carried in the Bento Box, maybe, or picked up in T2 and gnoshed on during the first mile or two of the run.
(2) Small ones, in the Bento Box or -as I did at IMLP - looped down onto the straw of my aero drink bottle. It looked slightly dorky*, but worked marvelously*.
(3) Mojo Bars, by Clif. Check these out! They are made with nuts and pretzels and stuff, and all taste at least as salty as they do sweet. That is, one is about 50/50, but the other two or three are 75/25 salty/sweet.
(4) Avail yourself of the chicken broth on the run (it'll be at IMSG, Steve; not sure about T-man, Mandy)!
(5) Avail yourself of any of the salty foods at the aid stations. Both races will have pretzels and chips, I'm sure.
(6) Others escape me now, but my dalliances with salty long-distance foods don't stop with the above. I'll kep thinking.


*Dorky? Well, desperate times call for desperate measures! (Admittedly, it looked like I was only one step away from attaching tassles to my bar grips, but what the heck.)
**Marvelously......until water from the bottle sloshed out and soggified the pretzels still there, which caused some to erode and fall off. But still -- the ones I had tasted great, added some calories, and delayed the onset of getting sick to death of sweet stuff.

ANNE -

Hey! You know them, too! The ones who were stars at 25, peaked at 35, and disappeared from tri when they were short of 40. You and me --- we'll still be going strong and improving into our ??s!

  


RIGHT ON!!!!       

Hi Anne:

Thanks for posting this. It's good to hear advice from others who've been where I am! I definitely want to avoid worsening the injuries I already have and of course sustaining any new injuries.

I always thought I was in shape too, from years of aerobics, kickboxing, etc, but as you say when you take up running it challenges the body in totally different ways.

What do you think of my idea (from an earlier post) of very gradually increasing my pace with each run?

Thanks!

Tracey

TRACEY -

Thanks for the response, and I will dissect and digest it later.

I found that article, which is in a current "Running Times" that might still be in stores. It is the April 2010 issue, and the cover shows a girl running barefoot. At the top, above the mag's title, is the banner: "Run Your Fastest 5K: Six Essential Training Elements". It will take me some time to distill stuff from the article that might help you, but I'll pick out one or two things for now.

THE SIX ELEMENTS
1. Stride Efficiency
2. Aerobic Endurance
3. 5K-Specific Endurance
4. Intermediate Fast-Twitch Endurance
5. Verstaile Race Pace Efficiency
6. Post-Run Recovery & Injury Prevention

Some of those make no sense in the absence of content, but I've listed them just so you know.

For Stride Efficiency, you are working at one aspect of that with Chi. The article says that "Technique drills involve variations of movements such as skipping, bounding, and marching. These drills are designed to promote muscle fiber recruitment, improve nervous system function, increase strngth, and correct muscle and form imbalances. Go to www.runningtimes.com/magilldrill to see some key drills demonstrated."

The second part of Stride Efficienct talks about Short Hill Repetitions, and seeing as how you mention hills and rollers near you, this might be something to try. The article defines short hill repeats as 40- to 60-meter sprints up reasonably steep hills, with the effort slightly less than an all-out sprint. It also notes that the repeats are meant to challenge your legs, not your lungs, with the legs feeling momentary fatugue but recovering quickly. It further says (all-caps mine): DON'T MAKE THE MISTAKE OF TURNING THIS STRIDE EFFICIENCY WORKOUT INTO A FITNESS SESSION. To do this: "After rach repetition we walk back down the hill, wait until afull two or three minutes have passed, and then sprint up the hill again. Eight to 10 reps will do the trick." Another recommendation is noi more than one session per week during the first 8-12 weeks of your 5km training. Now, even though you are looking at something that is 7 weeks away, in essence you are a work-in-progress, continually in training to improve your abilities at 5km; so, don't get thrown off by the 8-12 weeks part.

There is a great point in the 5K-Specific Endurance section, specifically as it refers to repeats (other than the hill repeats mentioned above): WE TRAIN 5K "EFFORT" RATHER THAN 5K "PACE". Intriguing concept, perhaps? It further says that "as our fitness improves, our pace will improve. But our perceived effort will remain the same, allowing us to become well-versed in the effort-level we'll use in the race itself."

There's more to this section as to specific workout guidelines, but I'll leave it here for now. Whadaya think?

And in closing, giving credit where it's due:
From "Solve the 5K Puzzle: An effort-based route to success" by Pete Magill (Running Times, April 2010).

TRACEY again -

As for the part about increasing your pace for each run, I'll be back to you in a while with another thought about that -- if I can find where I saw it! But think about what is in the above post -- training at effort, not pace. That's not to say it's the only approach or that I follow it myself....but I usually try to pay some attention to what the experts say!

TRACEY,

I read the following posts from STEVEB and I agree with him totally.   I have read and followed that advice and it works.  I don't try to increase my pace a little with each run.   I would do 1 hill repeat session per week or every two weeks and do a speed/track session once per week based on my current 5km pace (not what I WANT my 5km pace to be) and as I mentioned, you need very little speedwork and it needs to be based on your current weekly run volume.  

I have a book that I think is great on giving you the distance/pace you should be working at for your speed training to SAFELY get faster.   I will post that info for you later this morning.    I followed it last winter from December to April and ran my first 5km in under a 6min pace (km) and that was taking it conservatively; plus my 1st 10km at pretty much the same pace.

TRACEY,

This REALLY, REALLY works for me.   Whenever I do walk/run interval training, I will skip in the walk and my run intervals get progressively faster.   I always have negative splits in my training runs and races.  


For Stride Efficiency, you are working at one aspect of that with Chi. The article says that "Technique drills involve variations of movements such as skipping, bounding, and marching. These drills are designed to promote muscle fiber recruitment, improve nervous system function, increase strngth, and correct muscle and form imbalances. Go to www.runningtimes.com/magilldrill to see some key drills demonstrated."

Hi,

Tracey,
You mentioned you were trying to lose some extra weight.  If you lose that extra weight, there is a good chance you will be a faster runner.  Most articles I've read mention 2 sec/lb lost/mile.  That pretty much matches what happened to me - I lost 15 extra lbs and my 5k time dropped 33 sec.  Of course, there are all kinds of variables that can affect your time, but I'm pretty sure the weight loss was the deciding factor.  However, you also need to be careful about losing the weight gradually - you don't want to deprive yourself of needed calories when you're training.

Anne is totally right about gradually increasing your speed.  I think you should reassess your goal for the next 5k - maybe shoot for 10min/mile this fall.  Just my opinion.

Denise

Edited by LadyNorth 2010-03-30 9:53 AM

Hi,

SteveA,

I am so proud of you.  I really did not think you would do that well with the problems you were having.  Hope everything goes well now.  Just think, you're going to be an Ironman soon.

Denise

Hey Tracey - nope, no rhyme or reason to the color of the caps - it's just that this race, the pink cap racers followed my wave...which had a weird lime green colored cap. 

As for walking...I'm a HUGE fan of walking.  I'm a Galloway guy all the way - standard walk breaks early and often to keep the legs and mind fresh.  A little factoid:  I ran this course at the same speed I do my training runs, and on my training runs, I don't walk.  I really, sincerely believe that taking the time to walk for a minute or two every mile or two will make the legs fresher and actually let you run faster while you are running, and to run faster later in the race.  I really believe that for ANY distance.  I walked in sprint, olympic and now HIM.  I'll be walking a TON in the IM for sure!  LOL.

Hey Tracey -

I am with STEVE A - I have walked for a minute at every water station of the 4 marathons I have done (with the exception of the Goofy Challenge Debacle, where I think I walked the last 6 miles...SLOOWWWWLLLY...Ha).  I plan on doing that at my marathon in May.  I don't walk in training runs much really either (like STEVE A), but I do find that I have more fuel in the tank so to speak come the later miles if I do that.  AND I get hydrated without choking on my water while running.

Cheers,
Mandy

Thanks Steve,

Yes, EFS has amino acids in it, so I'll definitely need to have powder in bottles and add water later.  I'm hoping I can set my bike up with EFS that's been in the fridge overnight and dump a bunch of ice into the bottles in the morning to keep it cold until I'm on the bike.  Or do you think it's better to just have dry powder and fill them all when you start the bike?

The Heed - could have just been the flavor - but it's not at IMSG, so I'll give it another try later.

I don't mind the taste of the Gatorade at all, but I don't think the electrolyte profile is as good as the EFS and it doesn't have the amino acids in it.  So, I think I can switch back to it OK (I've been using it in training the last two months), but would prefer the EFS to  start with and hopefully create a good base in my system.

Hammy feels much better today.  I was nervous yesterday, as the ligament/tendon (what is that thing) that runs along the inside and outside of the back of the knee was very tender yesterday - the discomfort seemed much more structural than muscular in nature.  But today, I wake up feeling pretty darn limber.  BUT, I've decided to just swim tonight and give it one more day to rest, ice and elevate.  Plan for this week is:
Today:  1.5 hour swim
Tomorrow:  2 hour spin (easy)
Thursday:  75 minute swim / 75 minute treadmill run at 6mph or until there is the slightest amount of discomfort and under no conditions am I allowed to hit the increase speed button, no matter how bored I get.
Friday: light brick (30-minute ride / 30 minute easy run)
Saturday: 1 hour open water swim then  LONG ride - at least 2x up Topanga Canyon (must climb!)
Sunday:  easyish ride with the wife / 1.5 - 2.5 hour run (easy - no hills on this one)

Ugh, that's the worst!  I hope you're feeling better when you get up in the morning!

Hey SteveA
Fantastic job in the race. And thanks for such a detailed report.
Mark

MILEAGE INCREASES
Goal: Build To A Higher Weekly Mileage Without Getting Hurt

Usual Way:
- Start at your current average weekly mileage.
- Increase mileage by 10% each week until you reach your goal weekly mileage.

Better Way:
- Start at your current weekly mileage.
- Jump to a new level of mileage more dramatically, then stay at that level for a few weeks before making the next jump.


Intriguing, eh? Here's the rationale behind it, in shortcut quasi point-form:
-- Your body adapts best to a new level of stress by being exposed to that stress and consolidating the gains produced by that exposure before adjusting to more.
-- Adding a new level of stress week after week isn't the best way to reset your mileage set point.
-- From reknowned coach and exercise phsiologist Jacks Daniels: "Let the body adjust to something before we impose something new on it. Even if you're increasing only 10 percent every week, that's still something new. Your body never gets to say, 'This is where I'm going to learn to be, and then I'll learn to do it more or harder.' "
-- Daniels recommends once you're ready for a mileage jump, add one mile to each run you do in a week. You could take the same approach with time, by adding 10 minutes to every run you do in a week. Then stay at that new level for three to four weeks before attempting the next increase.


What do you all think about this? I've always been a 10 percenter myself, but next time I set about bumping up my mileage, I will try this, I think. Daniels has revolutionalized running about six times over, so what he says, I should try to do. Sir, yes Sir!


Source: Running Times, April 2010 (From the column "Usual Way/Better Way"; no specific author credited)







Edited by stevebradley 2010-03-30 1:19 PM

TRACEY -

See above for some thoughts that pertain to your thoughts about adding distance to each run you do.

DISCIPLES OF THE TEN-PERCENT RULE -

See post two above this for an alternative approach to building your mileage!

STEVE -

The bike bottle should be okay if you do what you are thinking of doing -- but only if it's going to be a cool day. If the forecast is for some heat, I personally wouldn't take the chance. As for the run bottle - especially the one at special needs, if you do that - I wouldn't chance it, regardless of temperature. You wll be leaving it off at about 5am, having mixed it at maybe 4am, and then it could be there for up to 12 hours (but hopefully less ) before you get to it. Uh-oh??

I like your week's plan, and I especially like the fact that you consider yourself "pretty darn limber" today. I'm not sure you've ever really referred to yourself that way before! (For the record, the last time I was "pretty darn limber" myself was August 23, 1960. )

I subscribe to the idea of having a good nutritional base in my system, so whatever you can do to get the best-for-you stuff into you, then do it. I am not a user of fuel belts, so for me I have to have my go-to stuff inside me by the time I start the run. Load up that bike, baby!

I'm much, much better today ---- but Lynn has acquired my pestilence. That takes much of the pleasure out of being well, and in fact I even feel somewhat guilty. Alas and woe.

STEVE B -

I like what you are saying from the Running Times article....I might pick the RT up this month. 

I usually try to do 10%, but in all honesty, in the past I have been a mile jumper - mostly because I have started to train late for things...This time I am training 10% and have this dang calf/Achilles Tendinitis issue (officially - it is where the AT attaches to the calf, not the heel that is bothering me)....makes me wonder if I should have stuck to jumping.

I like it.  I like it a lot. 

Mandy

MANDY -

It sure doesn't take much to make (some of) us rethink our training, does it? My time-honored (ha-ha-ha) approach has been to rest and that get back into it. frequently this works, and in fact even though i consider myself oft-injured, I'm usually good to go. But I am not very creative (or bold, or daring, or adventurous) to try new things on my own, which is why I value being exposed to new concepts that work for far wiser people than I.

As soon as I find that article (somehow, misplaced in the past hour), I will add one more part to it that includes a comment pertaining to 10% for people who are returning from an injury.

And when you referred to the "dang calf/Achilles tendon issue", does that mean it has started acting up again in the past day or two? Hope not!

MANDY again -

Ah-ha! Here we go! (It wasn't as AWOL as I feared, just buried.)

"Set aside the fact that the 10 percent 'rule' would take someone coming back from an injury six weeks to get from 15 to 25 miles per week. The bigger problem with it is arbitrary relaince on a nuumber system that has nothing to do with physiology. What do your muscles and blood vessels know about '10 percent'? Or miles, for that matter."


Hmmm.....
Later I will sit down and work through the math on the 10-percent approach versus adding a mile to every run on a given week, and then sticking to that for a few weeks -- say three. That would allow two "bump" cycles in the six weeks that are mentioned above for how long it would take for a runner to go from 15-25 miles, post-injury, using 10%.